that definitions, mid/melee-realm, hib/magic-realm, alb/both of them realm
are wrong...
but thats offtopic i think^^

@Raven
Please do not compare the Shaman to the Cleric,since the Shaman is more or less the equivalent to the Friar (e.g. not the Mainhealer,supporting the Group with buffs/disease).
And the Friar is quite good in deffing himself,don´t you think so?


Edit:
This comparison is crap as well,you can´t compare these classes at all,but since the cleric is Mainhealer and buffer in one you really can´t compare him to Shaman or Healer at all (even though I still think if you complain about Shaman beeing able to def himself to good, the same goes for the Friar since he can buff/heal to)

Yet the mid Healer can defend himself good right ? Mezz and stuff ?
Every healer can defend himself, yet the Cleric hasnt got anything except for the nerfed Smite Spec...

@Gaius, nono tell, I'd be happy if you share your vision

hmm @Luv just to mention about your damage output - i remember Kurosaki really wondering how you could get him so low in terms of HP last time in front of albion tk, so you damage output can't be that bad at all

You cannot really compare 2 classes in a realm IMO, as they're all (still... mythic seems to uniform them even more) really different. Personally, i'd like the old frontier RA System which differs the realms even more.

Just don't start with caster-realm, tank-realm or normal-realm, in my opinion midgard and albion have much more utility on their casters than hibernia, in exchange hibernia has, for example, the pbt on a hybrid which isn't too less of an advantage. The only thing you can compare is which class can do which things, but directly comparing classes? Impossible

Well it was Mythics original idea, you even see it in the realm select screen :p
But you cant say Mid has as much casters as hibernia

But you cant really compare em, but still , i'd like the cleric to be able to defend itself at least a bit, that stun doesnt work much when under attack by a pet orso

Too bad the whole topic has gone to waste and ended up like a pile of poop, Just wanted a discussion about balance, not demanding nerfs and flaming the others for their ideas..

@Razzer no-buffbot server every class can defeat the other, i'd like to see a paladin defeat a shammy

about smite clerics, let me fill you in about how they were pre smite nerf, pre sc, pre RA.

in terms of lvling: my rejuv/smite cleric (35 rejuv 39 smite 12 enh at lvl 50) spent the last 3 lvls soloing yellow/orange undead mobs in stonehenge (undead is vulnerable vs spirit damage, at least they should be) at lvl 49 the spec smite did about 250-300 damage on yellow mobs, killing a yellow without going melee was impossible. same thing goes for pvp, i could kill shadowblades but not without skill and difficulties, here's an idea of what that fight would've looked like:

Get PA'd
Use Insta Mezz
Run
Heal, cure poison, cure disease
single smite
stun
run
single smite twice
stun
single smite
get out the hammer and whack em
inta heal
whack em some more
group insta heal
whack em
insta mezz
run
smite
/victory

smite clerics were far from real damage casters, but in order to do so they had to drop either rejuv or enh (i dropped enh which made it a bit easier since my guild had a buffbot in emain) without buffbots that would mean that in a group with only a smite cleric that group runs without spec buffs or with crappy basic heals and albion has no other class to pick up the slack, only other support class that comes close is friar and friars can only do basic buffs and their healing capabilities dont even come close to those of a rejuv cleric

my smite cleric can take care of herself here on uthgard as far as preventing PA/BS and stunning enemies goes, damage wise it's a nice addition to the other player's damage but only when a fight is almost over and we have the upper hand. the drawback is even bigger in braemar since most clerics are either rejuv spec or enh spec, i've got neither (save for some basic points in rejuv) degrading me to the rank of staffless friar when it comes to support.

i have my reasons to believe that upping smite spec might not be such a good idea, sure the range and damage could use a lot of love but the real problem will be a serious decrease in support clerics which is the main reason the initial smite nerf was implemented. as far as i know, damagewise smite wasnt nerfed as hard as ppl made me to believe, the main nerfs were a drop in range (anything that can cast can hit me outside of my own range) and the increase on the recast timer of my one true love: insta PBAoE mezz (from 30 secs to 5 minutes)

but i do think i can compare smite clerics to cave shamans as both have to abandon part of their support role to really be effective in their non support role, sure a cave shaman can kite a whole tank group to death, but that doesnt help their fellow mids who are pushing up daisies while their heal/buff support is playing hide and seek


on the whole damage thingy: is there anyone who volenteers to help me do some tests? i'd prefer a basic tank class without self buffs using 1h weapon preferably somewhere around rr2 to rr3 and willing to give me a list of his stats for comparison (maybe a warrior or so?)

greetz,

Luv

Razzer wrote:Even clerics can beat shamans

I disagree.
There is a reason you see lots of solo shamans and no solo Cleric.

I agree with Gerbald , and dissagree at the same time

You can only stun a player twice, and the second stun is 1/2 of the time
And stime doesnt do as much damadge as you think, not forgetting you having to spam cure poison

But with some luck , the enemy player being drunk and hasnt slept for a week, you might stand a chance..

can't/can w/e, it's mainly about skill and luck for both players

Well somehow I got the feeling that "better ability to defend himself" means
in other ways "better ability to solo". Fact is that Druids, Healers and Clerics
are pure group-dedicated chars. You may be able to kill someone who's
with stupid, but the major part of dmg-based classes will just kill you, if you
are specced for teamplay and exactly that is what defends you - teamplay.
You got a pet on your back ... order one of your groupmates to kill it or at
least disable it with CrowdControl. Thats for example a point where Alb has
got great benefits. All realms pets can be mezzed/rooted while Albions Theurg
pets are immune to CC. That does not mean for Theurgs to spam pets all the
time, but 1-2pets per supporter in a certain interval will be awful for the
opponent, because they have to call back their melee fighters to kill the theurg
pets.

Your other point about Shamans. Yes, a Paladin might not have a chance. At least
not if he didn't use all possibilities. So, a solo cave-shaman is an open-field
fighter meaning if you stay near to a tower or keep and use its structures
to pull the Shaman closer to you he might come close enough for you to
interrupt his next cast with a DirectDamage charge on maybe your shoes
and might catch him up to stun him. If you are in melee with him he is will
almost be dead (no quickcast). If he pbae inst diseases you just get back
to the point where you use structures to pull him to your position.
However, the worst-case for Shamans are classes with speed. So, if you
know that theres a Shaman out there and your for example a Paladin you
should call for a Minstrel or a caster-class with speed.

About the topic - if you have got certain bugs or missing features and are
able to post some evidence for it to be a bug no one will troll or flame around
in your topic, but if you come up with the idea to change abilities on classes
in a way that is more likely based on your own wantings and feelings the
majority will begin counter-argue. If this topic becomes tempted what it
will of course due to the ask for a nerf on certain classes the topic will be
doomed

Please don't misunderstand me, but I played a long time on live servers
and had to see what happens to a game if a bunch of childish lpayers wants
a certain class to be nerfed and another one to get some love ("lovepatches") ^^
This all lead to what DAoC is today. The three realms are almost uniform
and I really really look back to the good old times when the realms were
a lot more different. Just a few examples.....

RA system - preNF you had a RA system that gave general RAabilities to
every realm. Almost every passive ability was choosable by every realm.
Some active RAs too. But if you took a look onto active group RAs every
realm had got it's specialities.

Albion - Bunker of Faith (melee absorb)
Midgard - Divine Intervention
Hibernia - don't really know ^^

These RAs have not been cut into three stages as it is with NF. They just
boosted your group by the maximum amount known in NFs three stage RA
system, but needed a lot more realmskillpoints to buy them.

Another point. At first Midgard never had a PBAE caster (bomb). The supp
line of Spiritmasters was modified after heavy-whining in forums.

Archers had been able to kill a target with 2-3shots. Just stand behind a
tree and shoot. After killing your target, just restealth and go away.
People whined about it, because it was sooo unfair. This lead into a major
nerf of archer classes making them almost without a chance against their
former primary targets.

Assasins had been able to perform onehit kill and stay stealthed. Actually
this was an issue, but the majority of stealthed-onehit-killed casters were
dumb enough to get away of their group. Usually they stood around 2-4
horse lenghts away from group. So why should an assasin not be able to
kill him withou being seen --> assasins

What happened then? Well easy to say. Players cried about Albion having
BoF, Midgard having DivineIntervention and so on. The consequence was
a uniformization of the RA system applied with NewFrontiers and exactly
the same thing happens every patch with certain classes.

In my eyes you as a player have to accept how the game you chose to play
works and the game-developer should be responsible to keep the genuinity
of the game. In DAoC both sides failed

I hope this might help you to understand why especially the more DAoC
experienced players act a bit allergic if players ask for classchanges that
are unnecessary and leave an aftertaste of the player asking for the change
not to have taken a look into the overall-system of DAoC.


Greets
Sethor

PS.: Gerbald, how many active clerics are out there and how many of them
dedicate themselves to solo-game by speccing the smite-line ?

Raven wrote:You can only stun a player twice, and the second stun is 1/2 of the time

you can stun monster in PvE twice, not player. in RvR you get immunity after first CC

@Poplik Two stuns , second at 1/2 , thats whats the immunity is for

@Sethor I dont want clerics runnign around soloing, that would be major ****** Imagine a savage crying cuz he got whacked by a solo cleri xD
Clerics can use a bit of buffing , but that would give the danger of everyoen going to smite, and leaving no pure clerics anymore... Too bad =/

WOW my eyes, TOO much to read.

first time anybody compared shaman to clerics. geee.


hey lets compare reaver to thanes to VW's? same right? ha!

mentalist to cabbies?

light eld to SM's to thuergies"?

bards to minstelS to skald?


NONE THESE CLASS ARE ANYWAY ALIKE, THEY ONLY SHARE A SMALL SKILL.

so you cannot not compare. class balance is about the gruops.

oh dear i think i opened a can of worms.

that is when BArd become something. oh bard's. never play them, boring class, your feal like somebody personal bot all day. yessa masta you want da POM now masta? no masta want endurance regen...

get this guy into rvr, you get SPEED , buffs , crowd control, endurance speed 6, SOS, heals,all this inside a chain armerment.

as a alb player to get all 1 class gives. ild need a sorc( that dont get chain or instants), pali for chants(speed 6) ,minst for speed and SOS, and a cleric/friar for buffs and healage. 4 playerss all to do ones job. hell just think if we had 4 bards?