svperstar wrote:

Liss wrote:Ah, a thread about the main reason I gave up healer solo RvR.
Horses became popular!

So then why didn't you buy a horse if they are so OP?

Also I see many solo healers in emain. Why don't you try asking them what they do different then you.

You just should reread Liss's Post. Whats the advantage for a healer with a horse compared to a Reaver? There is almost none. But the Reaver get Speed he shouldnt have to.

Paper daoc

Solo healer

So sitting here in jury duty I finally find myself bored enough to post on this topic. There are maybe 3 to 4 posts that clearly state how mounts influence rvr. But people who support the otherside of the argument have not written one thing that would sway me to think horses have no effect on rvr. I am indefferent on this subject but it seems there are some people who have very limited experiences with other classes. Specifically playing other classes. That being said I think it limits their ability to look at this issue constructively. With all that said for me the issue is clear cut do horses influence rvr and the conclusion I've come to is yes they do even if it is situational or rare. My opinion on the best fix is to make them extremely sensitive and not remove them out right.

I actually agree with Apogee on his post. I have always stated that other than a little experience on BM, the only classes I know well and have played extensively are hunter and ranger. I also acknowledged that Liss' post clearly showed some problems with the current system. I'm not denying there is a potential problem with mounts, even though I dont see these issues materialize in RvR very often. My only argument is that removal of mounts from an RvR zone also screws over people. Now people that have spent 15-30p for a mount have paid for a fancy horse to run around PvE zones. They already offer these PvE horses that cost like 450 gold. So why pay 15-30p for one?

My solutions are simple:

1) Maybe slow the speed of mounts down to slightly less then caster speed so they cant use them to GAIN ground on other speed classes. Now when a trio or non speed class comes running up on a mount and you have your speed up you can still get away or at the very least they cant catch you on their mount speed.

2) Make ANY form of attack (mez/root/amnesia/debuff/nearsight) remove a player from their mount. Also, make it so the timer listed below doesnt begin till the mez/root are over rather than starting the timer when it hits you. This should be changed anyways. I've never understood why things that dont cause dmg are not considered an attack. A debuff/mez/root/nearsight are all attacks even if they dont do dmg.

3) Turn the recast timer for mounts up to 1 minute. This should make it much harder for people to use mounts to get back into a fight that has moved a long ways away from them.

I believe if you did these 3 changes than you would still have a viable use for mounts while eliminating 99% of the problems posed here. Sure, you could just remove mounts from RvR zones altogether and achieve the same results with much less work, but now you have players who have invested ALOT of money into a mount with pretty much ZERO use.

I would also throw out the suggestion that IF they lowered the speed value's of mounts that they do something to increase the values of the mounts. Maybe give 4 extra bag slots on a RR5 horse and 8 extra bag slots on a RR10 horse or something similiar. That way a player feels that the mount justifies the expensive price tag and would have very little if any impact on actual RvR. At least I dont think being able to carry a few extra recharge stones, poisons, or whatever you would put in your bags would be game breaking.

I guess I should clarify a few things.

RonELuvv wrote:Also, your comment about reavers, friars, etc was a bit confusing. You said "they move faster" and that they would rupt you, but those classes cannot be mounted, moving at you, using a form of rupt and stay mounted. That cannot happen with the setting the way it is. Now yes, maybe they run up to you not on a mount then after rupting you they would call a mount, but with the settings the way they are they would need to wait 20 sec to call out a mount + the however many seconds to get it called out. By that point you would have speed up and have a good head start on them. Also the only range that would have a speed boost that you mentioned is ranger and they dont need the mount with their speed shout.

You missed the point here, but it is understandable.

I would have to spend points to reach 45 aug to get my top speed, by doing so I would sacrifice healing and cc capabilities. Even if I did do so, and went for 49 aug (rather pointless considering how bugged dmg shield is here), I would still get access to a slower speed than a rr5 or rr10 horse would provide for a mere 15/30p without a single sacrifice for the owner.
Because of this I could not outrun the person even if I dismounted him. He would gain ground when both of us were with speed, and I would kick my own speed by trying to kick him of the mount, at which point he could simply use an instant rupt on me, breaking my spell and speed (maybe not even his own speed if he used a dd charge back then), and gain significant ground since I would have to turn around and continue moving.

Heck, back then mez and root didn't kick you off the horse, you got cc'd on the horse!

You also have to remember that I have to drop range to even begin casting. Then if someone drop a snare on me I am dead. If they drop a dot on me, they will be able to get speed up before I can (uth bug), and I am dead.

RonELuvv wrote:As to your example of the stealther that used the mount to jump into a fight faster, I dont know if that is a valid reason. If he is in clipping range of seeing the fight I'm sure he will be able to get their in time normally to add in. Sure, the mount might make it easier, but if I'm a stealther and I'm in clipping range and watching a fight I'm going to add in then why unstealth and call a mount when I can just stay stealthed and work my way down there w/out revealing myself? Or instead of waiting the x amount of seconds to call the mount instead just unstealth and start sprinting. It will take you awhile to get up speed and most stealthers have a ranged attack of some sort.

The simple answer is time.
It is not sure that you would reach the combat in time to add, if you did not use your mount. With the use of the mount you would get in range, and be able to at least leech rps, compared to otherwise where you might not have gotten anything from it, or maybe instead even lost your life.

RonELuvv wrote:Now people that have spent 15-30p for a mount have paid for a fancy horse to run around PvE zones.

This is a bad argument.
To get the rr10 horse is a waste of 15p in the first place, since it does not really give you any benefit over the rr5 one, and now you want to refund people that money...
It is still a small cost, compared to how much people lost when they introduced red buffs!

---
You also have to remember that this is just some situations, I have not even bothered to go into 8v8, ZvZ or small-man benefits of horses.
To be perfectly honest if we fight a caster group, and I get left behind as a berserker, I will mount up and get back into a fight I should have been completely out of.

---
As for solutions, I guess you have two options.

i. Make any spell casted on a rider kick them off, be it shear, instant dex debuff or what not. Then increase the use time to 3 min out of combat, and the summon time to 30 seconds where you have to stand still. Also reset the timer upon /release.
Doing so would prevent most abuses, and the increased summon time is the big one, because that is a core problem really.
It would also not affect people who use the horses for travel.

ii. Remove horses from all RvR zones (not just df), and give them inventory space.
This would still make the horses useful to own.

svperstar wrote:

Liss wrote:Ah, a thread about the main reason I gave up healer solo RvR.
Horses became popular!

So then why didn't you buy a horse if they are so OP?

Also I see many solo healers in emain. Why don't you try asking them what they do different then you.

They are op for the chaser, not so much for the escapee, since you have to stop to summon it (and by that sacrifice precious distance).

Do you honestly believe I have not been in touch with most of them?
Most of the time also before they even left the battlegrounds.

Extra Bag Slots?

If I recall right, Blue stated he liked the idea of placing limitations of inventory space when ridding barrels. Needing to compromise space to determine whatever combination of potions the user would choose to use. Before it was somewhat possible to run fully potion-buffed or have every potion to match each situation. However you can still do this, you only have limited space in the field. Thus require more trips to refresh and restock.

On live players would place rams into their horse inventory. Here it's a normal occurrence to Strength and Strength/Constitution shear(or debuff) players carrying rams to to produce a "root-like" effect as they become encumbered.

Blue wrote:

HulkGris wrote:First, let me say just how much I *hate* bag and bank slot restrictions. There will be no bag/bank slot limitations in our game
- Mark Jacobs, Camelot Unchained -

Should be part of the game. At least weight then. Limits are usually there to make you think.

Abydos wrote:Furthermore as to the discussion on bottles and/or draughts - The ability for both solos and group players to carry large quantities of potions that provide instant power, regen, or other buffs have a dramatic effect on balance in both RVR and PVE.

Although that discussions pertained to barrels/bottles/droughts, having extra Horse Bag Slots would produce a similar effect.

~

Slow the Horses down?
-The fact they have a speed bonus is the entire point of this imbalance discussion petition. Even if it's not as fast as a speed class, it's still an advantage over those that do not have speed. Especially when it comes to fighting larger numbers on mounted horses. Some players that do not have speed may want to just avoid certain players/classes all together, but find their selves being forced into battle unable to dodge these mounted players. Or they may have speed, one enemy manages to extinguishe it as the rest of his mounted group rides up. Slowly but steadily, it is a loss.

A longer timer to whistle-summon the mount (30-seconds)?
-That only addresses some issues, but still ignores many. Again a player may run into the previous example of being forced into a battle they wish to avoid. What if they mount up prior to encountering players? The longer summon would only barely help during an existing fight. That is, if they managed to avoid a combat-flag while their group mates are engaged. Already mounted players are at an advantage. What if you're alone and you encounter some Tank+Shaman duo? The Shaman could simply keep at bay and do nothing as you are unable to dent the tank due to their superior buffs, and therefor superior damage/defense. Or what if you engage the tank, but don't become aware of the Shaman until later in the fight. He could just stand there chilling at distance as you probably already have used your toys that could have possibly dismounted him. Even if you had some available, as long as he paces himself just out of your range on a horse. . . you'll never catch him.

A longer reuse after being flagged out of combat?
- 1-minute would never address even many of the common encounters, especially after I already stated a player could be Mezzed/Rooted/CC'd/Kited for an entire minute, then immediately be able to summon the mount right after the effect expires (In-Combat flag expired during the duration already). 3-minutes? That might address a lot of the possible encounters, but not all. During Zerg-Warfare this may be an advantage point for a few as the fights could possibly last that long.


Dismounting Players . . .
- At least become sensitive to all actions to force this. It would still be imbalanced however if a player must force an unusual approach just to dismount a player. As some have already mentioned, it kills your speed, kills your positioning, places you closer to your opponent. Still some players neglect to consider you could be fighting multiple mounted foes. It's not always possible to dismount several players at a time.

Liss wrote:They are op for the chaser, not so much for the escapee, since you have to stop to summon it (and by that sacrifice precious distance).

Yup-Yup! Just add an "s" to the end of "chaser" and your fate is usually sealed. Although they can still be beneficial and influential to escapees, it's the chasers that usually have the greatest edge.


So many "What-If" advantage arguments that could completely be eradicated by just disabling the speed feature of the horse in the frontiers. It should not be a "viable" option to run mounts in the fronteirs. Find a friend to speed travel you around, whether that be a Bard, Warden, Enchanter, Minstrel, Sorcerer, Theurgist, Skald, Runemaster, Healer or your local Hastener.



Friendly lil' dudes . . . (They are mutes on Uthgard unfortunately.)

Imo, make it so being mounted gave you a 3-5 sec delay where you couldn't cast/use items/go in to melee etc...
So you have to spend time dismounting first.

Then you keep the advantage of being able to get from a to b faster, but puts you at a disadvantage if you meet people.

Or have you be equal to a 5 sec grapple after you are dismounted, which gives no root immunity, but pins you to the ground for 5 secs.

As it is now, mounts:

1) Shouldn't be here
2) Gives you speed you shouldn't have
3) Puts non-top speed classes at a disadvantage compared to having mounts
4) Has no disadvantages

I am though very confident Uthgard team has it on their to-do, to remove mounts entirely from RvR zones, and just compensate people with a house+5 cottage deeds.

RonELuvv wrote:1) Maybe slow the speed of mounts down to slightly less then caster speed so they cant use them to GAIN ground on other speed classes. Now when a trio or non speed class comes running up on a mount and you have your speed up you can still get away or at the very least they cant catch you on their mount speed.

I am honestly shocked. Didn't you read/understand ANY of the further posts? Different people tried to explain it with a lot of examples: As soon as there is any Speedbonus at all there is an unfair advantage. It is not livelike. It had a very big influence on the last 2v2-tournament. How could you miss this point?

The level of ignorance by some people is just incredible.

As mentioned a few hundred times before, mounts are giving some classes access to an benefit they should not have within the targeted patch level, which leaves them with an highly unfair advantage!. And no, there is no way of fixing that besides either taking away the speed from the mounts or just remove them at all!

And I know you peops would most likely be sad because it would highly increase your travel time. But that's how daoc worked back then, that's how it should work here. You can either group a speed class or just "walk" like you're supposed to

when ther was time where you cant sprint with horse it was nice couse horse had slower speed with trasnportaion duty only at rvr areas
after blue added sprint compatibility on horses it geted worse fro casters and speeders

for example on my friar with self endu and lw i can run faster with a horse on afg alb runing with out pala endu speed at sorc speed...
thnk how it affects teh outcome of rvr stiation i can cath that fg they cant get rid of me i can able to add all of theri fights or help tehm wia healing rupting... and even if they are fg tehy cant get rid of me.

seems horse speed shoud be loverd fom speed 4 to speed 2 and sprint wont be cumulative on speed of horse...(except if blue adds a sprint for horse ra like gallop)

zeno pls reread the thread. lowering speed will not fix anything. are these 2nd forum accounts of some ppl since they all ask for lowering speed while it is clearly shown that this would not fix the exploit status of horses?

Justbard wrote:It is not livelike.

Here we go again...Please try to refrain from making this statement. You want livelike? We can go back to no horse routes in OF and 15 minute port timers also...unless u want to pick and choose which changes are convenient for your play style. Hop out of DL and get to walking, I' ll see you in about 30 minutes. Closer from Cain? Go cook a pizza while you wait on a port, then ill still wait 20 mins for u to head on out. Speed classes? Sure come on out. Kill your enemy. Then wait 20 mins while they port back.

And to the "I want classic crowd",

Yes I have a horse on several of my toons. I use it for travel. If they would revert "ALL" the custom changes instead of certain ones that make life uncomfortable for you, I'll be glad to give up my horse and walk. (Never play my ranger again if I had to hoof it from DL )

And I'm sure ill here the "old RA" bla bla bla. Go test em and post the data.....oh wait....you can't.....

Want to whine about that? I'm ok with Implementing old ra's without testing. My RA's will be up by the time your my incoming is there anyway with the classic port timers and no horse routes that you want so bad.

Sleepwell wrote:

Justbard wrote:It is not livelike.

Here we go again...Please try to refrain from making this statement. You want livelike? We can go back to no horse routes in OF and 15 minute port timers also...unless u want to pick and choose which changes are convenient for your play style. Hop out of DL and get to walking, I' ll see you in about 30 minutes. Closer from Cain? Go cook a pizza while you wait on a port, then ill still wait 20 mins for u to head on out. Speed classes? Sure come on out. Kill your enemy. Then wait 20 mins while they port back.

And to the "I want classic crowd",

Yes I have a horse on several of my toons. I use it for travel. If they would revert "ALL" the custom changes instead of certain ones that make life uncomfortable for you, I'll be glad to give up my horse and walk. (Never play my ranger again if I had to hoof it from DL )

Comparing apples with oranges isn't the way to go young padawan. There's a little difference between an incombat advantage and the possibility of getting faster to the action, don't you think? The Former gives you an advantage over your enemy whereas the latter just benefits you (and everyone else) in getting faster into the action. I most likely won't loose a fight due to shorter port-timers or the implemented horseroute (besides getting added more often), but I propably gonna loose a fight because someone could chase or reach me with more speed than he should have by class design.

Like I said pick and choose which is convenient to you.

Why is this only about horses, hasteners on keeps can cause the exact same imbalance. While we are on it can we please remove the hasteners completely and set the port timers back to 15min, the short porting time can lead to imbalances, especially on relicraids, defenders are not able to set up a defense between the borderkeep and the relickeep because of the fast port timers! Livelike please! Petition against fast food RvR!!!