@Zarkor: I responded to Herm666 not your opening post.

Blue wrote:@Zarkor: I responded to Herm666 not your opening post.

I KNOW THAT, THAT IS WHY I AM ASKING YOU TO PLEASE RESPOND TO THE 2 MOST IMPORTANT PARTS OF MY OPENING POST AFTER READING THEM.

r.i.p funny rvr = 09/10
r.i.p zarkor = never!

Lasastard wrote:Anyway, I think the issue here is that Blue's interpretation of what defines DAoC is very black and white and narrow-minded.

Zarkor wrote:- Home realms can also port to their own zones. By holding and claiming (by guild) a specific portalkeep in your own zone (these are predetermined and are one of the normal keeps, not relic keeps), this allows you to be ported to that keep with the regular ports as mentioned above by buying a ticket for the specific zone. These portalkeeps have no specific benefits such as better guards or doors. They also do not have a global warning message when they are under attack. This is the responsibility of the guild that has claimed the keep, as they will get a message when the keep is being attacked. They are still as strong as normal keeps, apart from the fact that enemy players can spawn there. Porting there gets disabled as soon as the first door is under 90%, OR when the portal keep is the only keep owned by the home realm in that zone. There are no portal keeps in the primary zones and the zones closest to the border keep (Emain Macha and Cruachan Gorge for example).

- In addition to the concept of these new portalkeeps, keepfighting should be more rewarding, with the focus on fighting. There should be no extra bonuses for taking the keep itself (apart from the fact that it might disable porting to the zone, impact DF control and hopefully influence the Relic Guards (as was on live)), but bonus RPs for killing enemy players near or inside the keep. This goes for both offence as defence. Upon killing an enemy during a siege on the offensive side, an extra bonus is given per kill. Upon killing an enemy during a siege on the defensive side, the same bonus is given. However, while defending a keep of your own guild, an extra bonus is given on top of that. Fighting for your realm should be rewarded, but same goes for fighting for your guild. Last but not least, a successful defense (there is no enemy activity around the keep for the full 5 minutes after a siege) will grant a RP bonus, with again the added extra bonus if the keep is claimed by your guild. This bonus is rewarded by the keep lord, and can be collected at any time after the 5 minutes have passed.

- Keeptaking missions can be a plus here.

1. You will laugh, we came to these points independent of your recommendations. And they are already planned. Basically we came to the porting as we had the problem in low population hours where porters port in 2min intervals. Hibernia has currently no advantage of it as the horse on the horse route doesn't speed up. Thats why we came up with the idea that Hibernia (and all other realms mirrored in their zone) is able to use the pad porters to port to the keep which is nearest to Emain Macha. The precondition to be able to use that port is a keep claim and levelup to a certain keep level. That keep level will spawn special NPC(s) which are the destination point of the port. They keep an energy connection to the pad porters so to say.

The problem with this idea is, whats the incentive for other realms to counter that keep take? What we definitely don't want to see is complaining that an Albion realm mate helped to take a nearby keep in the Hib zone and gets complaints that he "killed the Hib inc".

2. As for the reward for keep defense. There exists a solution on live servers which gives bonuses while defending a keep. Abydos already pointed that out internally and the mechanism is documented in the bugtracker.

3. No doubt, keep take missions are fine to have. Especially when there is not much action out there and a random group wants to start with something. It can automatically cause keep defenders to join the fight and we have good RvR again with the advantage that you in most cases see a different environment instead AMG all the time.

PS: What you describe basically is what we already have planned. Coupled relic guards with keeps. Pad-to-keep ports.
Mostly this has nothing to do with me narrow minded or black&white thinking like Melodexx tried to suggest but comes down to time to invest. What most of you not know is that the RvR code in Uthgard is terrible written and barely extensible. It just takes a big amount of work (refactor, redesign, rewrite) in front of all changes to be able to change things there. Its just not that easy to work with Uthgards code at these points and I always prevented to touch it as I smell a complete rewrite. But it wouldn't be the first time that large parts of the server have to be rewritten.

i guess if the keep i getting attacked and its a shorter route to amg than there will be enough ingame talk about it getting attacked just like relics
when you establish it in an event and people accept it the community won't need a help system.

Blue wrote:1. You will laugh, we came to these points independent of your recommendations. And they are already planned. Basically we came to the porting as we had the problem in low population hours where porters port in 2min intervals.

Amazing, this makes me happy, really. However, instead of low population hours, wouldn't it be a better idea to use low population numbers in the primary zones?

This could mean an incentive for zones such as Odin's to be used more often since they are low on population usually, even during primetime. It could mean a great improvement for smallman action during primetime as well.

What is the status on this subject now by the way? Still in design stage? I know the port timer is already reduced during off-hours though.

Blue wrote:The problem with this idea is, whats the incentive for other realms to counter that keep take? What we definitely don't want to see is complaining that an Albion realm mate helped to take a nearby keep in the Hib zone and gets complaints that he "killed the Hib inc".

First off, there will always be reasons to complain. Second, there are already ways to "kill the Hib inc", by just killing them. The hibs on the other hand have the responsibility (for their sake) to defend their portal keep. If they do not care enough about the portal keep for them to leave it undefended, they should simply follow the consequences.
(Btw, since when do you guys refrain yourself from improving your server because of possible (and frankly completely silly) complains? )

Blue wrote:2. As for the reward for keep defense. There exists a solution on live servers which gives bonuses while defending a keep. Abydos already pointed that out internally and the mechanism is documented in the bugtracker.

Very interesting indeed, looks promising!

Blue wrote:3. No doubt, keep take missions are fine to have. Especially when there is not much action out there and a random group wants to start with something. It can automatically cause keep defenders to join the fight and we have good RvR again with the advantage that you in most cases see a different environment instead AMG all the time.

Agreed, though this is more flavor than structure imo.

Zarkor wrote:

Blue wrote:The problem with this idea is, whats the incentive for other realms to counter that keep take? What we definitely don't want to see is complaining that an Albion realm mate helped to take a nearby keep in the Hib zone and gets complaints that he "killed the Hib inc".

First off, there will always be reasons to complain. Second, there are already ways to "kill the Hib inc", by just killing them. The hibs on the other hand have the responsibility (for their sake) to defend their portal keep. If they do not care enough about the portal keep for them to leave it undefended, they should simply follow the consequences.
(Btw, since when do you guys refrain yourself from improving your server because of possible (and frankly completely silly) complains? )

Question was, WHAT is the (preferable strong) incentive for Albion and Midgard players to take a Hib keep. (For the ease of discussion I use Hib zone in examples. All statements apply mirrored to other realm zones). We both agree that owning a portal keep is a big incentive as it saves time and nerves. But whats the point for other realms to retake these keeps?

Nef Melody wrote:

ZaiQQ wrote:You still cannot compete vs the top tier if you dont put in time and effort though or got a skilled team, I personally hate all these new matchmaking systems, I always prefered getting my head stomped in if i was new to a game, for me this is the quickest way of learning, and getting into the theorycrafting part of how to beat them.

Just like me, but that's really the minority of gamers, and it's actually pretty sad to see that this kind of oldschool players are going to disappear, due to the new generation crap of the game industry, play with enemies that are even, NEVER be frustrating at all....
It is way more satisfying if you think something is impossible - but you keep trying and make it somehow.

I'll let you two circlejerk about how strong-willed and special our generation was. Actually implying that it's a good thing to have very high tresholds and that new games are never frustrating...just...ok.

I want to make my example more clear by a typical Uthgard behaviour:

"Don't add!" and next they will say "Don't take that keep, or Hibs will logout and not come back!". Maybe exaggerated but I already saw such behaviour before (Dunno if it was in Agramon).

Herm666 wrote:Well ... GuildWars 2 and Diablo 3 support a system which benefits every player.
You can login, play one hour, logout. Its simple and its like a game should always be.
You would never do that on Uthgard.
You get a group for a whole evening - and you know: If you leave, your group f*cks up looking one, two more hours for replacement.

This is modern gaming. "Oldschool, traditional gaming" - or however you call it - cannot compete with it because it tries to involve EVERY player. It gives a sh*t about your "oldschool" mentality. The fact is: Even DAoC is just a game.
I think thats the point some guys here don't get ...
I just repeat myself: Its definitely not worth to invest so much time like I did on Uthgard just for competing. Its even a waste of time for every NEW player.

This leads my to my origin question ... And you seem to have an answer to almost everything.
Why should they play DAoC on Uthgard if they get invovlved better in other games? I want an answer to this question - Please don't even react to my stuff I writ before, because those are just facts.

I never regretted the time that I used, to get in touch with people to play with, It was not always that easy and yes, I might have 'wasted' some time, but that was definitely worth it.
I just enjoy to play RvR, I never played for rps nor cried if my hourly rps were low. I reached a point where I will ALWAYS get a group, no matter on which realm.
If you keep playing, you will reach a point where you get instant action whenever you log in, but in daoc you have to work for it, and it has not been different on live servers either.

Blue wrote:Question was, WHAT is the (preferable strong) incentive for Albion and Midgard players to take a Hib keep. (For the ease of discussion I use Hib zone in examples. All statements apply mirrored to other realm zones). We both agree that owning a portal keep is a big incentive as it saves time and nerves. But whats the point for other realms to retake these keeps?

Frankly, in normal circumstances, there wouldn't really be one. And neither should there in my opinion. Both sides benefit from more enjoyable paced action.

On the other hand, there could very well be situations (in the future) where action is so packed that either Alb or Mid forces decide to cut off the Hib supply route, granting them more room for positioning and picking fights.

Most importantly though, this keep would play a huge role in Relic Raid tactics. It would be wise at the very least to cut off the portal option to ensure you can easily keep an eye on the enemy's location and movement and to prevent getting ambushed on the way back, with the relic already in posession.

Blue wrote:I want to make my example more clear by a typical Uthgard behaviour:

"Don't add!" and next they will say "Don't take that keep, or Hibs will logout and not come back!"

Well, in general, if population is low, the force that does decide to go on and take the keep will most likely not even be able to do so. If they do attempt it, it's quite likely they will get fended off by Hib defenders, as ALL of them will want to protect their keep, vs just a portion of the enemy side trying to take it for whatever reason.

It won't be easy to take the keep, or better yet, it shouldn't be easy to stop the porting aspect of the keep, which is why I don't see much of those complaints become reality. In fact, I think players would really laugh the attempt away. A group attempts to take the keep while Hibs are around. The rest of the realm, at least those who oppose the move, take notice and just have a good laugh, confident that they will get stomped at the doors and wait for the deathspam of their realmmates.

On the other hand, this could actually become a good way of triggering inc if action really is at its lowest. Attack the keep, see what the response is. If nothing happens, most likely there just are no Hibs out willing to RvR (unlikely tho).


On a sidenote: It may be best to not stop the porting too soon. You wouldn't want to be able to stop it by swinging at the gate or killing a guard. Porting to the inner keep and only stop the port when the inner door is at half health for instance should work. Give the defenders time to deal with troll attempts. I can only imagine what you say to become reality if porting is indeed stopped too easily.



All in all, complaints are complaints. The "don't add" shouts only do so much. People who want to add will still add, and even IF this would be the case with the portal keep, it won't change much to their behaviour or feeling either. Uthgard players have grown a thick skin throughout the years..



PS:

Zarkor wrote:However, instead of low population hours, wouldn't it be a better idea to use low population numbers in the primary zones?

If you want instant action you can go to WoW get an instant invite for any instance you want.
Then you rush through a dungeon with your stop watch running and in the end the best part is you wont see your grp mates ever again...

Or you go play live daoc get an more or less instant invite for some zerg action and get an instant grp disband after first wipe.

Then I rather play Uthgard RvR where it takes some time to form a grp and run this grp for 3h. Or I just don't log in, but both options are a lot better than instant invites like on Ywain or in WoW or where ever.

I want to add to that previous GW2 argumentation that I'm of the opinion that DAoC is the better social game. In the end interacting with other players is what makes MMO's really special over solo games. And the more players are forced to work together the better the social experience will be. If you can jump in not knowing anyone and not being forced to cooperate with others you will be more an anonymous number.

Edit: Just saw Celteen came to a similar conclusion

Zarkor wrote:Frankly, in normal circumstances, there wouldn't really be one. And neither should there in my opinion. Both sides benefit from more enjoyable paced action.

Sorry but thats not balanced then and there wouldn't be a real conflict and you fall back to AMG "RvR". A strong incentive may be if Albion or Midgard could port to these keeps. But I'm not sure this would be a real good idea.

Zarkor wrote:On a sidenote: It may be best to not stop the porting too soon. You wouldn't want to be able to stop it by swinging at the gate or killing a guard. Porting to the inner keep and only stop the port when the inner door is at half health for instance should work. Give the defenders time to deal with troll attempts. I can only imagine what you say to become reality if porting is indeed stopped too easily.

I'm of different opinion. The port should be immediately not available (to that keep) if the keep is attacked. Hibs would have to claim more than one keep to have fallback solutions. If Crimthainn is not available you would be ported to Bolg IF there is a porter target established and so on. Hib players then could deal with the attackers of Crimthainn.