Thraxia wrote:Wouldn't this make experienced groups try to get other ppl out of Agramon? And what about levelers they'd count in as well (and those tend to not participate in RvR at all).
I like some aspects of your idea but IMO it'd result in even more realm switching (logging from one realm to another), which isn't exactly what we need atm

Duke hit on an important point and purpose behind my proposal. Ill quote and then explain it:

See a positive aspect in this, they changed the realm because in one realm there were to much enemies so the enemy logged out, they created rvr for you. Do you see what I wanna say?

The issue is that experienced groups are unlikely to group new comers or so called 'inexperienced' players to begin with. Whether or not they try to 'run off' people out of the realm is irrelevant. What can they feasibly do to someone from their same realm except refuse to participate in rvr? =P Under my proposal, even If they log into another realm just to 'clean the other groups out' then they are simply just shooting themselves in the foot.

Under my initial proposal, the side that has the most people will receive a penalty to RP's. Levelers would be included in this figure. Levelers are a fair (although lame) target for people to pursue and kill. Levelers would be a minor factor in this at worst though,. The purpose of the penalties is to disencourage overpopulation which by its nature means others would choose to play in a particular realm. This happens naturally in any event that populations shift on uthgard. The purpose behind the bonuses/penalties is to create some sort of natural balance to all sides here where if you choose to play in an over populated realm then you simply have to deal with the consequences (lower rp gain) or you may choose to log in to your other characters in another realm to even thing s out.

The bonuses are in place not as an encouragement for 'experienced groups' but as a means of giving some sense of fair play to those realms who cannot field a lot of people to compete. Their victories may be far and few between against 3:1 odds so therefore they need all the encouragement that they can get to actively remain in rvr.

The whole purpose of the proposal was to encourage people to not log out, even if outnumbered. Under the first example i gave, you will notice that the penalty is not permenant. There is (and should be) a timer on this in which the player must remain logged in before it wears off. Think of it as a temporary debuff to realm point gain. If you wait it out, then you gain normal rp gain again. The timer is just there as a means to disencourage realm changing (as you guys pointed out) to get bonuses in another realm using another character. At the same time though, it encourages players to make a choice on whether it is more important for them to take a penalty on their current character (since the debuff will remain if they log back in on that character at a later date) or if they would have more fun should they choose to log in to the lower population realm to acquire the bonus. The RP bonuses are there to encourage those people in the underpopulated realm to stay where they are and not leave the fight. In my opinon this preserves the spirit of the 3 realm war.

I believe that overall this would make it so that 'experienced groups' as it is put would see little personal benifit for themselves to log in to another realm to attack other players to 'clear the field' due to the innate penalties on their characters. I doubt such groups of individuals would like to acquire any such penalty to their RP gains and it would be an incentive for them to avoid taking such actions.

We just need to face it that people shift between realms to begin with and short of a total ban on the practice, this wont be changing due to a number of reasons.



For the sake of argument, I suppose the realm status checks could also include whether or not a player has participated in an rvr kill (gained rps) during their period of time out in the zone. This could be the determining factor as to whether a character is a 'leveler' or not and would subsequently remove them from the rp penalties/bonuses for that particular realm check cycle. If a cycle occurs, and hte player has gotten some realm points (or attacked other players) during that time, then they are flagged as rvr participants and are weighted into the overall bonus/penalty. Since these checks are made in cycles, other people participating in rvr are not permenantly penalized in the "rare" cases where some individuals participate in rvr and then decide to level.






I've added some more examples for how to deal with non participants in rvr:





Example 6


The now seasoned Veteran Bob continues fighting for migard. Things are still bleak for the realm. The population balance remains in favor of hibernia and albion and now midgard has 25 players, albion has 50 players and hibernia has 100 players. Bob logs in to the zone just as the realm status check occurs. He and everyone else in his realm who are present in the zone with him now get a 50% bonus to realm points earned. Everyone cheers! Bob then notices that 10 of the 25 midgard players are leveling. Bob sighs deeply. 1 hour later the people are still there, and still havent participated in rvr when the realm status check occurs. Midgard's RP bonus is now increased to 75% due to it now checking only the 15 active participants in rvr. Bob Cheers again!






Example 7


Bob TheUndefeatable maintains his loyalty to midgard. Things are still bleak for the realm. The population balance remains in favor of hibernia and albion and now midgard has 25 players, albion has 50 players and hibernia has 100 players. Bob logs in to the zone just as the realm status check occurs. He and everyone else in his realm who are present in the zone with him now get a 50% bonus to realm points earned. Everyone cheers! Bob then notices that 10 of the 25 midgard players are leveling. Bob sighs deeply. 1 hour goes by and these players haven't participated in rvr by the time the realm status check occurs. Midgard's Bonus now increases to 75%. Everyone cheers! During a fight however, bob's group and the groups of levelers engage some enemies. The levelers manage to attack some enemy realm players and acquire some RPs. A few seconds later, the realm status check occurs. Midgard's RP bonus is now decreased to 50% due to it now checking all 25 active participants in rvr. Bob and this group sigh deeply.






Example 8


Midgard's fortunes have shifted for the better and Bob TheUndefeatable logs in to seize the moment. The population balance is now midgard and hibernia and now midgard has 100 players, albion has 25 players and hibernia has 50 players. Bob logs in to the zone just as the realm status check occurs. He and everyone else in his realm who are present in the zone with him now get a 50% penalty to realm points earned. Everyone boos! Bob then notices that 50 of the 100 midgard players are leveling. Bob sighs deeply. 1 hour goes by and these players haven't participated in rvr by the time the realm status check occurs. Midgard's penalty now decrease to 0%, meaning all sides are equal. Everyone cheers!

During a fight however, bob's group and the groups of levelers engage some enemies. The levelers manage to attack some enemy realm players and acquire some RPs. A few seconds later, the realm status check occurs. Midgard's RP bonus is now decreased to 50% due to it now checking all 100 active participants in rvr. Bob and this group sigh deeply.

rvr and pve have a lot in common.



you bash stuff to get something. (xp - rp)

you do not "hunt" in an area that has been claimed by another player.

and you don´t attack just because a mob is "aggresive" or just there...

you don´t attack other players "mobs" either without that guy asking for

everyone is happy

---

you bash stuff to get something (xp - rp)

you don´t care about taken spots and attack whatever you like.

you attack other players "mobs" cause it belongs to another realm.

everyone hates you.


funny, isn´t it ?

Duke wrote:... I can also remember broadcasts from adders who sended "Haha I leached 2 k RPs of your fight"

I have never seen anyone say something like this, but I wasn't active lately, and no that is not an insult, that someone is just saying what happened, if it ****** you off and you go into emorage and start insulting people that is YOUR problem not his. Saying that is offensive because it simulates insults from the "NO ADD!!!1" group is dumb, because that means they don't have control over themselves but are instead controlled by some kind of script that starts insulting people.

Duke wrote:

monty wrote:[...] and if we form a grp and go to the battlefield anyway, we got ignored or told we killed rvr, but 10 min later we got killed by the same guy's who changed realms to finish us off...

[...]

See a positive aspect in this, they changed the realm because in one realm there were to much enemies so the enemy logged out, they created rvr for you. Do you see what I wanna say?

So in your mind it's ok to insult people and try to chase them away from rvr and when that doesn't work just relog in another realm and kill them?
HONOR AND VALOR indeed.

got an idea

deactivate rp gain outside of agramon , so people who are interested for good clean fights can meet outside of it without getting blamed for rp farming.

3 grp mids in agra and they constantly add ? go to hadrians wall and have your clean fights there.
zone could be topic in an irc channel - so everyone knows where to go.
just deactivate rp´s outside of agra and there should be no problem with rp-farming etc.

would be easier to create a bg for that but that won´t happen^^

rps is what people seem to go for instead of the fun/challenge - so whats the point adding into a clean fight when you get nothing for it ?
and i´m not alone with that attitude.i would give up rp´s for clean fights anyday.

so if you got adds all the time in agramon you got somewhere else to go.no need to blame anyone cause there would be a tolerated alternative then.

The only solution is a complete RP reset, so the people who have been farming RP for years (preset 8v8 fights on irc) and think they're good because they're high RR find out how terrible at this game they really are.

Before starting on Uthgard I've never seen the term "adding" in DAoC nor have I seen such high RR people (RR6+) being so terrible at RvR. It was like watching the special olympics, listening to them whine after you joined the battle was even worse.

*sign* salbei

but it will be punished by staff cause u have fun .. u are just allowed to make war not to have fun

i think the only solution here would be an idea like Salbei wrote.
make an extra zone without rp gain for those who just want fair Battles.

and forbid no add flame in the broad channel.
And make a timer for at least 60 min before anyone can switch realms.(dunno if its even possible)

how about something like "capture the flag" again or just use one of the many bg´s we have.

and the timer for those who just go in irc and ask one who is twinking in the other realm atm to get the last spot in the group filled with the tank wich is missing for the perfect setup for example.

and i dont think this additude some have, has anything to do with rr .
There are more high rr ppl wich still have their feet on the ground then these dont add cryers,wich are anyways only a few but they somehow manage to poison the air for everyone.

A zone without xp gain would be nice, duels orso would be nice aswell, but for the main RvR thing, it has nothing to do with the server or anything, it's 100% player mentality.

In agramon I've seen alot of people wait for a battle to finish before they add, To all people who let us finish our fights before they attacked, thank you, you earn my respect and I hope to fight you guys again soon.

But the thing that frustrates me most, are the people who would do absolutely anything for realmpoints. I've seen people in braemar with an overcharged masterpiece armor set, inventory chokefull of potions and items with charges, using incredibly lame tactics such as pulling people into the water with nereids , etc etc, just to kill them. Alot of people going to the frontiers just to have some fun, have a good time, get pretty annoyed by such rp-hungry folk.


It doesn't matter howmuch realmpoints you have, realmpoints don't reflect how good you are, realmpoints are but 1's and 0's.
Who cares howmuch RP's you got if everyone thinks you're annoying pile of dog excretion.

malle wrote:but it will be punished by staff cause u have fun .. u are just allowed to make war not to have fun

I hope i don't have to tell you that this is bullshit.

You don't seem to get the point, why we don't want arranged duels/battles: You exclude everyone else from any action. If you arrange a meeting outside of the main action, all the other players don't have a chance to participate. We don't have enough players for such experiments. We could talk about such threads if we had 400+ players.

Nayru wrote:

malle wrote:but it will be punished by staff cause u have fun .. u are just allowed to make war not to have fun

I hope i don't have to tell you that this is bullshit.

You don't seem to get the point, why we don't want arranged duels/battles: You exclude everyone else from any action. If you arrange a meeting outside of the main action, all the other players don't have a chance to participate. We don't have enough players for such experiments. We could talk about such threads if we had 400+ players.

We don't have enough players for this adding attitude either. Everytime the second group adds in the fight of the first group, the other realm is having less fun and thinks about logging out. The group that has been added didn't have much fun either. And especially when there is such an imbalance among the realms (Midgard has no problems getting 3 or 4 full groups to Agramon, Alb rarely gets one), people destroy the fun, because there is just no chance the other realm zergs back. So basicly, 8 people ruin the fun of 16 other players.
Now, why should it be unfair if those 16 poeple organize RvR on some distant spot where the adders can't reach them in time?

Pantaloon put my thoughts on paper... ok in this case on pixels..

Folks, you're getting off topic here. I think there is some agreement that the situation as it stands, is not good for the server. What we should be focusing on here isn't whether or not 'adding' or petty squabbling (name calling etc) are bad things. The focus should be on what can we do to offer incentives to actually continue playing despite the conduct of some particularly frustrating individuals. Additionally we should be discussing ideas on what we and the staff can do to minimize interactions with such people without resorting to questionable methods such as outright bans on people. In my opinion, administrative action is not the way to go with this. I highly recommend setting up incentives for people to remain in a zone, and that also disencourage them from logging out. There are a lot of issues at play here. Here are some of the main ones:

1. realm population imbalances
2. realm rank imbalances
3. attraction of new players
4. improper social conduct between players


I think at least 3 out of 4 listed here are all interconnected to a degree and each has a role in the other.

We can look at the issue of realm population imbalance as a periodic and probably inevitable trend, but when it is combined with poor conduct between players, we can see that adds to the frustration for a player (or groups of players) on the low population realm(s). In effect it can just amplify the frustration of being outnumbered/outgunned and so forth. Now what if we add things like bonuses/penalties based on population? Surely this can at least mitigate some of the frustration factor involved with playing since you know you are getting at least some benifit to your play,especially if you lose more often than you win. Additionally, it mitigates the 'social' element here in that I would think that individuals would be less concentrated on squabbling with their realm mates (or opposite realm members) and more fixed upon playing the game and making use of their bonuses while they have them. As it stands, there are no incentives for people to join lower population realms nor are there any to remain logged in, which only exacerbates the problems.

On the issue of higher realm rank players. While this isnt necessarily the wrongdoing of any player; the sheer reality is that there are quite a good number of elder members of the server and individuals whom have high realm rank here and with that, come a whole host of problems. Some of these issues being that for new players or lower realm ranked players, it presents an extremely high barrier to their own progression when faced against these situations. Not only are new players more likely to be in pick up groups, but similarly ranked pick up groups. Their chances of winning engagements are bad enough as it is without adding in highly organized bands of people running around. There simply arent any incentives for these people to continue playing against such odds, especially in the situations where the only active players in the zones to fight are these bands of veterans.

Taking measures to recruit new players to uthgard through offering incentives to play here as opposed to joining other servers should be taken into consideration as well. More people playing means people are less likely to see the same faces every day and are less likely to single out individual (or individuals) to solely direct their frustrations at. Furthermore, more people in rvr means more action and with that, there become fewer reasons for people to log out or do other activities. There are tons of ways to make uthgard more attractive to new people. Some things that could be done passively would be simply to finish implementing the missing classes (animist, bone dancer, necromancer). That alone in my opinion would hold some people here. Other proposals have been adding in experience bonuses and other rewards. Finding out the reasons why people choose to avoid uthgard or stop playing here all together should be a priority. I can offer opinions on that matter but this should be a group effort from all involved.

There really are lots of ideas out there to try out where we can get the focus /frustrations back on the game mechanics rather than directing them against other players. The staff and players must work together in solving the systemic problems with uthgard and I believe I have outlined at least 4 of these key issues, as I see them.

Nayru wrote:If you arrange a meeting outside of the main action, all the other players don't have a chance to participate. We don't have enough players for such experiments. We could talk about such threads if we had 400+ players.

pantal00n wrote:Now, why should it be unfair if those 16 poeple organize RvR on some distant spot where the adders can't reach them in time?

Now read again, and answer your own question. You know why you can't get more people? Because you don't want to. Simple as that. And even if you did, people would probably not come because they recognize you as the NO ADD!!1 guy.

Nayru wrote:
You don't seem to get the point, why we don't want arranged duels/battles: You exclude everyone else from any action. If you arrange a meeting outside of the main action, all the other players don't have a chance to participate. We don't have enough players for such experiments. We could talk about such threads if we had 400+ players.

what about all the bg´s we have ?

its only a hand full of of those dont add cryers compared to the lvl 50s wich could but dont join agra ppl^^



so might be worth a try

we have so many lvl 50s on this server ,agramon should be way to small .
but somehow you are always fighting the same ppl/realmtwinks

no wonder they dont come there. Eather they wont be invited cause they wear epic or they are just afraid to do mistakes between all these pro´s

wich seem to control agra.

its always the same. Someone finaly reaches lvl 50 , goes agra a few times until he decides to make a new twink for braemar cause its more fun there.

Why? ...

/sign Esme