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Anti-Battleground?

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Astealoth Eagle Knight Posts: 924 Joined: Jul 10, 2008 00:00 Location: Upstate NY Website	by Astealoth » Mar 22, 2011 01:05 i exaggerate here a bit on purpose. i like seeing new discussion on stuff that i'd like to see changed in the future

Hoppip Myrmidon Posts: 113 Joined: Jan 29, 2011 04:58	by Hoppip » Mar 22, 2011 01:37 In the previous page, Zarkor quoted a post from another topic into this one, and this is my rebuttal to that post, from the other topic Well, I like how you enjoy repeating yourself, but this just isn't realistic. You're not going to transform end RvR with this. You can't "make" an untemplated lowbie suddenly viable when templated 50s are readily available. You can't "make" people who are trying to EXP suddenly be interested in going and RvRing. You can't expect steady, fair, enjoyable action in this kind of setup. It's, once again, ludicrous to assume that people are just gonna start grouping lowbies and suddenly that will be what people will do. Now, if you'd like to know what actually causes the difficulty in people getting into Level 50 RvR, here are a list of fictitious reasons: -Players haven't yet had any real experience in the frontiers -There aren't enough EXPers to gank in the frontiers, so more need to be forced out And here's a list of real reasons: -Templating is an expensive and long process, and players who may have been able to have fun in the BGs without a template know that going into the frontiers without one isn't advisable. Result: players wait a long time to get a template, and possibly give up and roll a new toon. -RR and skill gaps, players often get frustrated by being beaten by opponents who have much higher RR and experience they do, making it an unfair place to fight. -Many classes unwanted in RvR groups. Yay, I got my wizard to 50! What's that? Don't want a wizard? Well... dang. -Weak smallman action, unpopulated zones (Odin's Gate, Hadrian's Wall), obviously if you can't or don't want to get a group, you're gonna want to smallman, and the action can be fairly disappointing. The only thing you seem to be addressing is the smallman action, and you're addressing the wrong thing. We don't want to generate action for 50s on Lowbies, we want 50s on 50s. Attempting to remedy the situation of dead frontiers by forcing people who are still leveling and templating to take the blow is honestly probably one of the worst solutions I've ever read in my life. Attacking the battlegrounds is not the way to improve the life of Level 50 players. I am generally unhappy with the concept that taking away the superior option will somehow improve the game. Also known as: Kiorein, Acolyn, Skiploom, and Krinton.

bawww Eagle Knight Posts: 584 Joined: Feb 06, 2010 01:00 Location: Rocky road to Dublin	by bawww » Mar 22, 2011 03:00 Sethor wrote:As I told you, only because you can't find it with google/dict.cc/dictionary.reference does not mean that the term 'thatfor' does not exist. The word "thatfor" doesn't exist in the english language. And I don't need google to tell me that. Apoc315 wrote:The Theurge play is way more easy than a zerk

Maidrion Phoenix Knight Posts: 1359 Joined: Jun 10, 2006 00:00	by Maidrion » Mar 22, 2011 03:11 Hoppip wrote:In the previous page, Zarkor quoted a post from another topic into this one, and this is my rebuttal to that post, from the other topic Well, I like how you enjoy repeating yourself, but this just isn't realistic. You're not going to transform end RvR with this. You can't "make" an untemplated lowbie suddenly viable when templated 50s are readily available. You can't "make" people who are trying to EXP suddenly be interested in going and RvRing. You can't expect steady, fair, enjoyable action in this kind of setup. It's, once again, ludicrous to assume that people are just gonna start grouping lowbies and suddenly that will be what people will do. Now, if you'd like to know what actually causes the difficulty in people getting into Level 50 RvR, here are a list of fictitious reasons: -Players haven't yet had any real experience in the frontiers -There aren't enough EXPers to gank in the frontiers, so more need to be forced out And here's a list of real reasons: -Templating is an expensive and long process, and players who may have been able to have fun in the BGs without a template know that going into the frontiers without one isn't advisable. Result: players wait a long time to get a template, and possibly give up and roll a new toon. -RR and skill gaps, players often get frustrated by being beaten by opponents who have much higher RR and experience they do, making it an unfair place to fight. -Many classes unwanted in RvR groups. Yay, I got my wizard to 50! What's that? Don't want a wizard? Well... dang. -Weak smallman action, unpopulated zones (Odin's Gate, Hadrian's Wall), obviously if you can't or don't want to get a group, you're gonna want to smallman, and the action can be fairly disappointing. The only thing you seem to be addressing is the smallman action, and you're addressing the wrong thing. We don't want to generate action for 50s on Lowbies, we want 50s on 50s. Attempting to remedy the situation of dead frontiers by forcing people who are still leveling and templating to take the blow is honestly probably one of the worst solutions I've ever read in my life. Attacking the battlegrounds is not the way to improve the life of Level 50 players. I am generally unhappy with the concept that taking away the superior option will somehow improve the game. - I have to disagree on the template part. When I got my first level 50 here it was quite easy templating him purely from the money I got from levelling up. Circumstances were easy perhaps since my (druid) template was easy to get but even so most classes hardly need to farm that much to get it. A few raids perhaps but nothing like it was during ToA and beyond. - True to some extent. If I'd reach 50 today (withouth knowing the people I do now) I'd have troubles finding equal groups to the ones that roam Emain. BUT people have shown that if you got a good team you can go a long way. After all hardly anyone here started out rr9 and with an SG. - Very true. Because of current and future server settings so many classes just don't cut if you wanna go competitive. Ofcourse in zergs it matters jack sh*t what and how you play. Still I find it very sad that I often have to tell people the class they're interested in isn't worthwhile. Can easily be solved by some "custom" changes but we all know how that goes. - Can't really comment on that. Ever since OF hit, I did smallman in NF, I've only been interested in 8v8 since the current frontiers were just too big (+porting) that it was too much of a timesink for me to even go there. Two decent fights in 60 minutes is not worth my time. Has to be said I have no idea what the current situation is like.

Zarkor Unicorn Knight Posts: 3710 Joined: Aug 15, 2006 00:00 Location: Antwerp, Flanders, Belgium	by Zarkor » Mar 22, 2011 03:12 I'm sorry you can't seem to see what my theory will really establish. I'm just going to point out this: Having a reliable flow of accessible smallman RvR will immensely boost the overall RvR activity due to the fact that everytime a FG logs out, or before a FG can form, the players that take part in them will have the opportunity to RvR while waiting instead of standing around doing nothing untill the right group is formed. What this means is that parcticly the entire FG RvR population -which is (besides stealthers) the vast majority of the current RvR population- adds up to the newly attracted endgame playerbase. Combined, this would form the largest potential playerbase for any RvR playstyle we have seen on Uthgard in endgame so far, making it likely to be a longterm success. This is just what I believe is true in any circumstance, regardless of what method is used to spark a critical daily amount of smallman RvR activity. Last edited by Zarkor on Mar 22, 2011 03:17, edited 1 time in total. In defense of truth-to-experience.

Hoppip Myrmidon Posts: 113 Joined: Jan 29, 2011 04:58	by Hoppip » Mar 22, 2011 03:20 Zarkor, it's obvious that improving smallman is key to improving engame RvR, but your solution simply won't work to do so. We need reasons for Level 50s to fight other level 50s. We briefly saw some form of this when Ellylls were a profitable farming spot. We need something like THAT, as well as to improve EXP spots. edit: For those who aren't familiar with what I'm talking about, Ellylls at one point had a very good droprate for salvageable items. Albion players would go there to farm, but it was at a risk. Enemy players were quickly catching onto this pattern and would use this as an opportunity to attack farming players. The result was a slight increase in smallman viabilities, and it was often times 50 vs 50 fights. An expansion on this, potentially, could result in more action generated this way as well as have a positive effect on the farming outlook. Also known as: Kiorein, Acolyn, Skiploom, and Krinton.

Zarkor Unicorn Knight Posts: 3710 Joined: Aug 15, 2006 00:00 Location: Antwerp, Flanders, Belgium	by Zarkor » Mar 22, 2011 06:51 Hoppip wrote:Zarkor, it's obvious that improving smallman is key to improving engame RvR, but your solution simply won't work to do so. We need reasons for Level 50s to fight other level 50s. We briefly saw some form of this when Ellylls were a profitable farming spot. We need something like THAT, as well as to improve EXP spots. edit: For those who aren't familiar with what I'm talking about, Ellylls at one point had a very good droprate for salvageable items. Albion players would go there to farm, but it was at a risk. Enemy players were quickly catching onto this pattern and would use this as an opportunity to attack farming players. The result was a slight increase in smallman viabilities, and it was often times 50 vs 50 fights. An expansion on this, potentially, could result in more action generated this way as well as have a positive effect on the farming outlook. Please tell me what exactly differs when you include lower levels in this story? These players could go there to farm AND level, while at the same time have to be careful for other likemined non-50s or 50s. I'd just like to point out that regarding what you just said, player level is absolutely irrelevant. A PvEer will always be at a disadvantage when being ganked, regardless the level, that's what makes them so attractive. In defense of truth-to-experience.

Hoppip Myrmidon Posts: 113 Joined: Jan 29, 2011 04:58	by Hoppip » Mar 22, 2011 07:05 Difference being that level 50s can counter attack and kill the person bugging them. And lower levels will be in the story, with good farming and leveling spots, they'll be bound to show up there, no need to force them. You're putting an unnecessary focus on lowbies, that's not where the treasure lies. =D If you think there were only 50s at Ellylls, well you'd be sorely mistaken. There were plenty of lowbies because... it was a good spot! They didn't have to be forced out of their BGs, because the spot was profitable enough. However, it clearly did not come close to replacing the BG, they served different purposes. :} Of course, that being said, the only way for the lowbies to see any competition would be to team up with 50s, who will only be there because the farming spot should be profitable and a spot for the realms to compete over. And no, the level is not a non-factor, it's the difference between a disadvantage and 0 chance. Also known as: Kiorein, Acolyn, Skiploom, and Krinton.

BobtheSkelly Myrmidon Posts: 72 Joined: Dec 30, 2010 22:30	by BobtheSkelly » Mar 22, 2011 07:44 Fiordiluna wrote:Due to huge controversy on the forums... I don't think that at the time Uthgard had the actual playing playerbase. Now things are much different, and something has to be done, to effectively transform OF in what has to naturally be the end-game of daoc. You can't think that 49.5 is your end-game just to solo in thidranki. We've come to a point at which people are scared to exp in frontiers because they could feed 100 or 200 rp at best to the ganking soloer who gets nearby. Scared. What do you fear? You're not in a game in which you lose EVERYTHING by dieing. You get 1 min rez sick. At worst you'll have to pay some gold to the healer. Is that a big deal? Following this mentality we can see that there is NO EFFORT to help the realm itself. Noone exps in frontier, therefore there's no need to patrol it when you see a noob being ganked just outside the border keeps. Same thing in DF. If it opens, there will soon be a hurry to create 8man groups to get to enemy entrance AND / OR prince, highlords, hulks, whatever. After 10 mins, a couple stealthers pop by the lowbie areas, and noone (i repeat it NO ONE) cares to clear up. If you see newly entered high level chars, they just pass by ignoring the potential threat to expers, only minding their own business. And you know why? Because they have to level to be able to join Thidranki or set up their template. All this happens thanks to the wrong mentality the actual server imposed to the people. BGs ultrawidespan initial level range (20 - 35! A level 21 gets in, and he'll deal at best 10 damage per cast or swing to an enemy level 35, IF he hits!). And the thidranki bg is lol. You can get in and never get out of it unless you're nearly RR5. Whoever tries to get in frontier too early has to deal with the BG trained toons. A nearly impossible fight. Again, this could work in a low population layout. Since Uthgard is now having much more people (very much), staff should try to make frontiers much more appealing. Enhancing xp spots, enhancing xp obtained in the frontier. Lowering the level caps of BG. Yeah, what if you'd put the old BG layout? Thid, Caledonia, Molvik, Leirvik whatever their names. Each with a 5 level range span. No 20-35 one. And let them end at best at level 44. So people may get RR4 but they'd still have to deal with level 50s in frontier. Do not fear of gankers, do not fear stealthers. It is part of the game. It is natural. Take some risks, and you'll be rewarded for that. Deaths happen, so? Want to quit just because you were ganked? If frontier exping will become rewarding, you can bet that inthe time you will have gankers, yes, but you will have hunters too (not the midgard class, i mean those who hunt for gankers). That helps developing soloers and small man grps. Not only 8vs8 superultrahigh RR or zergs. And another thing: if you fear going to the frontiers olo cause of high rr people, well, they were playing for quite some time before you. Nothing you can do. Just group and try to overcome them, or else try some sieges, keep captures, defend other ones, do rvr missions. Just like you'd buy now a NEW live daoc account. You'd be level 1 versus a game which is already 10 years old. You can bet you'll see many RR12 in frontier, but that's only natural. Otherwise why are you still playing? Because you love the game, don't you? To kind of echo this post... people need to just go out and give this stuff more of a shot and stop being so scared. So you don't have a full template? So you don't have high RR. It doesn't mean it is impossible to play, and if more people would get the guts to just roam around, it would be so much nicer. We were out in emain today with a bunch of low RR non temp non 50 players on our side, ran into albs, ran into hibs, wiped and took out them a time or two as well. Just because its not easy doesn't mean you shouldn't try. People seem to discount the human factor a lot on this server. In the end, a good player will get their kills no matter what is going on assuming they aren't trying to solo a fg or something. Ast hit on the right point, take all those Thid chars and drag a zerg out to emain at least ONCE in a while. The high RRs will have a challenge to wipe a zerg, or the other realms will attempt to zerg as well if everyone stops being scared.

Thalien Phoenix Knight Posts: 1022 Joined: Apr 18, 2009 00:00 Location: Marburg	by Thalien » Mar 22, 2011 09:28 espire wrote:The reason i'm not in emain is because I can't afford a decent template (yet). Still have lots of farming ahead of me before I can compete in rvr. I can live with the rr gap but if I ahve to compete with lower RR and sub-par stats I do not stand a chance. Thats also a problem. But only cause pepole think that. Why you belive that? It's so damn easy to get a decent template on uth. I Had enough money from xping with every toon to buy a crafted suit. Then buy some jewelry or kill some cf nameds and youre fine. Doesn't matter if you can't afford mp crafted and can't cap everything. Missing some power or 2-4% of an unimportant resist/skill ins't what decides over win or loss. RR/Skill > fullcap temp. Just get a cheap temp and go out there. You'll be able to compete. I started vr with a very cheap temp with some things missing and no procs, cause i couldn't afford them. But rvr gives also money so i could buy them later... You can always make a new template when you got enough money. Also it''s no good to spent 20p+ on a template for one toon and then get bored at rr4-5. And thats what most people do. Fabienne - Blademaster Junia - Bard Audrina - Ench ----- Zoe - Sorc Stella - Pala Devon - Scout

Hoppip Myrmidon Posts: 113 Joined: Jan 29, 2011 04:58	by Hoppip » Mar 22, 2011 09:36 People aren't "scared" to go to the frontiers to EXP or whatever, it's because it's just not worth it to go out there. It makes sense to improve EXP spots, farming spots, and etc., but removing the option to do something vastly more enjoyable and rewarding is one of the worst ways to do this. So no, lowering the BG cap or whatever may improve the frontiers marginally, but at the cost of players actually having fun. :} Maybe focus on ACTUALLY improving the frontiers themselves BEFORE messing with a system that works fine and is keeping many players happy! As for the template discussions, even a cheap temp can cost several plats depending on the class and who's making you your armor/SC/alch/etc. And if you want to solo/smallman you have to buy barrels. If you wanna be able to make em yourself or have crafters, oh look, that's a TON of farming. So don't generalize starting off in RvR as "cheap", because that's not true. Also known as: Kiorein, Acolyn, Skiploom, and Krinton.

pweet Lion Knight Posts: 4243 Joined: Dec 22, 2010 14:07	by pweet » Mar 22, 2011 10:10 I need barrels and charges, can buy them barely from my RvR activities. So no need for farming here. Temps are cheap as Thalien mentioned, so if u dont do a Stealther as ur first char u ll be fine in going to RvR directly after Thid with a bought template from the money u got till then. Worked for all of my toons.

Hoppip Myrmidon Posts: 113 Joined: Jan 29, 2011 04:58	by Hoppip » Mar 22, 2011 10:35 Do you have any crafters? And how did you afford your first set of barrels if you had to get the money from RvR? Do you mean to tell me farming is not a necessary part of this game? Also known as: Kiorein, Acolyn, Skiploom, and Krinton.

Lasastard Phoenix Knight Posts: 1180 Joined: May 28, 2009 00:00	by Lasastard » Mar 22, 2011 10:41 Thalien wrote: espire wrote:The reason i'm not in emain is because I can't afford a decent template (yet). Still have lots of farming ahead of me before I can compete in rvr. I can live with the rr gap but if I ahve to compete with lower RR and sub-par stats I do not stand a chance. Thats also a problem. But only cause pepole think that. Why you belive that? It's so damn easy to get a decent template on uth. I Had enough money from xping with every toon to buy a crafted suit. Then buy some jewelry or kill some cf nameds and youre fine. Agree. My first template had the epic torso in it so I could save a few plats - didn't hurt me in any way, tbh. If you have trouble coming up with a decent temp, just tell us your class and spec and maybe we can figure something out that won't cost an arm and a leg. People get overly obsessed with itemization, because that is all that matters in other games. But in DAoC (on Uth) you can get away with a 99% crafted armor and some readily available drops, for most classes and specs.

Topaz Myrmidon Posts: 159 Joined: Dec 11, 2010 13:23	by Topaz » Mar 22, 2011 10:43 First @ all flamers .. i DONT speak for myself in this post : All changes in bgs or removing of bgs are no solution. The only thing that happens: Bgs are empty and Big RVR stay as it is! Here on uthgard are many casual Players they enjojed Bg-play for "quick-fun". exactly this u dont get in the frontier-zones. But i can tell you what casuals and other players (that want to start making "big RVR") get in "big-RVR": they get : NO Group (equal what char) they get: FLAMES in game cause of "adding" they get: bad emo-spams from own realm mates. they get: ignorance from wannabe elite-players. they get a bad name in the realm for "adding and zerging" they get flamed as n00bs and the best of all: they make it WITHOUT knowing the other player. Wow and then complain about bad rvr activities? this is 1 reason cause big rvr is very unattractive for most players . But it seems this arguments are tabu for threads like this. But its not the only reason.. the other reason is in my sig..