Statistics on RvR Population in Thid since BG announcement
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What is the reason to RvR in Thid then? Sure, there are things that could be done about frontiers RvR to mitigate some of the issues arising from the low population on Uthgard (compared to the number of players the maps were designed for), but at the end it's about fighting the enemy realm, or not?^^ All this boohoo about frontiers RvR being so hardcore is ultimately rooted in not enough people going there, and probably not the other way around. More people in RvR = more Rps for everyone = incentive, right there. Not sure what magical intervention or change people are waiting for to make it fun? RPs for keeps and all that stuff are just meant as a bit of a motiviation boost to get people to go out into the frontiers, but it must not be a way in itself to progress in RvR; otherwise they could start handing out RPs for killing mobs (oh wait, they did that :p). I will agree tho that perhaps some temorary measure (in addition to finally fixinf the bloody relic/keep system...) could help kickstart things once Thidranki is gone. But the current staff has never been particularily great when it comes to community interaction (like hosting a few RvR events to show people that there in fact enough active players to make the frontiers fun).  |
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In the frontiers it takes easily over 15+++ minutes to find enemy players that are potential targets for casual players. In Thidranki, it takes +/- 5 minutes. Yes, more players around will definitely improve this situation, but the question is how to KEEP getting these players to come out. In other words, telling everybody to "just go out" is not a solution whatsoever. It has been proven to fail. Also, the current charge/pot system is ridiculous. It's possible to still go fullbuffed, but now only the most hardcore players can afford to. Instead of providing an improvement for casual RvR, they have now made the sitaution for casual players worse. The incentives for non-50s to go out and actually look for enemy players to kill is ridiculously low. Why would anyone not want to maximise their character before heading out? The enthusiasm of Classic DAoC doesn't exist here. Frontier RvR should be so fun, rewarding and exciting that players prefer to RvR instead of farming up for that last extra Charge, Abla proc, level, Jewel, ... In Classic DAoC most of these players RvR'd because they were so enthousiastic about it. Today, nobody is enthousiastic about bringing their lvl 48 RR3 toon out for a tiny chance of encountering an enemy, with an even smaller chance to actually gain something from it. But then again, it takes a lot of thorough RvR improvements which will always end up as a watered down version of what they were supposed to be. It's quite clear that this server isn't going anywhere interesting any time soon. In defense of truth-to-experience.
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I think you misunderstand my post, because there's no reason to quote my post and reply with that. I have been saying the same things you just said here. The guy I quoted seems to group removing thid with a direct decision to NOT add incentives to go to RvR. I said they are mutually exclusive, so his statement is invalid.  <Telus>
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You can apply the same scenario to thid though. Casual player comes into thid at 44 to take a break from pve and do some rvr. Runs out from portal keep in random gear he has, encounters twinked 49 templated character. Stands no chance. Dies. That's about as equal as 4L2 templated 50 running out to AMG and encounter rank 10 soloer and....dies. Answer? Zerg. Everyone in thid already zergs anyway, so in emain 2 rank 4L2 vs 1 rank 10. 2 group of low RR pug vs high rank 8 man. <Telus>
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He's got a point there Zarkor. |
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True, and it works in Thid because there are other, likeminded players around to actually form a zerg, or whatever number of players needed to beat that maxed out opponent. It also doesn't matter that much which classes they play because the enemy will be within walking distance.
In the frontiers it's an entirely different story to be honest. There's way less likeminded players around and there's no way to 'just go out' because 'just going out' takes at the very least 10 minutes of your time and probably a handful of costly charges and pots on top of that. Should you lose your encounter, you're on your way for another 15 minutes (rs) of doing nothing worth logging on for. Some casual fun that is! In defense of truth-to-experience.
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I agree Zarkor, I just dont know why there is that divide.
As Top, myself, and several others have pointed out, it would be more casual and fun for all IF the casual players went out. You are correct, that the time investment along with the chance of coming up with nothing and having to go through the rebuilding process is a deterrent is spot on, but IF more casual players went out then the chances of failure would be greatly reduced. As it stands now, as a casual player, you will be sitting around either waiting to join a group or building your own group for between 10-45 minutes. You get a group, you run out and either A) find nothing or B) run into a fg of high RR that roll you. If there were more casuals out then you could add option C) to that list which would be that you fight a comparable pug group and would encourage more action. I think everyone understand the reasons why players prefer Thid over Frontier RvR, but remember alot of these reasons why BG's are better will change. No more release back to insta action. Now they will have to release and wait for ports. Also, now they will not be able to fully experience their toons but rather will only get a very watered down version of their toon. With the old settings players would usually wait till lvl 48-49 before going to Thid because they wanted all of their skill's, toys, and wanted to be able to not be a green/blue con versus a much higher level player. Now the BG re-rollers can still do this, but they wont have all those nice skills that you gain in the upper 40's. Now if lets say they have a reaver, they will have to experience leviathan in the Frontiers since they will never have it in a BG. (Was just the first example I could think of) |
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I understand your point but it's merely a cheap work around that doesn't address the underlying problem, so the problem will continue. Seems silly to remove some players fun to try to force them into frontier RvR, instead of making it more rewarding in the first place, which could be done by tweaking already existing variables.
Yeh it's a good point. But people know Thid as a casual place, they know not everyone in there is going to be full SC'd with pots/running with perfect set groups. I'm guessing this is why, among other things such as quick travel-action, there's (probably) more action in BG's than in the Frontiers because I for one don't see the Frontiers as a casual place.
We've already been through this, I'm sure every casual player that might want to go frontier RvR can just pull 15+ other like-minded players out their ass, after spending hours in the first place trying as a 1FG pug to beat that high RR group, to warrant needing a zerg in the first place, but hey, the advice we're seeing repeatedly from the experienced forum warriors is to just tell them: "Zerg", guess it must be pretty easy and worthwhile to do, they're just doing it wrong.
True, yeh it would be more casual and fun IF the casual players went out... but why aren't they going out? You really think Thid and BG's are the problem and not the frontier itself? There's a divide because it's not fun for certain players, and thus they don't want to do it - so they don't.
True, they HAVE to now, or go do something else they find fun, in Uthgard or elsewhere. Why do people think this isn't an option for players? If you removed end-game RvR from Uthgard, what do you think will happen to the players that found it fun, that they'll stick around and Raid/PVE as much as they RvR'd?
This is true and I'm sure you'll find some players that will level to 50 because they're already close to max'ing their char, and can use it for Raids, maybe they'll try to experience RvR on it, but I don't think the casual Mana Ment/Non-Det tank player is really going to want to stick around in the frontiers you're all desperate to force them into.
You're describing the re-rollers I guess which is true, but you still get much more other people that come to Thid at any level, in any gear, for pure RvR fun, (the casual players we want to encourage to play actively in the frontiers!) compared to people going into the Frontiers sub 50 for pure RvR fun.
I don't think BG re-rollers as you describe, really care about their toys or missing out on high level skills. I think they care about having their fun with what they're able to use at the level of the BG they choose to play in. As above, if they've done with the BG's, if they level their char to 50 after that it'll probably be used just as an extra raid char. You guys seem to understand why the casual players aren't going out into the Frontiers, but all your posts amount to is to blame BG's and saying 'If only more people went out in to the Frontiers...', without talking about how to get them out past removing what they previously found more fun. |
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Well, my answer to your post is the reason players dont go to Frontiers is because BG's are flat out easier and faster. Why cook a fancy dinner that requires hours of work and preparation when I can just pick up some fast food on the way home? They are not going out to Frontiers because its faster, cheaper, and easier to stay in BG's. Its not a big mystery. Now the BG's wont be as easy and fast or nearly as fulfilling, since they wont have near cap level skill and wont have insta action after release. Say what you want, but people want to hit 50 and cap BG's on their toons. Some may go out and experience Frontiers because of this, most will probably just continue re-rolling. I doubt you see any sort of custom fix to make Frontiers more palatable for casual players since the GM's hate custom solutions to problems. So the next best answer was to get rid of the temptation to stay in Thid by removing Thid. I'm certainly not claiming that this will fix the problem, but I can say w/ almost certainty that it wont hurt the problem any worse then it was before. Those that want to re-roll will probably keep doing so, and those that want to make a toon work in Frontier RvR will also do so with just a tad bit more work attached to their toon. |
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So why don't we learn from this and try to make it easier, faster, more fulfilling in the frontiers? As an example, you (I think) have spoken in other threads/posts about promoting xp'ing in the frontier - I avoid frontiers and I avoided Marfach on my last char because the gold/loot is complete and utter pants, despite the xp bonus, atleast in DF there's seals which is why, a long with the xp bonus, it's a RvR hotspot. I agree with you, I just don't understand the work around when there's seemingly quick and easy alternatives.
This is what I said 
Which is a shame considering all of their existing custom features. I would like to think promoting Frontier RvR is a good reason for a custom feature, even if it was tweaks to existing features. |
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ha, ron. now you get owned by someone with bigger walls of text to any comment you do... what you gonna do now
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Lol, true enough Holsten.
I agree with you Haylsia on the fact that they could do a TON to promote casual RvR. Zarkor has posted TONS of custom features that could have a positive effect, I've posted a few myself, and many others have posted countless ideas of ways to promote Frontier RvR to casuals and all have been met with the same response from GM's.... Its not live like at 1.69 patch settings. You point out that we already have many custom features, but as you have seen recently, those custom features are being removed one at a time. Sure, some things will always remain custom just due to the nature of the server (animist shroom cap, no buff bots) but things like customizations to zones to promote action in the Frontiers is not something the GM's are interested in. At least not from what I can see. Just a few ideas off the top of my head as ways to promote casuals to go to the Frontier would be to make gold/salvage items drop at a higher rate in areas. Add more high level mob camps with more mobs so groups xp'ing from 45-50 have a place with the 50% xp bonus to camp at. Add higher bonuses to keep defenses. I think the xp bonus is high enough, but maybe jack up the bonus for rp's if you own a keep in the area you are in. I believe the easiest way to jack up the amount of people in frontiers RvR would be to add reskins or effect scrolls for bounty points or some other sort of "visual" reward for another form of currency earned from RvR so people with tons of BP's couldn't just cash in on all the good stuff. This has been brought up on several occasions and always shot down. There has been many other ideas floated around, all of which met the "not live like at 1.69" argument. After being here and waging the same argument that you are for almost 4 years I've just learned to take that statement as dogma. I almost find myself more often than not on the side of the GM's because even when they try to make a custom solution to ease the pain for the players, we the players turn around and throw it back in their faces and try and use that as argument against them. Just look at this current situation with the BG's as an perfect example. Everyone here in the forums knew the BG setups were custom. We all knew it was only a matter of time before we lost them. The GM's finally say we are losing them and add that they will implement another custom BG to mitigate a little bit of the sting from losing the current situation as well as a 25% rp while dead, since so many were upset with 0 rp's when dead. How did we as the players respond? 80% threw a fit about the change itself and the other 20% complained that they made another custom fix.... Damned if they do and damned if they don't. |
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It should actually be 15 per animist, not 30. Someone really ought research what the radius is for "too many pets in area" (live is now limited to 5 + 1 controlled, but the area should be similar. You could also test theurg pets. I believe its 100 pets but the area radius is yet unknown) |
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For 1.69? What is your source for a shroom cap in 1.69, or am I missing something? Shroom caps came during New Frontiers. The cap in 1.69 was your power/casting speed. Before the nerf of stacking power fops, an animist could in theory cast shrooms non stop until they started dieing. In fact, a bunch of /level 30 animists shut down emain on lancelot in 1.67-1.69ish by filling amg with hundreds upon hundreds of shrooms, not even the decent 8 mans could SoS past AMG it was so bad. |
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http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Pat ... rsion_1.69
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