am i the ony one that kill easily any savage or valewalker and having troubles to kill eldricht, menta , zerk, blademaster?

i think SI classes are fair ( maybe not the 4seconds timer of the BD insta drain in comparaison with cast speed on uthgard) (and maybe not the unbeatable mass shrooms but maybe that's cause i hate campers and keep fights)

i don't see any old (high) player that complain about it... so maybe there is a problem at low level?

It's not the classes, its not the spec, its not the rr. IT"S THE SKILL. I believe this from the bottom of my heart and i will always do. If i would play a hero solo RA specced no SI melee class could kill me, and not because of the char.

The stealthers are meant to do kills on solo targets , some people really can't understand this. I will never understand them myself.

If Eshee or myself or any rr7 stealther kills u its because we are meant to kill solo targets, some have VIPER some other tricks. I use my realm skill points only for the purpose to do the most dmg/disable on a solo char (i use 6 charges and 3 poisons, and buffs from pots), and i'm not the only one. It's like i would say why i cant do good in grp and a fullbuffed berserk does better. Uthgard still misses lot of live stealther things, stealth abilities, stacked bleeds, 2 hand PA bonus, and the weapon skill its exactly how it should be. I never qq-ed that some1 kills me since i play here like 3 years ago or so. WHY? only weak players whine about a char being tougher than theirs while its similar to livelike.

I bet that midgard cant keep their relic since the new system was implemented just because the savages are so f powerfull and they kill anything by sight. Only when a savages log in like 3 albs die.

Stop playing a victim and try your best, i bet you can do more.

@ pana: its a problem of low level, low rank, i bet that those that needs faster xp and faster bonuses, and more rp bonus while partying, and si classes removed (because they dont play one or its not their main char), and balance and them to be able to solo any stealther with a rr4 char are the same people.

panachier wrote:am i the ony one that kill easily any savage or valewalker and having troubles to kill eldricht, menta , zerk, blademaster?

pliz an autographhh pannaaaaa! u r my idol!!!

panachier wrote:am i the ony one that kill easily any savage or valewalker and having troubles to kill eldricht, menta , zerk, blademaster?

i think SI classes are fair ( maybe not the 4seconds timer of the BD insta drain in comparaison with cast speed on uthgard) (and maybe not the unbeatable mass shrooms but maybe that's cause i hate campers and keep fights)

i don't see any old (high) player that complain about it... so maybe there is a problem at low level?

Uhh.. open your eyes...

Blairo wrote:u QQ about animists? .. let me think about the 2 hit savages? WHY should the animists be nerfed just because they are stong? savages can kill you in some seks! why dont nerf them first? or even reaver or valewalker.

Oh and when u say SI classes are fair.. don't say it if you start making exceptions for 2 of the 6 classes, that's 1/3rd that still ain't 'fair'.

-----------

Blue wrote:Another way beside removing the SI classes is to custom balance them out against classic classes at certain well defined and well thought points. I would like to take this approach since the classes offer new styles of gameplay and I don't want to see this disappear.

To do such balancing it first needs a type of benchmark to measure how good a class really is compared to others. This could be done by some powergamers playing the class at their best and measuring xp gain rate or rp gain rate over time.

@Blue: this is what I was referring too. Customising and modifying SI classes to fit them into the classic balance will open the box of pandora for mindless critic, whines, nerf begging, love beggin, endless discussions, QQing, ... in other words all things that break up a community.
Not to mention TRYING to make this work would take a hell of a lot of work, testing, preparation, time and whatnot. And I'm saying trying. I don't know how to code or stuff but I do know that finding the 'perfect nerf' is like searching a needle in a haystack. I just think it's far from worth it. The time spent on this would be much better used for improvements made to the world / RvR / quests / ...
Not all the SI classes aren't even implemented fully yet, so first you would have to implement them completely, THEN u can start Trying to nerf them in an acceptable way..
I'm just saying: It's Not Worth The Trouble.

On Yggdrasil there are no SI classes and I must say I really, really don't miss em at all! What extra play do they bring? Not much if you ask me..

*Reaver: heavy tank with OPed behind style & some instas. Playstyle: DPS Tank, nothing new.
*Necromancer: Play your pet.. I don't want to think about the bugs this is going to have before finally being somewhat worth playing. Ok it's new but not something the server is waiting for.
*Savage: DPS Tank again, some spammable selfbuffs. Nothing new, just OPed burst dmg.
*BD: OPed, instas, healing pets. I don't see what this adds to playstyles.
*VW: Is and stays a tank. Lifedrains, instas.. PBAOE style proc + DD style proc (again.. what classic tank has procs on styles???) Comparable to Thane, just better. Nothing new.
*Animist: Petspamcampbot. 'Nuff said. Anyone can camp and let pets do their work, no addition here imo. It even kills the need for classic classes in some PvE.

About the testing xp/time or rp/time. That's just worthless testing imo. Any class can have x amount of xp/rp in a certain time with the right conditions. Certainly RP depends on opponents, gear, skill, too many unmeasurable things to be reliable. It's very hard to test this reliably, not to mention modifying in an acceptable way.

Customising is indeed an option, but if you look at the expenses... it's no real alternative to removing the classes in all.
The cost of trying to balance SI classes vs. Classic classes is just too high.

Mythic tried it too, only they took the other route.. boosting classic classes after 1.80, which is not really and option either I think.

------------------

Runis wrote:It's not the classes, its not the spec, its not the rr. IT"S THE SKILL. I believe this from the bottom of my heart and i will always do. If i would play a hero solo RA specced no SI melee class could kill me, and not because of the char.

I never qq-ed that some1 kills me since i play here like 3 years ago or so. WHY? only weak players whine about a char being tougher than theirs while its similar to livelike.

Runis.. you have no clue. First of all, I'm NOT Solo RA Specced, no sane hero that has friends would do such a stupid thing. A hero is not meant to solo.
But I was fighting a tank that wasn't solo specced EITHER, so it was a reasonably fair fight. Leviathan teared me open WITHIN SLAM STUN, and that's melee vs a Scale Heavy Tank! However I fought numerous other classes who had given me a tough fight, with or without slam, I fought numerous duels against Hib classic classes, which were all close, with or without moose. But NONE of those classes killed me within 8 seconds! So, if he was Solo specced too, he probably would have as less problems with me as he had then.
You're so completely wrong.

Oh and eh.. similar to livelike has got nothing to do with this discussion. Pay attention! Classic classes and tank styles were IMPROVED after 1.80 because they should be able to compete with SI classes and beyond. On Uthgard it's still Classic vs. SI classes before that change.
Again, you're wrong. Please use your brain(?) before calling people 'weak players'...

You do see that if you talk about 1.80+ ALL classes but the Catas one were boosted to fit the Catas classes.So yes,even SI classes got some love...get your facts straight please

(And before you mention the "nerf" of BD with 8 sek Insta lifetap.At the same moment his Pets were boosted to a whole new level,which made BD even stronger,especially for Grp play)

W/e, saying there's balance cus it's livelike is just making a causeal mistake.

Ofcourse si classes are powerfull, but I do think they can give some new gameplay feats. So I want them to stay, maybe take the sharp edges of them.

I do like keepfights though and imo catapults should be more powerfull:)

I would really want to see OF with new keeps, but that's just my wish:)

Last note: I like new rvr, it's another step forward!

Zarkor wrote:Again, you're wrong. Please use your brain(?) before calling people 'weak players'...

come on ... you rolled a hero... lol.

but to be a bit more serious.

i have many chars, and played most of them enough to know if they are powerfull or not.

on alb, i didn't play my reaver for a long time cause it's really weak class. as a fighter, i'd really prefere mercenary ( except in bombing setup etc...)

on mid i would certainly not play a savage or a BD.
zerk is stronger on many points, and offer much more possibilities.
BD is useless in group witjout pet and is not fun solo.
there are so much classes that i'd prefere than SI

on hib animist can be fun and powerfull but not with camping.
and VW is a good class cause have lot of possibilities but i would still prefere a menta bm or bard.

i see no really difference between a SI class and another one except they came with SI ^^

panachier wrote:

Zarkor wrote:
on alb, i didn't play my reaver for a long time cause it's really weak class. as a fighter, i'd really prefere mercenary ( except in bombing setup etc...)

Did you know svg does twice the damage of a merc ^^

panachier wrote:
i see no really difference between a SI class and another one except they came with SI ^^

no comment

Zarkor wrote:*VW: Is and stays a tank. Lifedrains, instas.. PBAOE style proc + DD style proc (again.. what classic tank has procs on styles???) Comparable to Thane, just better. Nothing new.

Actually Berserk has -> 3er Backstyle combo

Reaver: The example of the reaver killing the Hero.
Like Zark said he's not specced for solo. Having Purge2/3 would make the Reaver close to useless.
Nerfing levi dmg would lead to the same thing, a useless class, because w/o he hits for ******.

BD: Great solo class but honestly doesn't bring too much in a group.

Savage: This is the only class I'd like to see nerfed.
He's not as limitied as a reaver who has to do backstyles to do any damage and still can do very high damage.
Not all savages hit THAT hard but for example Mollotows damage is too high.

On the Hib classes I can't really comment cause I never played against them
but i've never noticed VWs making winning a fight easier than having BMs in group.
I don't see animist as a very strong class except in keep defenses.

What I'm saying is that SI classes have their strong and weak points. Minor tweaks could be good but major changes will just destroy them I'm afraid.
Which would be a sad thing cause in my book they're a part of DAoC as good as any other class (Not cata/laby classes, I hate them :p).
Besides what are you gonna tell people like Rhiordd or Pestilenzia if you're gonna delete SI classes?
I'm sorry but we decided you're just too strong and we have to erase you. Any other you'd like? I wouldn't be too pleased.

BD: Great solo class but honestly doesn't bring too much in a group.

TWF and well played is a nice rupter

Maidrion wrote:Reaver: The example of the reaver killing the Hero.
Like Zark said he's not specced for solo. Having Purge2/3 would make the Reaver close to useless.
Nerfing levi dmg would lead to the same thing, a useless class, because w/o he hits for ******.

Uhm don't forget their defense is sick and have insta lifetap. Against pure tanks that can be a killer if u block enough, definately against LW.

Leviathan definately needs some tweaking, AT LEAST make the DD dmg SCALE on the Whip Wpn Speed.
Having a 2.3 whip with a static 216 DD is just ridiculous.


@panachier, you're not making sense.. again. I'm not gonna waste more effort/time on you..

Zarkor wrote:

Maidrion wrote:Reaver: The example of the reaver killing the Hero.
Like Zark said he's not specced for solo. Having Purge2/3 would make the Reaver close to useless.
Nerfing levi dmg would lead to the same thing, a useless class, because w/o he hits for ******.

Uhm don't forget their defense is sick and have insta lifetap. Against pure tanks that can be a killer if u block enough, definately against LW.

Leviathan definately needs some tweaking, AT LEAST make the DD dmg SCALE on the Whip Wpn Speed.
Having a 2.3 whip with a static 216 DD is just ridiculous.


@panachier, you're not making sense.. again. I'm not gonna waste more effort/time on you..

Look at it this way: Your average classic tank (bm, skald,..) deals good dmg in whatever situation. Ofcourse better if they can get off their positionals but not immensely more. A reaver can do spectular dmg yes but counter his levi and he's done for. His dependance on his Levi compensates its strength This is the case in both 1v1 or 8v8. Yes pure melee tanks w/o purge will most likely lose but a grp specced hero has to face that there's enemies beyond his league.

Btw. Reaver has to to spec 50 Flex, 42 shield which leaves him with a 83DD lifetap on a 30s recast. Don't think that's gonna be a killer.

bd´s are a pain to deal with - solo and in groups. 4 sec instant rupt that even gives you hp back and deals damage is just too much.even without the pets the 8 sec timer would still be powerful enough.

its still ridiculous how a reaver can drop a hero within 1 slam. did some duels with my armsman against some reavers and it was the same thing there - you slam first do your positionals -> reaver down to like 30-40% , he recovers from stun then slams on his own and i don´t even survive the stun when i resist 2 levi´s ... as a fricking fulltank. even with buffed resists they gank you in no time.
yes it´s strong , but can be dealt with .

pretty much the same thing with animists - if you fight on their turf your toast , they are weak in groups and weak if they aren´t prepared for you currently (lot of spells missing/bomber issue etc).

svgs on the other hand are just nuts! best thing you can do is /face em and pray for some cc within the next 2 seconds.at least they are only a real threat in groups.


maybe some of the pre 1.80 changes could tone SI classes down a bit:

bd - 8 sec lifetap instead of 4sec
svg - well , no changes that i know so far
vw - 1.83 style changes might help
reaver - levi is a follow up style
ani - shroomlimit/ani , might decrease the shroomcount/area too

would still be sorta "livelike" but also violate the 1.80 barrier.