Jezzmin wrote:BUT: if you guys really wanna do 8v8, why don't u all go some remote spot, that nobody knows? u can say in irc (via pm so no1 else will know) - "we're roaming uppland for 20 mins then going 20 mins to snowdonia"...and if u only tell ppl u know make and prefer 8v8 as well 8v8 will happen where YOU want it to be...

1) The 8vs8 community is pretty small (maybe 3-4 groups at best at the moment, usually less)
2) Getting from A->B on Uthgard takes for ****** ever, so moving spots would require a high degree of communication between groups (see 4)
3) 8-men don't only want to fight other 8men, 8vs16 can be fun too
4) It adds to the excitement NOT to know what you will run into and with Uthgard's population you simply have no other choice than going to the most likely place to find inc (aka Emain)

In an ideal situation, Emain would be zerged like crazy and 8men would go to Odins or Hadrians, But since the active RvR population is continuing to dwindle, there are no real alternatives to Emain right now. You could also turn this around btw, Pugs could go to another zone and look for inc - and that used to be the case - but there are simply not enough RvR players left now to make that a viable option.

And as I said, Pugs are welcome to add a few more players to be competitive (e.g. 12-14 is fine imho) and noone would mind much, unless the Pug is Drachengarde with 8 rr10+. I think from a practical point of view that is the only option right now.

Lots of complain, but finally, it's not so bad
And for size of "multi-or-single-group", we just have to try to use our brain and size it according to our skill/rr and the skill/rr/number of opponents.

Arnooagi12 wrote:I don't think Kross literally meant a FG of RR10's ^^. But, in his defense, Soxx / Stonedome and some other RR8+ Druids i have seen (dont remember their names) are typically very hard for any of the pug mid groups I am ever in or see fighting.

Also, what Kross is hinting more at is the fact that on Midgard our pug groups are not ever as well coordinated as the hib groups it seems, especially due to the fact that we cant just grab a bard and a druid and then head out with whatever 6 other classes we want, which is what frustrates me personally about Midgard is how hard it is to get a balanced group going compared to Hibernia or Alb. So, we often have a hard time if you compare a Mid pug vs a Hib Pug, and sometimes Alb pugs (of which I hardly see).

Do you know how hard it is to find a Healer on Midgard at USA times? What about a Skald? They are soo hard to find.

In order to have what a bard has we need a skald + Shaman or Healer, in order for slam we need a Warrior/Thane, not our main dps zerker, unlike hib. I wont go on about this, but this is an unfortunate imbalance across the realms that frustrates me. Generally, just the ease variance across the realms in forming competitive RvR grps.

Maybe to be discussed a later day? ^^

I dont do much group RvR so I wont even act like I know what every realm needs in order to have a good group of player, but know that all 3 realms have their defficiencies as Lasatard has allready pointed out. I know ALOT of well played group players and they almost all say that for PUG and low RR groups Mids have the easiest set up. This server favors tanks as opposed to casters and the Mids are kings in tank trains. High DPS tanks w/ celerity = win alot of times.

If it is so hard to find all these players on Mid then how did Kross get 2-3 fg's to come out? All 3 realms have a hard time filling a fg of players during american prime time. It is every bit as hard to find a well played druid or bard as it is for you to find a healer or skald. You guys had a FG, they put together a FG, then after getting killed once the Mids came back with somewhere between 2-3 fgs of Mids. That doesnt sound like its that hard to find players in Mid. Also, almost every small man I see on Mid EVERY night has at least 1 healer with them and I see TONS of solo skalds. Then the Hibs logged and I'm sure Mids laughed for a few minutes then prolly complained about nothing to kill then logged themselves. Do you see why this doesnt work? Zergs are fun when there are other Zergs to fight. Its not much fun bringing a nuclear bomb to a knife fight.

Lasastard wrote:
And as I said, Pugs are welcome to add a few more players to be competitive (e.g. 12-14 is fine imho) and noone would mind much, unless the Pug is Drachengarde with 8 rr10+. I think from a practical point of view that is the only option right now.

this

RonELuvv wrote: If it is so hard to find all these players on Mid then how did Kross get 2-3 fg's to come out? All 3 realms have a hard time filling a fg of players during american prime time. It is every bit as hard to find a well played druid or bard as it is for you to find a healer or skald. You guys had a FG, they put together a FG, then after getting killed once the Mids came back with somewhere between 2-3 fgs of Mids. That doesnt sound like its that hard to find players in Mid. Also, almost every small man I see on Mid EVERY night has at least 1 healer with them and I see TONS of solo skalds. Then the Hibs logged and I'm sure Mids laughed for a few minutes then prolly complained about nothing to kill then logged themselves. Do you see why this doesnt work? Zergs are fun when there are other Zergs to fight. Its not much fun bringing a nuclear bomb to a knife fight.

Lolz, you cant generalize the population of Midgard on USA evening times/ class availability from one night of RvR Zack. Cmon mate, use your noggin.

Arnooagi12 wrote:

RonELuvv wrote: If it is so hard to find all these players on Mid then how did Kross get 2-3 fg's to come out? All 3 realms have a hard time filling a fg of players during american prime time. It is every bit as hard to find a well played druid or bard as it is for you to find a healer or skald. You guys had a FG, they put together a FG, then after getting killed once the Mids came back with somewhere between 2-3 fgs of Mids. That doesnt sound like its that hard to find players in Mid. Also, almost every small man I see on Mid EVERY night has at least 1 healer with them and I see TONS of solo skalds. Then the Hibs logged and I'm sure Mids laughed for a few minutes then prolly complained about nothing to kill then logged themselves. Do you see why this doesnt work? Zergs are fun when there are other Zergs to fight. Its not much fun bringing a nuclear bomb to a knife fight.

Lolz, you cant generalize the population of Midgard on USA evening times/ class availability from one night of RvR Zack. Cmon mate, use your noggin.

If they need skald or healer, roll one, its way more usefull than your hunter in grp ^^

I'm not generalizing. I am referring to what Austerim and some others got into it with Kross over. On this particular night he was obviously not lacking in players, so to say that the reason he zerg'd was because he couldnt find a healer or skald is ludicrous. Also, I was simply pointing out that those few nights where you do have a hard time finding a skald or healer the Hibs are probably having as hard of a time finding a bard or druid. Its all relative.

My examples of seeing groups with healers and solo skalds in Emain was also not a generalisation. Its a fact. I'm out there on my ranger for 1-3 hours almost every night. If there is one realm I see more then any other it is Midgard. 90% of that time the small man or fg or Mids has a healer if not 2. I see solo skalds I bet 65-75% of the time.

All of this gets off the point, Austerim and Kross were arguing over whether it made sense for the Mids (Kross' group) to get 2-3 fg's of Mids to kill one fg of Hibs that had beat them once. Kross and you both suggested it was because the Hibs were running a high RR group of set players and needed to zerg to make it fair. I simply pointed out that not one person in their group was over RR7 and most were under RR6. Something that has yet to even be rebuttaled on. I was also pointing out that while Kross thought it was unfair for the 8 Hibs to kill the 8 Mids so they brought out 2-3 fg's then he turns around and kills a solo warden at AMG with 6 people a few nights later.

Nothing is wrong with playing this way, but dont sit there and make up fake reasons to zerg people. Just be honest and say, "We want easy laid back fun and easy RP's so we zerg." You will never hear another word from me. Dont say, "We only did this because it was the only way we could make it fair..." That is just BS.

Also- +1 to Alanya's comment.

This is so funny Arnooagi, You state you can not find a skald? ROFL I play mid every day, and I know for a fact that there are a TON of skalds on. Now about healers I see lots of those also, but I can some what agree with your point that it could be hard to find to find 2 healers to RvR with. Wait a minute Hibs need 2 druids, and albs need 2 clerics thats the same as mids needing 2 healers. So how is it harder on mid to get your healers then on alb or hib?

The hib group is not high RR at all. I would say when hibs go out there they average RR5ish. Got a few people that are RR6, and a few that are RR4. I dont count stonedome or soxx becuase they are not usally out there RvRing in the group during American hours. But if I count stonedome he is 7L6 I would not call that high RR, but I guess its border line high RR.

Mids having trouble finding players for RvR. Will I think we all know you and kross are lieing through your teeth on that one. Last week at around 11:00EST/8:00Pacific (90% Euros went to bed so its all North American players) Mids had 3 to 4 groups in emain. Lack of players? And just last nights mids came out agian with atleast 2 groups. To zerg no albs, and a 7 man of hibs.

Also you complain of not having the right setup? While you Group RvR on the hunter? Hunter=Group RvR char? Some one please help me out and explain that one.

Mids can easly be more successful in group RvR if they stop playing there hunter, and bring classes the MIDS really NEED to be more sucessful.

I think you also said that the Hibs and Albs are better players? Will I can agree on that. What are they doing that the american mids are not. Lets make a list.
1. They dont focus on easy RPs by 6v1 on solo players.

2. They look for fair and challenging fights. (Example) (8v8)

3. Having fights that are equal in numbers is the best way to improve skill.

4. Your in a fight were you have a good chance to win or loss.

5. This is key becuase people give up if its 3groups v 1group.

6. Being in a fight were the odds are close to 50/50 its challenging enough to make it hard with out discourging people to
quit. This challenge can make the fight fun for both sides and encourge them to keep coming back.

7. This level of challenge prompts better development of player and team skills.

8. When they loss to a fair fight instead of getting a 2nd group we talk about mistakes and what we can be doing to improve.

9. Bringing a good group setup and tell stealthers to bring a group friendly RvR char to better help the group.

How ever if you (Arnooagi) and kross prefer the to win with out being challenged please keep zerging, you will find a very empty and lonly emain. Where you will have to zerg solos at amg for your RPS.

Well said by all three of you. Yes, fighting in 8v8 is a great way for the USA players to improve their skill. But, often times its difficult for those of us with the proper experience and skill to carry untemplated mids into 8v8 fights who lack both of the former. Therefore, you are correct, it is much easier and funner to zerg than die 3 or 4 times in an 8v8 (which kross did do) and then try to teach 3 or 4 mids about tactics and strategies. Who really wants to do that? Cmon.

Sure, roll a skald. Wow Ori, tell me something I haven't heard before. This means a lot coming from someone who only plays stealthers. And FYI, I have a 50 skald (asper) and a 47 soon to be 50 Thane (Keravnos).

Anywayz, great comments both Zack and Grendel. Its nice to at least know some players experience the difficulty I often feel on Midgard anytime I do a visible group, and that is the shared difficulty of getting a proper group set up.

Also Grendle, your list unfortunately ignores the fact that most mids are German and our largest guilds are german. Also, most of our large german guilds are inactive 6 days out of the 7 every week. Drachengrade, Blutrausch, Anguish, etc.

So, here is a little list for you as to why Mid cant easily execute the strategies Albs and Hibs follow:

1) Language Barriers

2) Largest guilds are German and dont like to pug

3) On American times, the players are mostly poorly templated.

OFC, these can all be overcome. Just making a point that its not an easy 8 step weight watchers diet plan to success in rvr.

Can you come up with any more excusses? Really no templates? Language trouble?

So I guess hibs and albs dont have trouble with the german players becuase of language? And what does german players RvR times have to do with American RvR times. Not a thing.

Templates issues really? Then stop taking them really. And if you need them so bad get them templated.

Arnooagi12 wrote:Sure, roll a skald. Wow Ori, tell me something I haven't heard before. This means a lot coming from someone who only plays stealthers. And FYI, I have a 50 skald (asper) and a 47 soon to be 50 Thane (Keravnos).

Well i got rr9+ warrior, rr7 rm, 6L7 merc, many visible toon more than rr5, but yes i play only stealther. thx for your info.

RonELuvv wrote:I'm not generalizing. I am referring to what Austerim and some others got into it with Kross over. On this particular night he was obviously not lacking in players, so to say that the reason he zerg'd was because he couldnt find a healer or skald is ludicrous. Also, I was simply pointing out that those few nights where you do have a hard time finding a skald or healer the Hibs are probably having as hard of a time finding a bard or druid. Its all relative.

My examples of seeing groups with healers and solo skalds in Emain was also not a generalisation. Its a fact. I'm out there on my ranger for 1-3 hours almost every night. If there is one realm I see more then any other it is Midgard. 90% of that time the small man or fg or Mids has a healer if not 2. I see solo skalds I bet 65-75% of the time.

All of this gets off the point, Austerim and Kross were arguing over whether it made sense for the Mids (Kross' group) to get 2-3 fg's of Mids to kill one fg of Hibs that had beat them once. Kross and you both suggested it was because the Hibs were running a high RR group of set players and needed to zerg to make it fair. I simply pointed out that not one person in their group was over RR7 and most were under RR6. Something that has yet to even be rebuttaled on. I was also pointing out that while Kross thought it was unfair for the 8 Hibs to kill the 8 Mids so they brought out 2-3 fg's then he turns around and kills a solo warden at AMG with 6 people a few nights later.

Nothing is wrong with playing this way, but dont sit there and make up fake reasons to zerg people. Just be honest and say, "We want easy laid back fun and easy RP's so we zerg." You will never hear another word from me. Dont say, "We only did this because it was the only way we could make it fair..." That is just BS.

Also- +1 to Alanya's comment.

Just wanted to give my two cents on this because well... I was there. That hib group tends to run pretty good realm rank, I think on that particular night both blademasters were close to RR9, at least their bard or druid was close to that, and there was a few other mid ranks running in there. Put that into the fact that these guys run pretty consistently together and are very well organized, it makes it pretty tough for a single group to bring them down without similar coordination and a close to ideal set up. Neither group had that, and I don't think one of the groups was even full. The only way for the mids to win that night was to run together to take out the hibs. If they really wanted to keep action, I'm sure they could have given the 2 groups a run for their money even with as much as a trio to run with them. If they can't put that together, RvR is over for both sides. Either way the Mids were going to quit, or the Hibs, it just happened to be the Hibs because they didn't want to fight two groups or whatever. People can cry about it all they want but this is the nature of the beast.

back to topic for short: sharpen you swords and axes, do whatever you do to make your hammers do more dmg and be prepared for tomorrow.

And now back to resentments and excuses

Arnooagi12 wrote:Also Grendle, your list unfortunately ignores the fact that most mids are German and our largest guilds are german. Also, most of our large german guilds are inactive 6 days out of the 7 every week. Drachengrade, Blutrausch, Anguish, etc.

So, here is a little list for you as to why Mid cant easily execute the strategies Albs and Hibs follow:

1) Language Barriers

2) Largest guilds are German and dont like to pug

3) On American times, the players are mostly poorly templated.

OFC, these can all be overcome. Just making a point that its not an easy 8 step weight watchers diet plan to success in rvr.

why would this list only apply to mid? o_O