You missed the point -- those that went to RVR went to RVR- the rest remained doing other things. We have seen for years precisely what mythic saw: 20% RVR, regardless of whether we have 100, 1000, or 4000 players (it was a bit less than 20% at that time due to lack ofend game negligible players but you get the point)

Mythic stated (paraphrase) that they see 20% regardless of server population. For servers that had over 4000 (Guinevere, Merlin, Perc) or 500 (Nimue)

You can't MAKE people somehow go out to RVR zones. There are all manner of ideas and we are certainly happy to discuss them (visit the suggestion thread), but to say we should EXPECT more people to RVR 'if only xyz' seems misguided. Mythic and later EA Mythic then Broadsword have to some degree tried to keep things fresh and moving for all these years. Clearly their framework took a different approach and they diverged significantly from the original vision of DAOC.

As to what I hope to achieve? I 'hope' to achieve nothing here. People expressed they wished we posted more. Ok, I'm posting more. I'm pointing out that the assertion that the BG's are somehow affecting (KILLING!) endgame RVR is patently false. If anything it has taken a significant chunk out of people leveling, which might affect future RVR sure, but it is not affecting numbers as they stand today.

Abydos wrote:40% of 515 or 20% of 1100.

This problem is more complex than you think. But instead of "OMG THERES NO ACTION" or "BGS ARE KILLING RVR" you might consider to ask, "Why is it that we retain european players at a higher rate than NA counterparts?"

Why would I consider asking such a ridiculously depthful question when I can just look at the really simple numbers that show me that the population— no matter where on this planet you may or may not be logging in from— is dropping lower and lower week by week and has been since the launch of the server? Why do I even need to bother with the nitty-gritty when it's already too obvious a trend across the board?

People from all over the earth just want to have fun on this server and you are not providing a good enough service for them to achieve that. You can help them which would in fact be helping your server. Or you can just let them go, which is what is happening/has happened and see the server lose more and more life. I know which option I'd be going for if I were in the driver's seat.

Zarkor wrote:What exactly are you trying to achieve here, Abydos?

When Uth 2.0 launched, there were over 4000 players logging in almost each and ever single day, eager to play on your server. Right now, that number is not even half that. You're trying very hard to argument that "Actually once we hit critical mass of 50s in RVR the numbers are relatively unchanged". As if it is a good thing! Your RvR numbers could have been triple what it is now, if not more. They could (and should) even be rising gradually. In fact by now the boards could have been flooded with posts about how action is too bountiful and that we need more areas to disperse the players because DAoC servers weren't meant to have over 1k active players in RvR.

At one hand, you guys are showing willingness to really tackle this issue with certain changes (which are not all equally good at solving the core of the issue, but still), but at the same time you come on here, hoping to convince the people who actually seem to care enough to come here and post about it that they really don't know what they are talking about and that the server is doing juuuuust fine. They should just get a grip and learn where they can find inc. If you were right, then you wouldn't budge an inch and not issue any of the changes that have gotten to pass the last month. Look at the facts, not just the data.

Almost every single post you have made in this thread is in pure denial of the state of the server. What do you think you're achieving with this, really?

What exactly are you trying to achieve here Zarkor ?

What player need to rvr ? Don't tell us again that player need stacking potion and barrel buffbots xp *200% and all the craps always the same player ask for .

Casual player quit because of elitist 8vs8 rr6 7 + that farm them that's all .

Abydos wrote:

Spin wrote:Rvr has been declining for months..

Actually once we hit critical mass of 50s in RVR the numbers are relatively unchanged. It wasn't like suddenly had 2000 people in RVR zones when we had 4500 on the server.

Spin wrote: Saying x amount of people are in rvr zones means nothing if you run around zones for hours, not just emain, and see eight people per hour. As someone stated perception is all that matters, not facts of numbers that people can not seem to find.

Actually it does matter - because it means people either 1) Don't want to play in any way possible, but only 'their' way (for example, not going and killing XPers, or not wanting to go kill the 1-2 fg in SH or whatever) or 2) that people who run "for hours" with literally hundreds of people in these zones don't "see anyone" are clearly looking ni the wrong spots. In these cases we (staff) and the players in question should focus on hotspots. We have these in keeps and relics, but how to make it even more visible and attractive such that people don't just expect to get a full perfect group in mpk in emain then run MMG<->AMG in emain for 2 hours getting inc every 5 min.

It had visually declined, is that better? I've done everything from 8v8 to helping splitquicks Zerg. So I have done multiple playstyles but my desired playstyle has became nearly extinct. I don't care if it's perfect groups according to certain people.

So perception matters more to me, and I'm sure others, than numbers, be it as a fact in terms of numbers. I only have a few hours a day now to play, so conceited as it may getting pigeonholed into only one playstyle I'm not a huge fan of makes it no longer fun. People have left. Rvr has decayed. I saw it personally and still reading it now, even if your numbers say otherwise. If we base everything off numbers instead of how the people playing the game are seeing things the server will continue to drop. I don't know how to fix it. I know I've tried running around zones when I played and it's boring always missing them as you said.

Abydos wrote:You can't MAKE people somehow go out to RVR zones.

...

If anything it has taken a significant chunk out of people leveling, which might affect future RVR sure, but it is not affecting numbers as they stand today.

I'm not arguing BGs are affecting RvR as it was before the BGs got changed, because in both cases, casual RvR in OF was essentially non existant anyway. BG RvR offers just that, a chance for casual RvR. I agree with you that when you compare RvR before and after the BG changes, not much has changed, for better or worse. It makes perfect sense, too.

That's not my point though. The point is that the server as a whole is seeing a decline. And yes, I have been on that thread. I've posted there since you pointed me to it earlier. I've also posted here even before Uth1 got shut down. Plenty of times. The decline never stopped and from how it looks now on Uth, the decline (overall, not related to these BG vs OF RvR numbers) is from what I can tell still going on. This entire topic is just a side-note on the bigger issue imo.

Anyway, I wanted to point out that you mentioned that you can't MAKE people go to RvR zones. I agree. You can't force them, but you can offer them the right incentives. What you did with the BGs though, is you gave them the incentives to go RvR THERE instead of applying those incentives on the frontiers and keeping the original BG ranges. You said it yourself, you took a chunk out of the people leveling, so something clicked to say the least.

I just don't see why you wouldn't want to kill two birds with one stone and try to make the changes work for the frontier zones instead of just the BGs? You would solve two of the most important issues this server has: 1. An alternative, meaningful method for character progression other than the XP grind (xp through RvR) and 2. An organic influx of non-optimized players into the frontiers, providing the base population on which casual RvR can establish itself.

Obviously the incentives need to be significant enough yet balanced, but if it works for BGs (which don't have bindstones), it has a good chance of working for the frontiers, don't you think?

gavanna wrote:What exactly are you trying to achieve here Zarkor ?

What player need to rvr ? Don't tell us again that player need stacking potion and barrel buffbots xp *200% and all the craps always the same player ask for .

Casual player quit because of elitist 8vs8 rr6 7 + that farm them that's all

200% XP and barrels will not solve anything. It sounds great and all, but it doesn't solve any of the problems (see above). Also, casual players don't quit because they get killed by 8mans. They can take it, they're not princesses. But they can not take a death or two if there is nobody else for them to kill in the first place. If they can find 10x inc on their level of play and die 2x to 8mans in two hours, np. If they find just 1x inc on their level and die 2x to 8mans in two hours, that's a problem.

Sure, population is not what it was at lunch. But anyone who was expecting 4000 players to continue playing past the rush on a game that is this old is asking a lot. A sizable portion (lets say 25%) never had any intent to follow the rules, so lets take off 25% right off the top -- and of course, many of those folks are dual login, so 25%* 2 in some cases.

What you have remaining, some portion can't or don't agree with dealing with the XP rates and/or the playstyle (don't like 8v8, dont like elite, dont like zerg -- want to solo/sneak but can't deal with single potions -- whatever). To ignore the fact that some % will not like the setting is just wrong.

Could we change it to make everyone happy, offering everyone everything? Sure, we could have some i50 BG for some, but offer emain 8v8 for others, and free/noSC zone for others. But that's not what we want to do. We want to strike the right balance and adhere to the vision of what Dark Age of Camelot is. Modern games like GW2 tried the "insta action RVR" type. And good for them. But that isn't what DAOC is and likely won't ever come on Uthgard. Players have a choice to play, and surprisingly, as a percentage of total population, we hit the same metrics consistently.


Don't get me wrong, I am and have been a US player. Since I became a GM in January 2011 I've seen the US population during my playtime go from 150 to 550 (yaaaaaa). there were more people logged in the frontiers last night than we'd usually see in TOTAL ever in the past. That's still a win, regardless of how you slice it. Uthgard has been at this for 14 years and the trend line for population does indeed grow. That's something that is pretty remarkable in my book.

Not everyone is avaialble to play all the time, ever day. Players come and go, as their lives and circumstances change. People go on dates, play other games, get bored -- whatever. We're not selling a drug to keep people playing so we get their money. We are admittedly just trying to let people have some fun.

Also just to clear up any misconceptions: yes, we do play. And yes, we're in your groups. And yes, we roam and get no inc.

Believe me when I say its more frustrating to see people run by each other than finding each other on inc because they did not have some hotspot but rather wanted to roam.

Where's that radar when you need it?

I'd love to hear your views on my reply as well, Abydos.

On a sidenote, I get that you're trying to be positive about the general trend, but I (and many other players) will disagree with your opinion. I don't know how familiar you are with how Uth 1 evolved over the years, but in general, the server saw huge population spikes whenever some new (in this case Vanilla) aspect of DAoC saw a rebirth on Uthgard. For instance the biggest population surge on Uth 1 was when OF got introduced. Plenty of people were hyped. Unfortunately, little did anyone really understand that changing the frontier zone was not going to solve the core issues that plagued Uth's server setting in terms of end RvR. After that initial surge, population dropped slowly but surely up until the point where Genesis managed to put the final nail into the coffin, even though its launch was a disaster from the technical perspective. People were desperate to get out of the setting they were molded into.

Fast forward to Uth 2.0 and everyone was hyped more than ever before in DAoC's history probably since the release of SI. Again, MASSIVE spike in popularity spike. Everyone felt this could be finally it, the chance to get everything right. Sure, some might not have understood the way Uthgard operates, but the vast majority was simply eager to enjoy their free time playing Classic DAoC. People stuck through the long and tough grind to 50 in the race to compete and RvR. However a lot of people realized that after spending the better of the 2 past months, they soon realized that nothing had structurally changed from Uth 1. Where there was supposed to be flourishing casual RvR, there was only really room for organized setgroups to get a piece of the cake. Sure, they weren't RR8+ yet, but if you didn't have a somewhat organized group going, you were pretty much wasting your time trying to get some casual RvR in because most players realized that it was beneficial for them in the long run to skip RvRing for now and to focus on min maxing their character before they went out. It was beneficial for them to withhold themselves from casual RvR because that way they would progress faster and be able to focus full time on RvR faster, which in turn left the frontiers underpopulated in a sense because people didn't want to fight with uneven odds. This is what made a lot of players quit. They realized that they were facing this wall of PvE grind for each of their alts and that even if they somehow found the time to do it, they would be stuck in the same old casual unfriendly end RvR environment. At least that's how most of my guild members faded away after getting their hopes up initially for a better start. Judging from the overall population trend, we were not alone.

What I'm saying is this: the population spike you are so positive about is not a matter of good server design, but of initial hype. It is the server design that is causing the steady decline that has been going on for years.

It ebbs and flows. Yes I am familiar with the history on Uthgard 1 as I have access to the data. The peak was indeed OF but only for a few days. September/October 2012 were actually nearly as high for a much longer period of time and that occurred during a time when nothing substantial was changing with the server itself. There's really nothing to explain why people suddenly came and started playing, but everyone and their mother wanted to take credit for why they started leaving. This after they claimed removing "barrels" killed the server despite having been removed in June and we saw a steady increase for 4 months... They were reacting to a very temporary drop due to Diablo 3's release in May... Hmm

You're not wrong about casuals withholding themselves from RVR. And without food, the hardcore people want to leave because they don't feel rewarded enough only making 10k/night.

Zarkor wrote:What exactly are you trying to achieve here, Abydos?

When Uth 2.0 launched, there were over 4000 players logging in almost each and ever single day, eager to play on your server. Right now, that number is not even half that. You're trying very hard to argument that "Actually once we hit critical mass of 50s in RVR the numbers are relatively unchanged". As if it is a good thing! Your RvR numbers could have been triple what it is now, if not more. They could (and should) even be rising gradually. In fact by now the boards could have been flooded with posts about how action is too bountiful and that we need more areas to disperse the players because DAoC servers weren't meant to have over 1k active players in RvR.

At one hand, you guys are showing willingness to really tackle this issue with certain changes (which are not all equally good at solving the core of the issue, but still), but at the same time you come on here, hoping to convince the people who actually seem to care enough to come here and post about it that they really don't know what they are talking about and that the server is doing juuuuust fine. They should just get a grip and learn where they can find inc. If you were right, then you wouldn't budge an inch and not issue any of the changes that have gotten to pass the last month. Look at the facts, not just the data.

Almost every single post you have made in this thread is in pure denial of the state of the server. What do you think you're achieving with this, really?

IMO, it does all need to start with data. Then those data need to be analyzed to gain INFORMATION. The information needs to be discussed (both internally AND with the players) to gain wisdom. From wisdom, useful changes can be made.

Data -> information -> wisdom -> changes.

Gil wrote:IMO, it does all need to start with data. Then those data need to be analyzed to gain INFORMATION. The information needs to be discussed (both internally AND with the players) to gain wisdom. From wisdom, useful changes can be made.

Data -> information -> wisdom -> changes.

Go with the Uthgard method.

Data -> Players are stupid/doing it wrong -> Changes

Really though, I still enjoy what is offered here, I just find aspects of it incredibly frustrating and when the MM part of MMORPG starts to die out, it just becomes a subpar RPG experience. This is a reality NA players face, and not so much the Euro population.

Someone mentioned incentives to get players to come out into the frontiers like bonus xp.

Terrible idea. Lets bring the lowbies out to get farmed by greifers.....yeah that wont work.

Get rid of the grind completely. Make bgs offer even more xp. Keep takes worth more. Kill tasks, etc. A keep take could easily give 5 bubs of xp. And 1k rps in Cale.

Of? Sever wide tasks. Go kill guards in emain. 500g reward and 1.5k rps. All 3 realms get the same zone. Zone changes every day.

Fix unwanted classes. Give det5 to all classes that can spec in a melee line. Fix paly end range.etc

Cut the crafting time. Now the individual craft, but the skills gained. Do 100% chance to gain 1 skill pt upon completing a craft. 50% chance to gain 2 skill pts. 10% chance to gain 3. Cut costs to craft by 50%. Remove class restrictions.

Just some thoughts

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

Ownnyn wrote:Someone mentioned incentives to get players to come out into the frontiers like bonus xp.

Terrible idea. Lets bring the lowbies out to get farmed by greifers.....yeah that wont work.

Get rid of the grind completely. Make bgs offer even more xp. Keep takes worth more. Kill tasks, etc. A keep take could easily give 5 bubs of xp. And 1k rps in Cale.

Of? Sever wide tasks. Go kill guards in emain. 500g reward and 1.5k rps. All 3 realms get the same zone. Zone changes every day.

Fix unwanted classes. Give det5 to all classes that can spec in a melee line. Fix paly end range.etc

Cut the crafting time. Now the individual craft, but the skills gained. Do 100% chance to gain 1 skill pt upon completing a craft. 50% chance to gain 2 skill pts. 10% chance to gain 3. Cut costs to craft by 50%. Remove class restrictions.

Just some thoughts

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

This is so far from the stated goals of Uthgard 2.0 it's ridiculous. I personally think DAoC needs custom solutions to actually survive nowadays, but you'll never see this on Uthgard at this rate. It's about as far from their current path as the sun is far away from the Earth.

Abydos wrote:You're not wrong about casuals withholding themselves from RVR. And without food, the hardcore people want to leave because they don't feel rewarded enough only making 10k/night.

Exactly. If there's one thing we've learned from Uth 1 and 2 so far though is that overall, the more hardcore population will manage quite well regardless of how well casual RvR is doing. They are far less sensitive in that regard. However they're not immune. Eventually, like you say, they too will become dissatisfied if there is no possibility for fresh blood. They will also benefit if there are more casual players out there.

About the population, I do agree that there's always plenty of factors at play on which it's impossible to have an impact. However it's not right to pretend that you really can not have an impact because of that. The hype from big changes is a good short term example, but also positive server setting can make a difference, just like negative server setting can. It's not as obvious as the short term impact, but it's definitely there over the long run. All I'm hoping for is that at one point, a server setting will be found where the overall trend goes up instead of down. And I do very much believe that it's not that hard to make that happen.

Budikah wrote:

Ownnyn wrote:Someone mentioned incentives to get players to come out into the frontiers like bonus xp.

Terrible idea. Lets bring the lowbies out to get farmed by greifers.....yeah that wont work.

Get rid of the grind completely. Make bgs offer even more xp. Keep takes worth more. Kill tasks, etc. A keep take could easily give 5 bubs of xp. And 1k rps in Cale.

Of? Sever wide tasks. Go kill guards in emain. 500g reward and 1.5k rps. All 3 realms get the same zone. Zone changes every day.

Fix unwanted classes. Give det5 to all classes that can spec in a melee line. Fix paly end range.etc

Cut the crafting time. Now the individual craft, but the skills gained. Do 100% chance to gain 1 skill pt upon completing a craft. 50% chance to gain 2 skill pts. 10% chance to gain 3. Cut costs to craft by 50%. Remove class restrictions.

Just some thoughts

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

This is so far from the stated goals of Uthgard 2.0 it's ridiculous. I personally think DAoC needs custom solutions to actually survive nowadays, but you'll never see this on Uthgard at this rate. It's about as far from their current path as the sun is far away from the Earth.

Good, screw this 1.65 crap.

Get this logic....

People like classic because toa ruined the game

Toa ruined the game because it intoduced a steap grind. MLs, mlxp, farm scrolls, farm artis, level arties. And they were must have to compete. The grind was insane....

Solution....get rid of the grind and do 1.65........which was the worst point in daoc history for leveling......f'n grind.?

Yeah that makes perfect sense.

Anyone who thinks 1.65s was perfect is clueless and deserves the slow death. 1.65 should have been the starting point. A do over. Start at 1.65 and show us where u would have gone from here.

So much wasted potential if u make the same mistakes mythic made. Makes me wonder if uthgard is run by ex mythic employees.


Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk