The more RvR-Zones there are, the lower the player concentration will be in these zones. If we had only NF without BGs and without DF, there would be more players in NF. If we had a BG for every five levels, there would be a lower concentration of players as there is now.

This is logic and needs no further explanation, dont you think?

This is not logic.

BGs and New Frontiers do not overlap. Braemar and Wilton do not overlap. My level 50 character can not choose between Braemar and NF. My character can not choose between Wilton and Thidranki. As such, they have no effect on each other.

Understand?

The only way for BG to have an impact on NF activity is if the player actively logs out their level 50 character to play a low level character. If there is a low level character logged in, it is already too late for such a player to be active in NF. They chose to log in a character who cannot participate in NF already.

I can not find any logical relevance in the twisted thinking that if we add a new BG, everyone will stop what they're doing and play all of their characters in this new area. If they choose to play in the BGs, they're going to do it.

What a level 15 character is doing should be of no concern to a level 25 one.

I'm going to go ahead and outline all of the possible outcomes for the usage of the hypothetical new BG:

1 - New players will experience the BG as they are high enough for it. This will, technically, alter the activity in Braemar. But in any way that anyone will mind? No. Nobody wants low level characters in Braemar who are too low to be on fair ground, but just high enough to be annoying and need to be killed (usually 1 or 2 shotted).

2 - Players may make new characters, or have characters within range for the new BG. This shouldn't have an effect on other BGs/NF. Unless they made a character solely for the new battleground, this obviously won't have any effect on the BG. People make alts all the time, this is just a part of the game and shouldn't be effected by a new BG. Players will probably want to try it out, so activity may be affected for a limited time, but in most cases, nobody will bother rolling a new character and leveling them 20 times just to try a new BG. In addition, these new characters will eventually level out of the new BG (Due to RR cap or otherwise) and soon end up in Braemar anyway.


Okay, I was gonna keep listing outcomes but this is getting boring.

The entire point of this BG is player retention. A new player will be very disappointed if they get to level 20, go to Braemar and are killed by Purple+++ players. Or to be told to go level some more. The average NEWBIE player will take a SOLID amount of time to get to even level 20. Why make them wait? For some petty concern about BG levels changing a little? An odd fear that the fragile frame of New Frontiers will be crushed because people have a new option for decent gameplay? Get real.

Krinton3 wrote:

[The more RvR-Zones there are, the lower the player concentration will be in these zones. If we had only NF without BGs and without DF, there would be more players in NF. If we had a BG for every five levels, there would be a lower concentration of players as there is now.

This is logic and needs no further explanation, dont you think?

This is not logic.

BGs and New Frontiers do not overlap. Braemar and Wilton do not overlap. My level 50 character can not choose between Braemar and NF. My character can not choose between Wilton and Thidranki. As such, they have no effect on each other.

Understand?

The only way for BG to have an impact on NF activity is if the player actively logs out their level 50 character to play a low level character. If there is a low level character logged in, it is already too late for such a player to be active in NF. They chose to log in a character who cannot participate in NF already.

I can not find any logical relevance in the twisted thinking that if we add a new BG, everyone will stop what they're doing and play all of their characters in this new area. If they choose to play in the BGs, they're going to do it.

What a level 15 character is doing should be of no concern to a level 25 one.

I'm going to go ahead and outline all of the possible outcomes for the usage of the hypothetical new BG:

1 - New players will experience the BG as they are high enough for it. This will, technically, alter the activity in Braemar. But in any way that anyone will mind? No. Nobody wants low level characters in Braemar who are too low to be on fair ground, but just high enough to be annoying and need to be killed (usually 1 or 2 shotted).

2 - Players may make new characters, or have characters within range for the new BG. This shouldn't have an effect on other BGs/NF. Unless they made a character solely for the new battleground, this obviously won't have any effect on the BG. People make alts all the time, this is just a part of the game and shouldn't be effected by a new BG. Players will probably want to try it out, so activity may be affected for a limited time, but in most cases, nobody will bother rolling a new character and leveling them 20 times just to try a new BG. In addition, these new characters will eventually level out of the new BG (Due to RR cap or otherwise) and soon end up in Braemar anyway.


Okay, I was gonna keep listing outcomes but this is getting boring.

The entire point of this BG is player retention. A new player will be very disappointed if they get to level 20, go to Braemar and are killed by Purple+++ players. Or to be told to go level some more. The average NEWBIE player will take a SOLID amount of time to get to even level 20. Why make them wait? For some petty concern about BG levels changing a little? An odd fear that the fragile frame of New Frontiers will be crushed because people have a new option for decent gameplay? Get real.

Good post.

Look, now we have Braemar as lowest BG. It's got a crippled level range that stretches from 20 - 35. Obviously by far the biggest from all 3 BGs. However, you quickly learn that below 28-30 you're pretty much useless to go there and might still have a hard time with anything up to 32.
So, the REAL level range is 30-35, as that is what people do to prevent losing time in there because of being chainkilled.

What WE are suggesting is a new BG that has a max level of about 24 or 25 starting at .. 15-20 so that players from level 20-25 also have the opportunity to gather RPs for their first 5 RSP's and have a fun break with the usual PvE grind. This is to make the server less unattractive from the start and helps new players most! Most new players don't have anything besides helpful realm mates to get levels quicker than solo, which makes the 1-30 grind even worse without any variation or additional abilities (RAs).

Will this affect end-RvR? Yes. But rather POSITIVELY than negatively. More new players will stay because of the relaxer PvE environment due to the earlier BGs. These players are more likely to stick to their character than before (again, the dry 1-30 grind).

Will this affect other BGs? No! Not at all will Braemar or any other BG even notice the effect of an earlier BG, because it's a completely different level range.


In other words, there's absolutely no REAL reason not to have a new BG, besides perhaps not enough time on the dev's agenda, which we can only guess.

Okay I am convinced. Another BG from lvl 20-27 wouldnt be that bad.

[Some time ago I knew some players that were only playing in BG's, although they were playing very often. When they were out of BG's, they made a new toon. With a fourth BG this BG-only-playstyle is even more attractive... but in the meantime there isn't a lack of players in NF anymore, so this shouldn't be a problem.]

In my opinion the main mistake in the whole discussion results from the assumption that all players with level 50 chars would by default chose to play big RvR if there were no other choice (e.g. no battlegrounds) because this assumption is wrong. If people do not like the big RvR setting they will not play there whatever battleground policy is applied on the server.

Der_Eisbaer wrote:In my opinion the main mistake in the whole discussion results from the assumption that all players with level 50 chars will by default chose to play big RvR when there is no other choice (e.g. no battlegrounds) because this assumption is wrong. If people do not like the big RvR setting they will not play there whatever battleground policy is applied on the server.

Yup, to be quite honest, end RvR has got nothing to do with this discussion besides from it being indirectly boosted because of more players. Oh and of course the slight, but very short drop when people check out the new map, of course.

There are two reason alot of new players dont even bother with NF rvr.

1. The extremely slow pve exp rates. I have friends who have tried Uthgard and then quit around lvl 20 because of the dull pve exp rates. I only went trough the boring pve for the great pvp.

2. The high RR twinkz groups with bof3, di3 and other imba RAs are impossible to kill with a RR 4+ group no matter how good teamplay/skills you have.

Battlegrounds are more even grounds and more fastfood action, wich is more enjoyable for many.

hopscotsch wrote:2. The high RR twinkz groups with bof3, di3 and other imba RAs are impossible to kill with a RR 4+ group no matter how good teamplay/skills you have.

Not really

http://uthgard-server.net/modules.php?n ... ic&t=10973

Here's a vid of a RR 3-4 group killing very high RR ones.

Funkling wrote:

hopscotsch wrote:2. The high RR twinkz groups with bof3, di3 and other imba RAs are impossible to kill with a RR 4+ group no matter how good teamplay/skills you have.

Not really

http://uthgard-server.net/modules.php?n ... ic&t=10973

Here's a vid of a RR 3-4 group killing very high RR ones.

Youre right, It is not "impossible" but very hard and as GM said, you can always zerg vs them... And in the video some of the high rr opponents were afk etc.

The main problem with Uthgard though is the bad pve exp rate. My 2 copper

hopscotsch wrote:The main problem with Uthgard though is the bad pve exp rate. My 2 copper

I wouldn't mind for PvE exp to be increased a bit either.

I doubt xp rate is really what bothers people who are not playing their level 50 toons.

hopscotsch wrote:Youre right, It is not "impossible" but very hard and as GM said, you can always zerg vs them... And in the video some of the high rr opponents were afk etc.

That's not people being afk. That's just the average skill level. And no, tbh it's not that hard.

First post on this forum, been lurking but this thread really made me want to say something.

First, have the admins discussed why they won't have low low level BGs? Like 5-15 or something? Well because, the other day, due to the forum I inhabit, I actually got about 60 players (only a few vets) to download and join. They were pretty excited when they heard they could experience DAoC RvR, or just RvR people in general.

But sadly, one after the other, they started dropping. I kept trying to usher them, but to new players, the PvE grind to about 27~ is insane apparently. So as of now, there's probably about 15 of us that stuck around (me and two friends were planning on staying anyway), and while 15 is nice, its kind of sad, I think, we lost like 45 new players (not mid hehe) because they couldn't experience RvR until they grinded PvE until high 20. I don't know, many said they would come back if there were low level RvR, but a lot were just tearing their hair out every level hoping they could RvR soon, and then getting to 20 and getting one shot.

For the record, most liked the battle mechanics, world, classes, ect, but yeah.. ):

Xp rate is really up to each own PoV. There are some people who think it's fine, some other it's too hard, even some who thinks it's too easy (yes, there are). Of course, if you're coming out of WoW, good chances are that you'll see the xp rate as a chinese torture. If you've played DAoC at the beginning, when there were no boat, no horse, no port (besides the one at Svasud but you had to wait for a timer), no BGs, and a really ****** xp rate, you could have another PoV about Uthgard's.

I still believe xp rate is a poor excuse to explain the lack of players in NF. There's no lack of level 50 (far from it), and if xp rate was that hard, I doubt people would keep rerolling new toons over and again (unless they're masochistic).

Since a very long time and until today, BGs activity remains higher than end RvR, in spite of GM's efforts. Since players obviously prefer to keep on reroll rather than play their level 50, it is logic to say that the xp rate is not the problem.

kikoo wrote:Xp rate is really up to each own PoV. There are some people who think it's fine, some other it's too hard, even some who thinks it's too easy (yes, there are). Of course, if you're coming out of WoW, good chances are that you'll see the xp rate as a chinese torture. If you've played DAoC at the beginning, when there were no boat, no horse, no port (besides the one at Svasud but you had to wait for a timer), no BGs, and a really ****** xp rate, you could have another PoV about Uthgard's.

I'm the latter, played before SI. I don't think the xp rate is too fast, I just don't see why people think it's too slow (I never played WoW, only classic Everquest and classic DAOC where xp rates really were torture). Uthgard is easy xp in my eyes.

I still think Braemar should be split in two though. We need a 20-27 and a 28-35 BG.

Cant there just be good old Thidranki for 20-24?