Improving the Agramon Supply System.
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Ok, so I decided to make my post again in a new thread that is intended to be filled with thought trough ideas and suggestions instead of the usual 'I don't play' or whatever statements that floods the other thread, cancelling out the opportunity to create a Decent discussion. It's a long read, I admit, but I too want to have a better and more attractive RvR system that works for everyone, not just solos, not just FGs, so be sure this is for you if you are interested in end RvR, which I think we all are.
So currently this is how it stands: - Camps, Agra porting and guards are removed. - Closest zoning point are the frontier keeps (Dun Crauchon, Bledmeer Faste, Caer Benowyc) - That option gets cancelled out when one or more frontier keep towers are taken. - Only option when not holding towers is taking the boat from the central keep (Dun nGed, Caer Boldiam, Glenlock Faste). - Boats only work for the friendly realm, thus making it a one way trip. Some issues: - It is not the 'getting to agramon' that is the problem, but getting to the enemy is. There are no hotspots, no 'common' routes and no way of telling where the enemy might be besides for stealther or grp reports, siege messages and killspam. The only bottlenecks are the bridges and roads to Agramon, which might aswel get bypassed by boats especially when the enemy realm doesnt hold all their towers. I have to admit searching enemies (even when you know there are some) is tireing and demotivating at times with the current system. - Running/sailing to one side (Hib/Mid/Alb) is not that bad, but it kind of is a pain to run the whole end back when there are no enemies in the zone you first went to. Agramon has become a 'running trough' zone instead of an RvR zone. Action is centered around keeps and towers, which are very spread out with Agramon lying inbetween. - Some players are demotivated to play in the current system, which only creates a negative spiral. - Action at lowpeak hours is way too spread out to be insteresting. This is similar to solo / small grp action which often goes hand in hand with low peak hours. Suggestion: 1. Goals: - Make the actual RvR zone more concentrated without neglecting the supply chain (towers and keeps have a meaning in getting safely/swiftly to Agramon) - Not locking zones down with camps, guards and perma ports, thus eliminating every form of supply chain and possible initiative to go outside Agramon. - Make it more logical and faster for players to encounter enemies. Make Agramon the main RvR zone again instead of a trip in the outdoors to the enemy keeps. Currently the keep areas are the main RvR zones instead of being an extension of Agramon. - Make RvRing more attractive, looking for enemies should not be harder than the fight itself. 2. Means: - Implement a port system to Agramon. With the following aspects: * It will port to random spots between the Cata tower (where the roads to the MGs split) and the very beginning of Agramon land (end of the bridge). This to prevent camp porting and thus decreasing the need for guard while keeping a buffer zone between the MGs and the porting area. * Porting will be disabled when the realm loses 2 of it's keep towers in order to sustain the supply chain but prevent taking a single tower (for instance for DF) to instantly enlarge the RvR area, for instance on low peak hours. * Add 2 or 3 roaming realmguards in the spawning area to help prevent camping and spawnkilling. However these guards have more use than that. They will provide a softborder to the Agramon RvR zone (if implemented correctly, together with the supply chain), instead of the hardborder camps created (no incs behind camps + dangerous move to come near camps, ranged guards). Besides that they will also provide a way to show yourself as an enemy by killing a guard. This will create the same alert message the camp guards used to have. Upon death they will send a message reaching everyone in the RvR zone (up to border keeps), saying that a guard was killed together with the number of the enemies nearby. This will significantly help people at low peak hours find eachother without having to run to eachothers keeps. - Implement the keep porting system (supply chain) differently in the following way: * The loss of 1 tower just affects DF status, not the porting. * The loss of 2 towers will disable Agramon porting AND perma kill the roaming realm guards as long as the tower remains in enemy hands (so that people taking DF towers don't destroy the Agramon softborder during lowpeak hours, but at the same time allow a way to relatively easily disable the porting if really wanted.) * The loss of all 3 towers disable porting to the keeps. (Crauchon/Bledmeer/Benowyc) By making it the third tower instead of the first, it gives the defending realm more time to counter, thus making taking towers more challenging and dangerous, since defenders can still port to the keep next to you, which also attracts more and more action. There's more at stake and it's easier to get to the enemy. (For instance during relic raids, you will have to work on 2 towers and the keep or just all 3 towers if you want to cut down the supply chain instead of one tower. However relic raids should not be taken lightly and will always need a great force, so I dont think this will create a problem.) * The loss of all 4 towers and the keep will of course grant the enemy realm porting options. (- Create the possibility to enable an RvR channel accessible to the whole realm. For instance "/rvr on" will make you enter the channel and follow the need for RvR support or just updates to the current situation, even when you just created a new char because you couldn't find a group on your main. This should make RvR more accessible to all 50s, whatever char they are on. Of course this is a matter of realm goodwill, if nobody uses it, it becomes useless.) I hope you take your time to consider this and discuss in a mature way. ~ Update: Roaming guards + More sofisticated and lowpeak friendly supply chain + left out timed porting (I have no opinion about this and would like the staff to use whatever system is best) + Added lowpeak/solo issue ~ Last edited by Zarkor on May 06, 2009 13:20, edited 2 times in total.
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hey =)
i am fine with it how it is... great would be another bg large bg for 50er like old emain macha but an sg would be camp then each amg/mmg/hmg but there is the problem .. to much people just zerg .. a high rr group or in europan called sg is rulling there ports to agramon sucks .. any zones before agramon still not exist.. i liked the way to camp roads to agramon when people solo or some low level groups running to there.. a dream is a zone where 8v8 4vs4 2vs2 still exist but that is a dream how many people chain grey people.. its a human thing u wish to pwn.. for me i think its cool when u have a big zone..... a really big zone like running from glenlock to agramon u know.. but there arent alot of players.. the problem is most people dont run solo/duo/trio just waiting for fotm 8vs8.. no reason for me to play daoc in a 8 people group to have fun In Battlegrounds u camp the spawn keeps.. u kill some one.. no exp/rps worth lol just /quiet.. so i think do a larger zone sure u will need more time to find people but then its this thing worth...... sg's are the point that sucks immo or zerg |
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With actual system playing a solo toon just doesnt repay. You spend more charges/bps that you make, you waste potions for nothing. Solo rvr is dead just like i foresaw.
Thats why you hardly find soloers, and duos, being unable to gank soloers anymore, and being ganked by fg's, stop roaming too. Its like the food chain that broke. No soloers no nothing. |
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what i use to do is:
1. take guard killmission 2. take boat to emain or hadrian´s wall 3. kill some guards -> killmessage should encourage inc 4. if no inc continue personal guard slaying / if inc outnumbers me: QQ ^^ 5. suicide at guards. i don´t waste time runing solo in agramon.. |
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very simple:
many players on uthgard are solo or duo players, this is a fact. without the porters solos/duos cant play any longer because there is absolutly no inc for them, just running, running, running and finally dieing to a fg. the playerbase is way to small to provide an active 4 zone rvr where you can find enemys at every bridge. also solo players cant adapt the new system by joining groups because people dont invite them since they got solo classes. because of that solo/duo players have to log to a twink bg char or (as myself) log off since the game is not fun anymore. ****** concerning fastfood rvr doesnt kill the fact that waiting 15-30 minutes for an inc is not fun, so dont try to argue. so in general you have to decide: - implementing the new system, which is meant for a larger playerbase results in a great playerloss, since solo/duo players are not able to adapt it and will quit the game (many already did, look at lwrp stats) or - implement the old system or a similar one with agra porters, which brings back hotspots for solos/duos, giving fast inc and a lot of fun. this change will result in more solo/duo players and will not cause the loss of 8v8 players at the same time, since they could also play at the old system. i would suggest you simply accept a bad change and repair the damage |
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~please read:~
Instead of just giving the same message like on the other thread, try to read the original post and give feedback regarding that. I'm not asking for feedback about the current system, that's what the other thread is for, I'm asking for feedback on the proposal I've laid out here, in relation to the current system. Think further than the current system and open your eyes, I KNOW that it's hard and unattractive for soloers now. I know things have to become a bit more solo-friendly, but what I also know is that we can not go to the old system again, it's just creating a fugly form of RvR I do not want to see again. So please, tell me what you think of what I'm suggesting here. Thanks |
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to topic opening:
/agree not much more to say than - staff listen to this best way to improve the no camps (which I like) and still keeping the OMFG I WANT INSTA PORT people 
zarkor u hit the nail here |
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You do not show how a timer on teleportation would prevent camping. My first thought was: it does not prevent camping, but it eases it. With a fixed timer a camper can set his clock for next enemy contact which is much easier than to be on constant watch. Also it is much more difficult for others to come to help the victim, when it is attacked. Hence Timed Teleporter would make camping incredibly easy for stealthers. Also the influence of a timer for buffing and sickness is not made clear by you. In the best case the timer enforced on the player would not lead to additional waiting time, but only in the best case, because without a timer everyone would be able to wait exactly the time needed. So it is in no way clear what purpose the mentioned timer would fulfill at all. Even in best case it would have negative effects and therefore is best left out.
This idea is not layed out very well. There is missing any comment on how groups are teleported. Also, again, the effect on camping is not covered thoroughly. It is correct that camping stealthers have more difficulties when the teleportation target spot is not clearly defined. But you do not make any observations on what effect this has on the victims and their backup. Spreading people over an area will also raise the chance, that stealthers at one position will only have to deal with one enemy. For many players backup is their most effective weapon against stealthers. The old Agramon Porter System was much better suited to fulfill your goals. |
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I uderstood the time part as re-use timer on teleport, because teleport that works only every five minutes seems as a nuissance, I know we want to be hardcore and everything but I don't need to have everything
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First of all thanks for the first constructive reply. Your bringing up some valid points and I agree that random porting will not be a 100% safe route to agramon, but guess what, that's not what it's supposed to be. Imo it needs to bring u there, not comfortly give u time to buff, take a look around, kite some enemies from a safe haven, ... The random timed port will protect against campers in certain way because you can not know what's porting, either it's one solo, one xp grp or 3 fgs. You don't know which makes it either free rps or suicide. Thus making campers think twice to stand right there instead of a bit further so they can pick targets better. Groups will be ported member by member like the old port, people will get ported and get spreaded out a bit due to random ports but that just makes you have to be more cautious and ready when porting. Imo there should be no easy and safe route to an RvR zone, after all it's RvR, not a trip to Starlight Lake and a picknick and Timber Gap. |
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Yes this would be a good idea imo. |
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I would say random port to area between bridge and Milegates, Camping would be very difficult then, cause there is not a single spot for stealthers to camp on. In the area between bridge and labby tower you only have to stand on road to catch every solo. I don't have to port to a safe zone, but a death area is not prefferable either:) However I support the whole random port idea to the fullest as Zarkor suggests.  <br> |
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Well this last week has been very frustrating for me. I play mostly on my Hunter Swifty. I play US evenings basically 8:00 -12:00 AM CST. Last night was the culmination of what this server has become. Over the course of 4 hours I managed to see 2 enemies burn 20 buff potions, grand total of 2k Realm points only because I did 3 guard tasks.
Previous to these changes there was a food chain that seemed to feed the action. This is all about psychology of the players and risk/reward ratio. The biggest thing removing camp and port has done is discourage Xp'ers and solo's and duo's from coming out. There is a sort of chain reaction when the system is working right especially in what would be considered the non Euro primetimes. Xp'er's give the solo'ers and duo's something to hunt for. Then the deathspam or calls for assistance in broad bring out other small groups sometimes leading to bigger groups roaming and so on and so on. System message saying Supply guards were killed also sometimes would promote action. I know if I would see those messages it would get me to port to camp to hope for some action. I can't tell you how many tells I get a night asking me if there is any action out in Agra. This is all about psychology, people play this game to relax and have some fun. If they head out into the frontier and see no deathspam for 15 minutes and no signs of any action they just get discouraged and give up, nobody wants to waste their precious time. Now I will try to tie this into what the OP was asking. Suggestions bulleted ** **5 minutes for the port is too long, maybe more like 3 minutes. **All people on the port should port to the same spot not each individual to some random spot. **More hasteners need to be added in various areas around Agra to facilitate movement. I don't mind taking a boat to get to the Hib or Alb zones, but the problem is if once I get there I can't find any action I'm stuck. So discouraging with the prospect of running 20 minutes to check the other realms area for action, most time I just end up suicide on guards and if I have not seen any deathspam or reports of action I consider giving up at this point. **My suggestion make the docks work for anyone from any realm or add another dock that will work for people from any realm if you want to have a protected dock for some reason. More has to be done to get the XP'ers back in Agra. I Xp'ed 2 toons to 50 in Agra almost exclusively from levels 40 to 50. The guard camp provided a bit of cover and safe haven and a place to meet other that wanted to XP in agra also. Now that this has been removed some sort of extra incentive has to be added to encourage XP'ers back into agra. The XP bonus used to be better than it is now, I think it needs to be bumped back up again. The Xp'ers are what can be the catalyst to get action going especially in the off hours. **maybe try to create some hotspots offer RP bonus for kills in certain areas to try to draw action to those areas. This would have to be thought out carefully maybe only if less that 15 people in the area, only bonus for groups of 3 or less etc. **Maybe have some random Guards or special mobs that could pop up anywhere that give some RP's. random spawn spots and a repop timer that would prevent farming abuse. Maybe even some sort of global message that this guard or mob is under attack or what zone it has spawned in. Make these killable by a solo 50 but maybe make them have alot of hitpoints to expose the attacker for some risk of an enemy to engage them. I have other ideas too but too many to list for this 1 post. The idea is try to make Agra a fun place for people to go and not people feel like they are wasting their time for no reward if the action is slow. If you provide incentive and fun to draw more into RvR zones this will also promote more action. I know during these non primetimes there are alot of players that do want to RvR, but they just end up in BG's or crafting or Farming DF as if there is no incentive or action in Agra they rather not waste their time. Last edited by swiftfist on May 05, 2009 21:26, edited 1 time in total.
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cant u cap the group maxium of a total to 5 people..?
maybe just for some areas or lower caps .. dunno i seen that on another mmorpg but there it was port zones.. |
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