Disclaimer: Massive wall of text, brace yourselves.


1. Outlining the situation.

So, there you have it. What has been predicted is becoming reality. Uthgard's numbers are declining, RvR is getting worse and worse (ouch!) and people realise it.

I do appreciate the attempt regarding the 25% RP bonus, but in reality I know it’s nothing but a drop on a hot plate. It’s insufficient, and anything but structural. The time for meddling around with a bonus here and there is over.


I've said this in another topic. DAoC is Number One in competitive MMORPG PvP. DAoC can beat the alternatives if it just does things right. For one, DAoC can remain healthy, even though a minimum of players will at least check things out at the other side. The situation on Uthgard today however, is not healthy.

The fact that despite this Uthgard is still in such a poor shape has driven me away from Uthgard, and thus DAoC. And clearly, I'm not alone. Some have been pushed over the edge by another reason than myself, but the fact remains that in the first place, DAoC has lost their interest significantly enough to be willing to jump on a new experience ASAP. Man up and face it, the only one to really blame, is the server setting itself. It's the hard thing to do, but if there's no courage to do so, things will never improve. Ever.



2. Defining the problem.

Ok, so I hope you (the reader) can agree that changes are necessary. The question is then: what are the problems, and what are the priorities?

DAoC relies on its awesome PvP to survive. So, capitalise on RvR. Make sure you know what's wrong with it and deal with the issues. Fix it as good as possible and leave the rest be as long as this isn’t fixed.



RvR then, but how exactly?

The problem here is twofold. On the one hand we have balance issues to deal with. On the other, we have player activity and RvR population. Both are entwined with each other and are responsible for the full RvR experience one would be getting. Poor balance can influence the RvR population, but a healthy RvR population can take a balance flaw or 2.


Let’s take a closer look at the problems we are facing regarding population.

IMPORTANT SIDE NOTE: POPULATION MEASURES HAVE PRIORITY OVER ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY RELATED TO BALANCE. ALLOWING PLAYERS TO ACTUALLY PLAY END RvR INSTEAD OF FRUSTRATING THEM OUT OF IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT IMPROVEMENT THIS SERVER CURRENTLY NEEDS.

BALANCE ISSUES ARE WORTHY TO BE NOTED, BUT ARE ALMOST NEGLECTABLE COMPARED TO THESE ISSUES.



• Player influx is too slow. This means that a player is simply wasting too much time trying to get back into the action after he has died on the battlefield. This factor works hugely demotivational to players, but not only that. It also makes the zones where the action is, or where the action is supposed to be, less action packed than they should be. If 100 players are RvRing in a certain zone, but only 60 of them will be there at the same time because 40 of them are making their way to the zone, things aren’t going well. Sure, one can’t expect an instant BG-style respawn timer or insta ports to the action, but there sure is room for major improvement here.

• The overall target group is too small. On Uthgard today, sometimes people are even getting blamed for participating in end-RvR “too early” (no full temp, no 4L2, not 50, …). This is completely absurd. End RvR needs to be the center of gravity for a server to be built around. End RvR needs all the players it can get, especially in times like these, and especially in OF, with its massive territory.
Instead of focusing on “preparing players for End RvR” by forcing them to cap BGs until level 49, in others words keeping them OUT of End RvR (the only place where one can truly be prepared for End RvR), turn things around and make sure they are enticed to join end RvR as soon as possible. Uthgard’s End RvR population could easily be doubled by reshaping the leveling course.
Not to mention, this is exactly how the real Classic DAoC handled things. I’m not saying it was perfect back then, because they also had the benefit of still being a new game, but everyone knows there was no hard standard to be able to have fun in End RvR. It was possible at any level above 35-40ish really, regardless of gear or RR. That is how it should be. It’s way more Classic than our current situation AND it actually helps solving the problem. Changing the patch limit is never going to bring back the Classic aspect of DAoC, reviving the Classic RvR feeling is.

It is important to note here, that when things go bad, they do not just go bad. The longer action stays too low, the more and more players will get fed up with their waste of time and follow others to the exit. This negative spiral is extremely dangerous and can only be reversed through intense structural measures. There’s just no way around this.



On the other hand we have balance issues. Even though their impact on the RvR experience is more indirect, they still are a factor worth mentioning, as they influence the level of competitive play. Well balanced gameplay will always attract, and most importantly keep players attached to the game. So the impact on population is definitely not to be underestimated.

Let’s try and do a breakdown of the balance issues we currently see on Uthgard.

• RA’s & Patch setting. This is the source of the balance problems on Uthgard. We’re running New RAs while running on an old patch limit. The problems it is causing are numerous and have been discussed a billion times before. Just to name a few: Viper, Purge 3 + no casting speed% (casters can’t solo), Cabby RR5, Charge, … It is clear that these issues need to be dealt with in a serious manner. Patch limit and RA’s have to be adjusted. The majority of changes here can certainly be done with respect to the Classic aspect Uthgard is trying to maintain, however some issues require “custom” measures simply because Mythic did not solve them in a Classic way. There is no way we need to copy obvious balance issues simply because Mythic has been too slow in fixing them, that’s completely idiotic and intentionally harmful to the gameplay of Classic DAoC. Nearsight and determination for hybrids (in case of Old RAs) are the two major candidates for such measures.

• Buff potions and charges. As we all know, the current system is forcing players that do not have access to casted buffs to pot/charge up as much as possible to increase their chances of winning. Note that this is an aspect that is entwined with the overall RvR target group. The more resources it takes for one to be able to compete, the smaller the target group and thus actual population. Hence, this is an important factor to fix. Potting/charging should not be removed, but polished and restricted so that it becomes more accessible to everyone. Also, another notable factor is the age-old S/C-problem. It is disproportionally hard to get this item, while in SI times it was reasonably easy to get for everyone. Stop this unnecessary timesink that is keeping players from RvRing and solve it in a smart way.

• Class completion. Balance is fragile and can easily be thrown off course. Hence, it is crucial to complete the classes and their abilities to make sure the changes made are made well and can remain in place. Class completion is an important factor here. The largest issue here would be the weaponskill issue, with mob & pet damage coming second. Thankfully, these issues are slowly but surely being dealt with. There is an intention towards making progress, so I will not address them any further here.


I hope my breakdown of the problem thus far is a fairly complete picture of the situation. You can’t solve problems without having consensus about their nature, which is why the above is a crucial step in finding the right solutions, which is of course the hardest part.



3. Solutions.

Keep in mind that the solutions I will be writing down here are not the only ones possible, however the general direction is undisputable. Changes made need to be drastic, structural and coherent. Loose shreds of adjustments here and there without staying aware of the scope of the problems will lack effectiveness. The changes need to pack a real punch to be able to revert the current negative spiral and turn it into a boost. It’s easy for me to write these last sentences, but I can’t press this fact enough. Be serious about this or you might as well sit on your ass and do nothing.


That being said, let’s begin.


RvR Population.
I’ll start off with RvR population, more specificly with player influx.

• Player influx: as the older generation knows, this has been a problem throughout Uthgard’s history. In Agramon, the ports directly to the zone were probably the best solution for that time and place. The population was at times just right for that type of action. In OF however, the population never scaled well with the size of the zones. The RvR population that is, since OF did bring a boost in player numbers, while the boost in actual RvR players was much less significant. Anyway, how to solve this?
I have been thinking about a porting system for Old Frontiers, similar to the porting system in NF. My idea goes as follows:

- Porting from the pad happens every 5 minutes on normal times. Every 3 minutes when population levels drop below a certain point.

- Home realms can also port to their own zones. By holding and claiming (by guild) a specific portalkeep in your own zone (these are predetermined and are one of the normal keeps, not relic keeps), this allows you to be ported to that keep with the regular ports as mentioned above by buying a ticket for the specific zone. These portalkeeps have no specific benefits such as better guards or doors. They also do not have a global warning message when they are under attack. This is the responsibility of the guild that has claimed the keep, as they will get a message when the keep is being attacked. They are still as strong as normal keeps, apart from the fact that enemy players can spawn there. Porting there gets disabled as soon as the first door is under 90%, OR when the portal keep is the only keep owned by the home realm in that zone. There are no portal keeps in the primary zones and the zones closest to the border keep (Emain Macha and Cruachan Gorge for example).

- In addition to the concept of these new portalkeeps, keepfighting should be more rewarding, with the focus on fighting. There should be no extra bonuses for taking the keep itself (apart from the fact that it might disable porting to the zone, impact DF control and hopefully influence the Relic Guards (as was on live)), but bonus RPs for killing enemy players near or inside the keep. This goes for both offence as defence. Upon killing an enemy during a siege on the offensive side, an extra bonus is given per kill. Upon killing an enemy during a siege on the defensive side, the same bonus is given. However, while defending a keep of your own guild, an extra bonus is given on top of that. Fighting for your realm should be rewarded, but same goes for fighting for your guild. Last but not least, a successful defense (there is no enemy activity around the keep for the full 5 minutes after a siege) will grant a RP bonus, with again the added extra bonus if the keep is claimed by your guild. This bonus is rewarded by the keep lord, and can be collected at any time after the 5 minutes have passed.

- Keeptaking missions can be a plus here.

My goal with this is not only to fix the player influx and thus RvR action levels themselves, but also to spice up keeps, their tactical significance and the encouragement for keepdefending and –taking.

Blue wrote: “2. Don't think keep taking should give such a reward. Keep takes should be made out of tactical reasons.”

I fully agree with this, and hope that a setting like the one I outlined here would live up to that. For instance when organizing a relic raid, one will now have to tactically take keeps before venturing to the relic itself if they do not want to get ambushed. They have 2 options here. Try and sabotage the ports beforehand by taking the less defended non-portal keeps discretely to not raise suspicion, or to take the portal keeps themselves with the horde that is going for the relic keep, fast and hard.
On the other hand, this system could work self-controlling. The home realm has good reasons to keep their portalkeeps active, while the invading realms can easily start assaulting the portalkeeps more and more if the nearby zones become too crowded, thus effectively pushing the port back.. This prevents players from spawning in the middle of the action. Or at least, that would be the wise thing to do for the invading realms if they intend to have a general idea where to expect their enemies to be coming from.

Fights for portalkeeps in cases such as the one above will be intense significant due to what is at stake, on top of that they will increase realm pride for both sides, the lack of which has been a valid point of concern for modern DAoC. Also, prominent guilds will stand out by capturing (and holding) the most important portalkeeps.


So far for player influx. Implementing a system like the one I just described would go a long way in reviving the players’ lust for RvR and I believe this measure to be one of the most important ones there. It’s a direct competitive advantage over servers like Eden, which is a crucial foe in the fight for players and popularity. This measure alone will significantly increase RvR action, however, keep in mind that this is only part of the tackling of the entire problem.



Next up:

• The target group. While Blue mentioned that DAoC is no casual game, I will agree to a degree. DAoC has been rather strict on several aspects, but one of the reasons why RvR was such a big hit, was because of its accessibility to the casual RvR player. Surely, casual is relative, seeing as these players already have experienced the non-casual side of DAoC firsthand, so they aren’t casual in terms of the typical “hold my hand or I quit”-type WoW player. What I’m saying is that flourishing DAoC RvR was free to join and enjoy for basically everyone who felt like it. How DAoC did this in the early days was through the obvious advantage of being a new game. The casual playerbase was immense and the servers crowded. The general level, skill and gear of the typical RvR player was poor. This allowed for a very hospitable RvR setting. Now, sadly, these times are over. But that doesn’t mean it is impossible to create a setting that strives to equal the same casual friendliness of RvR that has been seen back then. Uthgard is the only server that has the strength to accomplish this because it does not allow buffbots and requires you to level from 1 to 50. Without this, it would be impossible to do.


Let me explain how the setting I have in mind would work out to allow casual players to feel the urge to join End RvR out of themselves.

Step 1: Shift the BGs further down the scope. Make them start at level 15-19 and have the final one end at 40ish. For instance the last BG from 36-42. Make sure the RP rate is slow enough for players to be able to sit through the BGs without having to really PvE as long as there is decent action. (In the current situation you can get 2 or 3 levels before capping RPs and thus being forced out to grind, which is a shame, RvR is DAoC’s trump card and should be capitalized, as I’ve said before.) Also, implement the old BG tasks, such as take the keep etc, to give extra gold so that the serious BG player isn’t forced to grind his time spent in BGs in PvE after to make up for the missed gold influx. A good DAoC server reduces the need for PvE to be competitive in RvR to a minimum. PvE can always be done by those who like it, but those who hate it should be given the alternative, especially in DAoC’s case.

This all should do three things:
- The players who enjoy RvR can do so more intensely, without putting themselves behind on any aspect but drops, which they will still need to PvE for. However other than that they will see a worthwhile character improvement without sacrificing fun.

- New players will be able to get a taste of RvR WAY sooner than they can now. This way, the chance that they will keep playing is DRASTICLY increased. DAoC RvR is the trump card, like I said, and once new players get a taste of it, few of them still turn it down. It’s just too good. It’s absurd to have to grind through 30 levels, which is days of time, just to get to enjoy yourself. Especially to new players this is just stupid and they will leave the game thinking it’s a boring waste of time. Don’t let this happen! They are also looking for that one game, don’t fool them into thinking DAoC is boring!

- Last but not least, this opens up a whole new range of players that are going to end RvR without being fully optimized. In other words, a whole new potential casual playerbase. Now this is the tricky bit, as this isn’t 2002 anymore. Measures have to be taken to make them attracted to joining end RvR.


This is where Step 2 comes in.

In order to support the new casual playerbase, Uthgard does not have the ease of reality Mythic had when releasing the game. The key to enticing these players is not pure enthousiasm, but character progression. Any MMORPG player today will try to maximize fun, which is deeply connected with character progression. If your character isn’t progressing, chances are high you’re not really enjoying yourself much. Now, RvR is in general more fun than PvE, however if the character progression is only a fraction of that of the alternatives, people will avoid trying to RvR until the very last moment, like most are now, to maximize their chances of success.

To counter this, adjust the rewards for RvR and the rewards for PvE in RvR zones.

Improve the spawns (and possibly the xp bonuses and money gain) in the more crowded RvR zones so that even those who feel inclined to PvE will consider doing that in the RvR zone before anything. The more casual players reside in the zones, the more casual friendly it becomes to those casual players trying to make some RPs. It gives them a basic chance of finding equal opponents.

The most important improvement here though would be the increase in XP and gold for RvR kills for those under level 50. Instead of the x10 XP ratio in the BGs, grant an x25 or x30 XP ratio in end RvR. These players are not only facing higher levels, they are facing way higher RealmRanks on top of that. They have to face the extreme, so the rewards need to be according to that.
The gold earned can also be given double or triple the amount is is given now, also only for those under level 50 as we do not want to change the current gold situation for those already RvRing. I believe the gold earned by 50s in RvR now is just right.


All in all, these changes should provide the casual players the attractive opportunity of end RvR by granting them enough allies, enemies AND character progression to make it more rewarding and fun than any other form of character progression. I believe this is the only real way of coming close to a situation that resembles the real Classic RvR environment.



On a sidenote: it has been mentioned that the shifting of BGs will increase the re-rolling of characters by those who prefer BG RvR to end RvR. This might be the case if the ONLY measure taken would be to shift the BGs. Sure, if the RvR situation does not change, then it will lead to an easier ticket to BG grinding. However, the very reason the overwhelming majority of these players are doing this is exactly because of the poor situation end RvR is in now! If the problems regarding RvR as I’ve described above are significantly addressed, the majority of these players will follow to end RvR as will most of the server population.
The argument is therefore invalid. It relies on the situation to be as poor as it is to make sense, which is not a valid point of view when trying to improve things in my book. On top of that, this change would bring huge improvements to convincing newer players (even those who have never played DAoC or any other MMO before!) to stay, thus increasing the player base significantly. This increase is not worth giving up for that handful of BG grinders that A) (80-90%) would join end RvR if it was fixed or B) (20-10%) would grind BGs regardless of the fact that end RvR ever existed.




Balance Issues.
With RvR population handled, I will proceed to the balancing issues. As these are highly controversial, I will emphasize that my ideas here are only my view on how to create a Classic solution to these problems. Different choices can be made with equal result. The fact that the problem is acknowledged and open for solutions is more important than living up exactly to these solutions.

I’ll start with
• RAs & Patch setting. Now the discussion of both patch and RA setting has been going on for ages and is extremely controversial. I’m going to try to be as honest as possible about this and say that it can work both ways. You can have a legitimate Classic server with slightly adjusted New RAs and a patch limit around 1.8x. This is not such a silly idea, although I do not think this is an approach that will ever be backed up by our staff. Hence, I will focus on the other, more plausible route. Old RAs and patch setting 1.69.

Before I start I just want to point out that it is absolutely necessary to make “custom” (god I hate this word) adjustments in ALL scenarios in order to create a fair balance. The reason is that Mythic never got round to fixing balance well enough before they released several other expansion, destroying the clear line where they balance classic and where they add new stuff. It is silly to be unnaturally strict about this. No game is perfect from the start, but flaws will get addressed in time, the fact that they got addressed before or after a certain release is irrelevant to the fact that it is clearly flawed and thus in need of a fix.


In general, I see a couple of significant problems with the Old RA route.

- Det for hybrids: with Old RAs, Purge is on a 30 minute timer and they do not have access to any form of Det. This effectively puts them out of play for competitive RvR. Having a spell here or there just doesn’t add up to the fact that they can be endlessly kited. Especially in DAoC, where CC is king.
My solution here would be to grant them the Determination we see in New RAs, but without stoicism of course. It would be more expensive than Det for fulltanks, but at least they have the opportunity to go there, which is crucial.

- Nearsight. This has been an issue on Uthgard for ages because of the setting. Mythic acknowledged this problem at the time they were finishing off ToA. They had a classic solution in the pipelines, but decided to poor it into ToA at the last moment by adding cure nearsight.
My logical conclusive solution here would be to take the classic solution Mythic had in stall. Lower the full duration (without resists) to 1 minute, rather than the current timer. This will in reality make nearsight end up lasting just over half a minute, which is in my opinion reasonable. The current duration is extremely overpowered and forces players to collectively escape the fight OR purge. With Old RAs especially, there is no SoS for all realms and Purge is on a 30 min cooldown. Basicly, it will make it even more ridiculous than it already is; simply unbearable for competitive balance.
Adding cure nearsight is an option I do not rule out. I think it could be just as viable of a solution. The most important here is that the issue gets addressed.

- Buff shears. Buff shears have been imbalanced for a while now on Uthgard. I’m not exactly sure how they are on Uthgard today and how they would be on patch limit 1.69, but I believe some balancing is necessary here. I’m not 100% sure, but if for instance the Druids buff shears are the only ones that damage the target and thus break CC, they are in an immense disadvantage.
In current day DAoC, shears do not do any damage and thus break any cc, but there is a difference between ranged and cast time. Shamans have 1500 ranged, 2.0s casttime, Druids 1650, 2.5s casttime, Clerics 1750 range, 3.0s casttime.
I believe this setting to be the most balanced and interesting for competitive play as it adds the most to the gameplay. Other than this I don’t see immediate significant issues with the patch setting.


There are still some smaller issues which might need to be looked into further when taking this route, however these will need to be experienced and given feedback upon thoroughly before we can safely say what should be done about them. I’ll give a few examples:

- Healer power usage and spell effectiveness. Again, I’m not entirely sure how it stands with patch 1.69, but I do know this is before the patch where they fixed the power usage and spell effectiveness so that it is not “always best to just press spreadheal and watch the health go up”. It would probably be wise to also adapt the newer way of healing effectiveness, rather than reverting to a more dumbed down state.
- Purge being on a 30minute timer might be a bit exaggerated.
- Group purge giving CC immunity.
- See hidden or similar stealth RAs.
- …

These examples can also be found with the New RA route, there will always be smaller, less clear balance issues to be sneaking around when trying to find the best middle ground because after all, classic balance, as in real classic balance, has never been really done before. At least not clearly defined by Mythic.

The most important here is that a decision gets made and that the significant issues get dealt with. The rest of the possible issues are there, should not be forgotten, but are easier combated after testing, feedback and in-game experience.



Next up:
• Buff potions & Charges. This has been a highly discussed topic, although there is a general consensus about the issue, and even about the solution outlines. Similar to the poison abuse, where everyone was clearly supporting the eventual measures that were taken, I believe a solution for the issue here is definitely legitimate.

The idea here was to make 2 changes. 1. Change the timers of the buffpots and charges. And 2. Implement a max. number of buffs through pots/charges at a given time, not including health/mana/endu reg/dmg add/shields/ablatives (including AF buff tho!).

The timer should ideally be changed to 20 minutes as it is unnecessarily bothersome and expensive to keep these gadgets up and running throughout the run. Having to think how to waste as little of their use as possible and thus sometimes getting frustrated using them is not doing anyone any good.

However the most important here is the cap on them. Put a cap of 2 the max number of buff charges and pots to balance things out, with maximum 1 charge. This allows for players to chose their specific needs, without forcing everyone to only use charges. 2 buffs is not too much, not too few. The community has already acknowledged that this would be a reasonable solution for the problem. This would actually even reduce the need for the first adjustment to an extent, which is why this is by far the most important measure to be taken in this regard.


In regards to the S/C charge problem. My personal favorite would be to put it on a mob that can be killed with 2 or 3 lvl 50 players in an RvR zone. Perhaps something like Kobil in DF, but then in one of the RvR dungeons. Again, the most important aspect here is the fix, not the way how.




As stated above I will not address class completion here.





On a final note; I think guard tasks are a disgrace to DAoC RvR and real solutions should definitely make them end up in the trash can. In fact I think they should get removed already, but frankly I'd rather have solutions first.









So then, here we are. Finally. I hope I have been as complete as I could about this, since it’s not a little problem either. Feel free to comment and ask, but please, stay on topic and preferably stay constructive. Thanks.

Edit: prioritised RvR population measures.

TLTR...

Well, most of it is bullshit anyway. Still the Hurrdurr charge is creating imbalances. Actually the meta we are currently running is overall quite balanced in 8v8, with some few exceptions due to bugs, not setting.

Also, shears are functioning properly with the newer version of it.

ZaiQQ wrote:Well, most of it is bullshit anyway. Still the Hurrdurr charge is creating imbalances. Actually the meta we are currently running is overall quite balanced in 8v8, with some few exceptions due to bugs, not setting.

Also, shears are functioning properly with the newer version of it.

Charge IS creating imbalances. It's not that noticable in 8v8s, sure, but in smaller fights, casters are being completely ruled out by Charge, Purge 3 and the lack of castspeed.

Btw please inform me of this meta? It still can't escape the nearsight problem though for one...

How do shears work on Uthgard now then? Isn't there still a discrepancy between range and casttimes in favor of Clerics?


Edit: To call "most of it bullsh.t" is quite rude. You might want to specify a bit, such as "most of the balance issues are 'bulls.t'", ty.

Zarkor wrote:

ZaiQQ wrote:Well, most of it is bullshit anyway. Still the Hurrdurr charge is creating imbalances. Actually the meta we are currently running is overall quite balanced in 8v8, with some few exceptions due to bugs, not setting.

Also, shears are functioning properly with the newer version of it.

Charge IS creating imbalances. It's not so noticable on 8v8, but in smaller fights, casters are being completely ruled out by Charge, Purge 3 and the lack of castspeed.

Btw please inform me of this meta? It still can't escape the nearsight problem though for one...

How do shears work on Uthgard now then? Isn't there still a discrepancy between range and casttimes in favor of Clerics?

Other realms got their shear bonuses implemented, they did quite a while ago now.

Casters arent completley being ruled out by charge or purge, it is something you deal with. (Runemaster got rr5 to almost completley negate the charge duration, eldritch got his speed, menta got his blind, sorc got his SoI, theurgs would have their rr5 if it wasnt bugged, which are the main utility casters anyway) Just because someone has purge3, doesnt mean he should get 2-3 immunities at the same time. He purges mezz? root, nearsight, stun. He purges something else? then go ahead and mezz instead, and lock down the demezzer.

Escaping nearsight can be done in several different ways, preferably by occuping the nearsighter directly from inc, before he gets a chance to utilize the utility, and make sure to not let him escape a tank, cc, nearsight. Most of the time you can simply avoid nearsight by positioning, pushed nearsighter usually means dead nearsighter. (Should mean, at the very least) I'm more then perfectly fine with purge1 on the classes that suffer the most from nearsight, because guess what, even if you get nearsighted its not always such a big deal. If it is, you got your purge for it. Not every group is running a nearsighter either, alb hybrid isnt a standardized setup, only the competetive hib groups run with a eld, still plenty of mid groups running without runemaster. Nearsight really isnt such a big deal when you learn to deal with it, if your nser gets nsed he's most likley in a bad spot with no regard to the other nser.

*wall of text hits you for WTF damage*

Having skimmed your little piece, a few notes:

Many problems have to do with half-done implementations, bugs and missing features. This you cannot fix, because Uthgard has essentially no more people that actively develop it. So that's that.

Player mentality is another thing - those people who really *want* to RvR, do it - irrespective of the short-comings or patch levels. To be fair, I would imagine there is also a number of people that fall in between the 'wants' and 'dont-wants', but overall you can absolutely RvR here. It's just that the majority choose not to because no one is building them a zerg, or they are not in the least bit competitive or whatever.

Entry-barrier - yes, that is an important concern and frankly, I am all for less PvE - but that brings us to another main point: Blue does not want to compromise his vision of the server and the vision is slow-ass grind and timesinks galore. I vividly remember the debate we had over the completely senseless introduction of RvR sickness after release - Hibs were very happy to have another 2 mins added to the downtime, no doubt. Funnily enough this wasn't even live-like and proven, but here we are, still getting numb feet from standing in the rain outside of Druim Ligen while the NPC healer laughs at us ^^

The people running this server are not game designers and don't strife to be. And any discussion about that subject - with oftentimes well argued and elaborate suggestions on how to adjust DAoC to better fit Uthgard's circumstances - ended in a locked thread and/or the infamous 'not live-like' argument.

Take it from me - or go ask Griselda - debating all this is pointless. And that is my final point why I think people are leaving. They are tired of it all. And frankly, if you are a sucker for 'RvR' - as in 'epic fights, roaming the land looking for enemies' - guild wars 2 is that way -->

Zarkor wrote:So, there you have it. What has been predicted is becoming reality. Uthgard's numbers are declining, RvR is getting worse and worse (ouch!) and people realise it.

Interestingly you said this often over last 3 years and numbers have not changed and inbetween even improved to nearly 1000 players at one time and we had way more bugs back then. In the last days I watched OF population peaks and we still are at 170 in OF even with D3 on the market. You don't get tired of predicting the doom. Where was you as we had 900 players in January?

We know most of the problems on Uthgard and still there has to be time to crawl through all of them one by one.

PS: While looking through posts I also stumbled over your original OF proposal. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=10985
There are btw other structural problems which make it difficult. Some highskilled FG's facing random pugs. Same problems we always had.

Your suggestions in general does not seem to match our server settings either.

My best suggestions to you is to create your own server, hire some staff member, and create the DAoC you want.

What you described is in large portions not Uthgard, and wont be in the future.

Many things described seems to be patchwork to fix missing features or bugs.
Which you should know is not how Blue (or any other developer on Uthgard) works when dealing with missing features and bugs.

Balance is quiet fine, go play 8v8 and you ll see it is balanced as it is (except jugernaut).
All your balance issues are just not a big deal. And Daoc isnt designed for small men and will never be.

Zarkor i think you are taking too many assumptions in your argument.

The main one is that you assume Blue wants to create a custom server, which doesn't resemble 1.69 at all, just to keep more people here.

Another assumption is that you think Blue cares how many people play this.

A third assumption is that Dev's have the time or patience to deal with those 2 or 3 items you listed as they each require intensive reworking.

If, after finally fixing DP, Mob Damage, Pathing, AI, Character Skills, and reverting to a fully implemented 1.69 they might then consider some of the suggestions. But i wouldn't be surprised to see this taking another 5 years or so.

And here I thought this was going to be a positive post. More negativity. Bleah. I don't think the numbers are in any jeopardy. I just see people lobbying for changes they want and making these forums.... uncomfortable, in the process.

anyone read this horrible looking textwalls?

ZaiQQ wrote:Casters arent completley being ruled out by charge or purge, it is something you deal with. (Runemaster got rr5 to almost completley negate the charge duration, eldritch got his speed, menta got his blind, sorc got his SoI, theurgs would have their rr5 if it wasnt bugged, which are the main utility casters anyway) Just because someone has purge3, doesnt mean he should get 2-3 immunities at the same time. He purges mezz? root, nearsight, stun. He purges something else? then go ahead and mezz instead, and lock down the demezzer.

Escaping nearsight can be done in several different ways, preferably by occuping the nearsighter directly from inc, before he gets a chance to utilize the utility, and make sure to not let him escape a tank, cc, nearsight. Most of the time you can simply avoid nearsight by positioning, pushed nearsighter usually means dead nearsighter. (Should mean, at the very least) I'm more then perfectly fine with purge1 on the classes that suffer the most from nearsight, because guess what, even if you get nearsighted its not always such a big deal. If it is, you got your purge for it. Not every group is running a nearsighter either, alb hybrid isnt a standardized setup, only the competetive hib groups run with a eld, still plenty of mid groups running without runemaster. Nearsight really isnt such a big deal when you learn to deal with it, if your nser gets nsed he's most likley in a bad spot with no regard to the other nser.

Basicly what you're saying is that you can deal with it. It's true, you can deal with it, at least with new RAs u can to a degree, but it shouldn't be as much of an issue as it is. Also, I'm talking about nearsight more in terms of Old RAs, where it WILL be an enormous issue if not dealt with.

As a smallman, charge isn't something you just deal with, you get raped or you have to blow your RR5 if you even have one that can remotely save your ass.

Tanks have an advantage in this setting, is all I'm saying. It's not gamebreaking, I'll agree on that, it's just a point I'm making.

Lasastard wrote: Take it from me - or go ask Griselda - debating all this is pointless. And that is my final point why I think people are leaving. They are tired of it all. And frankly, if you are a sucker for 'RvR' - as in 'epic fights, roaming the land looking for enemies' - guild wars 2 is that way.

It's just sad that they have all the ingredients to make this happen. They even want it Classic. It's perfectly feasible to do it that way. What we are running now is more custom than my proposal to implement Old RAs, go 1.69 with healing fix and nearsight + det for hybrids. Those are 3 "custom" balance fixes in total, which have been proven to be in line with Mythics idea of how it should be, while maximising Classic. It's so much more Classic than what we have now...

Blue wrote:Interestingly you said this often over last 3 years and numbers have not changed and inbetween even improved to nearly 1000 players at one time and we had way more bugs back then. In the last days I watched OF population peaks and we still are at 170 in OF even with D3 on the market. You don't get tired of predicting the doom. Where was you as we had 900 players in January?

I'm talking about now. Surely all those players mentioning this don't just say it to annoy you... Anyway, I don't want to be nitpicking about this. Even if the numbers were the same, the issues are far too important for that.

Blue wrote:We know most of the problems on Uthgard and still there has to be time to crawl through all of them one by one.

Well, what about my proposal for the RvR influx then for instance? It's actually quite similar to the one I made in the topic you mentioned, yet this gets ignored every time, while in fact it is the most important aspect of the entire RvR problem and solution.

Trishin wrote:What you described is in large portions not Uthgard, and wont be in the future.

How does it not reflect Uthgard? Old RAs were planned, 1.69 was/is in the pipeline, old BGs have been a welcoming thought... My proposals make Uthgard more Classic than it has ever been. I don't see why I should be making my own server when the thing you guys want to do, if done right, can actually make this server boss.

borog wrote:The main one is that you assume Blue wants to create a custom server, which doesn't resemble 1.69 at all, just to keep more people here.

Another assumption is that you think Blue cares how many people play this.

We ARE playing on a custom server. Have you forgotten we are running some 1.7x patch with New RAs? You can't get much more custom when you pretend to be Classic really... In fact, I'm basically asking for less custom, with the biggest balance issues dealt with and an improved form of OF player influx (similar to NF). Staff has acknowledged the last issue by putting in horses, sadly this isn't sufficient. Also they have shown to be capable of customising RvR influx as seen in Agramon and the different stages.

Also, I don't really care how many players play on this server either. I do however care about the way the server plays and whether I enjoy my time spent on it and I know I generally feel like I'm wasting time. This can be helped, and if done so, more players will come. If the player numbers were static at 800, thought the gameplay resembling something more along the lines of what I put down, I'd happily drop any other game and vote this my permanent game...

Zetetic wrote:And here I thought this was going to be a positive post. More negativity. Bleah. I don't think the numbers are in any jeopardy. I just see people lobbying for changes they want and making these forums.... uncomfortable, in the process.

It's called constructive criticism. I didn't know that equals negativity in your book.

ZaiQQ wrote:Actually the meta we are currently running is overall quite balanced in 8v8, with some few exceptions due to bugs, not setting.

pweet wrote:Balance is quiet fine, go play 8v8 and you ll see it is balanced as it is (except jugernaut).
All your balance issues are just not a big deal. And Daoc isnt designed for small men and will never be.

Get a load of these two