Game mechanics and design decisions set the only hard boundaries, everything else originates from players and cannot be enforced by any means.

People complaining about lack of honor can complain as much as they want, and it's their right to complain that it affects their favourite gamestyle, but that won't change the fact that anyone is free to behave the way they want, within the limit set by the game's mechanics and code of conduct set by gms.

When i used to play on Broceliande, the biggest French server, Mid was the underdog, and prime time in emain was a zergfest of hundreds of hibs and albs passing amg in more than less messy fights, at 20 fps without shadows enabled, down to 2fps with. There was no way for a 8 man group at that time to find what you're calling here a "fair fight". Hell, even stealthers were ganging up and zerg.

The meta for this kind of fixed group then had to change, and it did. The challenge became, as Mordigg said, to figure out how to take a whole zerg with a small gang. War Legends would take Crauchon and pbaoe the hell out of dozens of brainless albs going up the tower without even knowing that gtaoe is a thing. They made their reputation out of that.

When the 1% competitive people hit 50 in january, they had plenty of space for honouring the gameplay they wanted. Now after 4 month and an event like the bonus xp Easter week end, crowds are hitting 50 and frontiers are going to get much more populated than before, up to a certain limit of course for a 15 years old game on a free shard. This is the end of an era for limited fights with boundaries, so please adapt, for your own enjoyment of the game and for a relative sanity on this forum.

Also, I wonder if games like LoL, DotA, Overwatch, or services like Twitch had an influence on the evolution of competitive players aspiration over the past ten years.

XiaN^^ wrote:

dabrixmgp wrote:I started playing DAoC in November of 2001 and I dont remember 8v8 being a thing back then. I remember running around with large groups of Albs fighting other large groups of Hibs and Mids. The most fun I ever had was fighting a large Mid group then having a large Hib group come in and ass jam us. Some times the 3rd group took our side and helped us and sometimes they helped in our demise. I never got mad because it was fun. Now you have all these rules. I have both been in fights and watched streamers where the 3rd realm wont jump in the fight. What the hell is this crap and when did it begin because I dont remember RvR being like this 15 years ago.

it has pretty much been a thing since year 1 as to the players that were actually good (if you can even use that word for that era) it became clear very quickly that 8v8 is the most competitive and enjoyable way to play the game. rules werent as strict as they are now as everything was still in development but its not like some messiah one day came into IRC and brought everyone the 10 commandments. the rules developed naturally cos ppl felt like its the right thing to do to not add ongoing fights or pull off when a 3rd group adds a fight. the fact that the same ruleset developed on all servers all over the world independently from each other should give you a hint that thats the correct way to play the game.

No, it should give you hint, that there was a subset of players on every server preferring to play that way. But compared to the general population they were a drop in the ocean. And claiming your preference as "the right way to play" based on that is very ignorant and elitist, imo.

Don't get me wrong, i love 8vs8 fights too. Few things in daoc are better than being in a stalemate for 10-15minutes and finally getting an edge and beating the enemy grp. But i also hate areanaservers...they take a big thrill out of the game. Constant danger, no situation is ever under full control. And beating an enemy group while being added multiple times during the fight. Having all 3realms involved, pulling out, reforming, crashing back in...etc. is all a subset of skill that all elitist 8mans seem to have forgotten about. Let all people play they way THEY enjoy, trying to force your rules onto another is pathetic

joshisanonymous wrote:

XiaN^^ wrote:

dabrixmgp wrote:I started playing DAoC in November of 2001 and I dont remember 8v8 being a thing back then. I remember running around with large groups of Albs fighting other large groups of Hibs and Mids. The most fun I ever had was fighting a large Mid group then having a large Hib group come in and ass jam us. Some times the 3rd group took our side and helped us and sometimes they helped in our demise. I never got mad because it was fun. Now you have all these rules. I have both been in fights and watched streamers where the 3rd realm wont jump in the fight. What the hell is this crap and when did it begin because I dont remember RvR being like this 15 years ago.

it has pretty much been a thing since year 1 as to the players that were actually good (if you can even use that word for that era) it became clear very quickly that 8v8 is the most competitive and enjoyable way to play the game. rules werent as strict as they are now as everything was still in development but its not like some messiah one day came into IRC and brought everyone the 10 commandments. the rules developed naturally cos ppl felt like its the right thing to do to not add ongoing fights or pull off when a 3rd group adds a fight. the fact that the same ruleset developed on all servers all over the world independently from each other should give you a hint that thats the correct way to play the game.

Then I've never played this game correctly, which is shocking to me since I've had plenty of fun playing it incorrectly.

I feel like these "rules" are what the OP was referring more to. Obviously people ran in groups of 8, but it doesn't seem like these "rules" really existed early on. I said it already but I'll say it again, all the 8-mans I knew of back in the day were interested in zerg busting, not arena-style 8v8 fighting. They were 8vX groups, which makes infinitely more sense in an open world factional PvP game like DAoC. I read VNBoards a lot early on, and I don't recall ever seeing a complaint about one 8-man adding onto another 8-man. The closest thing to that I can remember is complaining about zergs, but it was just the groups that couldn't hang that did that. The others were happy to have so many RPs and so much spam.

no1 cared about random zerglings adding on fights back then no. but you have to keep in mind that it was a different time. back then a random zergling group had zero organization, no voice coms, horrendous group setups, for the most part no templates, awful specs and very low realm rank. an organized guild group of competent players could 8v100 those kinda zergs without problems and no1 complained when they played like they did. nowadays even the worst pugs have a basic understanding of the game and can comprehend that a group of 3 paladins, a friar , 2 wizzards and 2 minstrels without templates, ridiculous specs and no voice coms will not work very well. however those kinda zergs dont exist anymore and even the worst groups on the server are infinity times more organized than those true oldschool pugs. nowadays its zergs of awful but mostly properly specced and templated players with voice com that play mostly reasonable setups very poorly. but when 5 of those groups run together and jam every fight they find its still too much to handle, especially considering that fights between decent groups can be close and little things can make all the difference. also i dont see how it could possibly be fun to play like that. they make 0 rps have 0 challenge, learn absolutely nothing and the only real reason they do it is cos they are jelly of ppl who are obviously infinity times better at the game and want to ruin their fun. that beeing said the groups that were on top of the food chain already didnt add on each other back then and when it happened for whatever reason the irc drama was huge.

so what do you suggest those players do?

As you said, they are not part of the "top of the foodchain" grps. So do you suggest they just run into the 8mans and feed them RPs until they are even more unbeatable?


turn around that argument though:
8man gets AJ by 5stickgroups zerging around...how is that fun for them, why do you keep playing? i mean getting ****** by a zerg over and over gives you nothing, 0RP, you learn nothing and you only do it because you know in a "fair" fight ("fair" because they have no chance and you wipe the floor with them, isn't really fun neither imo...i rather have a close fight vs 2grps, then mopping them up one after another without any resistance) you can beat their asses (but that's not happening as they don't go out as a group)

just because you don't see why they do it, doesn't mean they don't have a reason to do it. And i BET that some of them even just do it, to farm your salty tears for not having a "fair" fight. So basically by complaining and whining about this all the time, you are giving (some of) them more incentive to do it again. They want to stick it to the elitist 8mans that believe they are a superior breed of players just because they play with the same people regularly every other day in fotm-setups.
Think about it...

Musaks wrote:so what do you suggest those players do?

As you said, they are not part of the "top of the foodchain" grps. So do you suggest they just run into the 8mans and feed them RPs until they are even more unbeatable?


turn around that argument though:
8man gets AJ by 5stickgroups zerging around...how is that fun for them, why do you keep playing? i mean getting ****** by a zerg over and over gives you nothing, 0RP, you learn nothing and you only do it because you know in a "fair" fight ("fair" because they have no chance and you wipe the floor with them, isn't really fun neither imo...i rather have a close fight vs 2grps, then mopping them up one after another without any resistance) you can beat their asses (but that's not happening as they don't go out as a group)

just because you don't see why they do it, doesn't mean they don't have a reason to do it. And i BET that some of them even just do it, to farm your salty tears for not having a "fair" fight. So basically by complaining and whining about this all the time, you are giving (some of) them more incentive to do it again. They want to stick it to the elitist 8mans that believe they are a superior breed of players just because they play with the same people regularly every other day in fotm-setups.
Think about it...

actually we log off when it becomes too zergy and 8v8 is impossible to find. we also quit servers when the existing 8v8 groups provide no challenge cos steamrolling everyone in 20 secs is indeed boring and not worth our freetime. in the last month ive played for <15 hours total for those 2 reasons. there is like 1-2 groups that are fun to fight cos they can provide a challenge and they arent always out either.

also there is no such thing as fotm setups. there are setups that work and setups that dont. there is no inbetween. also as a competitive player you have no choice but running a set group on this server, atleast on mid. its impossible to run a pug cos everyone is complete trash. my whitelist of puggable ppl is literally 3 players. rest isnt invite-worthy.

so you want to impress ppl in a forum of a game you dont even play?
mid has 5relics again, so i saw some ppl of your guild login in again, guess thats the competition you need you write about
challenge picked up after the first weeks and there you go, you and your guild disappeared

XiaN^^ wrote: ... and the only real reason they do it is cos they are jelly of ppl who are obviously infinity times better at the game and want to ruin their fun.

Wow. Just wow. You are both delusional and incredibly self-absorbed.

XiaN^^ wrote:but when 5 of those groups run together and jam every fight they find its still too much to handle, especially considering that fights between decent groups can be close and little things can make all the difference.

So you're saying fighting against 5 poorly played groups is too much of a challenge for you? But I thought you only liked playing when you it's challenging?

You're so full of ******. I'm glad that you don't play anymore. You're the reason there's a stereotype of hardcore 8mans being a bunch of elitist ******. Thankfully they're not all like you.

XiaN^^ wrote:actually we log off when it becomes too zergy and 8v8 is impossible to find. we also quit servers when the existing 8v8 groups provide no challenge cos steamrolling everyone in 20 secs is indeed boring and not worth our freetime. in the last month ive played for <15 hours total for those 2 reasons. there is like 1-2 groups that are fun to fight cos they can provide a challenge and they arent always out either.

also there is no such thing as fotm setups. there are setups that work and setups that dont. there is no inbetween. also as a competitive player you have no choice but running a set group on this server, atleast on mid. its impossible to run a pug cos everyone is complete trash. my whitelist of puggable ppl is literally 3 players. rest isnt invite-worthy.

Ah, the "I've won this server so I may quit" argument. Very original. As for the rest of it, I can only assume that you are trolling. Insults to your realm mates aside, your argument is that you aren't having fun because the rest of the server (1) isn't playing your way, or (2) isn't good enough to play your way. You then threaten to take your ball and go home if this doesn't change.

XiaN^^ wrote:but when 5 of those groups run together and jam every fight they find its still too much to handle, especially considering that fights between decent groups can be close and little things can make all the difference.

First, I disagree that it is too much to handle. In the 17 year history of this game, MANY groups have shown proficiency in kiting, and stringing along a fight so that even if they get a mini-zerg add, they can string out a win, or get away, reset and come back. Even limiting to Pre-TOA times, and the speed killing abilities it brought, this was possible. Because I played on Igraine, the group that comes to mind is the alb group Angry Zerging Noobsters - a group that regularly ran with a scout, arms, pal, occasionally with an Inf, and a few casters. They ran 8 and did just fine regardless of the numbers of enemies they fought, and who added on to their fights. But I will accept that you refuse to run a group setup that can adapt to these situations, and that

Two easy fixes: 1 - run with another group, and break the 5-group zerg with two groups until they stop coming out -- which admittedly may be difficult for you given your attitude towards your realm mates; or 2 - coordinate with the 1-2 groups of "worthy" adversaries, and meet in a remote zone where no one knows or cares what you are doing to run your fights where no one will bother you. Hell, even bring a resser for each side so you don't have to wait on port, and invite your realm mates to watch so that they can learn about what to do.

You are in control of your fun. And if crying on the boards and insulting people is what gives you fun, then by all means continue.

joshisanonymous wrote:You're so full of ******. I'm glad that you don't play anymore. You're the reason there's a stereotype of hardcore 8mans being a bunch of elitist ******. Thankfully they're not all like you.

Yeah I'm with you. The actually good 8mans on this server tend to be the most pleasant to deal with (thinking of the Sean group in particular). They seem rather pleasant overall, at least based on the forum exchanges I've seen of them. Seems like the Mid 8mans tend to be the nastier and more unpleasant groups. This XiAN!!^^^ dude being the worst of them.

Just because you don't like somebody it doesn't make their point invalid.


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respect others if you would like them to respect you

I remember there being 1 8man per realm on Percival very early... the first notable ones being Wolves of Valhalla and Solus something or other.

Blood and Wine showed up sometime in SI with a video wiping 28 or so mids as 8. The dream of having 8 who could rip through the mindless zergs was strong on our server after that video.

I can't speak to the 8v8 culture on that server, but by 04 on guin it was in full effect.

For op... with regard to the 8v8 culture on this server: if it's 8v8 we respect their fight as that's how we'd want to be treated. If it's more than 2 groups involved add away my friend. We still get zergy tri-realm fights.

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Yeah videos like that created the myth of 8mans can kill everything in their way and this later on created the 8vs8 thing. At the beginning it was more 8vsZerg.

XiaN^^ wrote:

Musaks wrote:so what do you suggest those players do?
actually we log off when it becomes too zergy and 8v8 is impossible to find. we also quit servers when the existing 8v8 groups provide no challenge cos steamrolling everyone in 20 secs is indeed boring and not worth our freetime. in the last month ive played for <15 hours total for those 2 reasons. there is like 1-2 groups that are fun to fight cos they can provide a challenge and they arent always out either.

also there is no such thing as fotm setups. there are setups that work and setups that dont. there is no inbetween. also as a competitive player you have no choice but running a set group on this server, atleast on mid. its impossible to run a pug cos everyone is complete trash. my whitelist of puggable ppl is literally 3 players. rest isnt invite-worthy.

You beat RR1 untemplated players due to the 2 weeks of horrible lag on Alb and Animists being unplayable, and farmed them to RR6 in 2 weeks. You would never beat us, and I'm pretty sure others here would agree. Moc spreadheal stops working when your opponents pass RR4. Pretty sure the Salt and Playfull groups would own you guys too. Maybe you should come back?

#notsobigboyos 3-11-17 30 second club, video to prove it.

Ensley03 wrote:

XiaN^^ wrote:

Musaks wrote:so what do you suggest those players do?
actually we log off when it becomes too zergy and 8v8 is impossible to find. we also quit servers when the existing 8v8 groups provide no challenge cos steamrolling everyone in 20 secs is indeed boring and not worth our freetime. in the last month ive played for <15 hours total for those 2 reasons. there is like 1-2 groups that are fun to fight cos they can provide a challenge and they arent always out either.

also there is no such thing as fotm setups. there are setups that work and setups that dont. there is no inbetween. also as a competitive player you have no choice but running a set group on this server, atleast on mid. its impossible to run a pug cos everyone is complete trash. my whitelist of puggable ppl is literally 3 players. rest isnt invite-worthy.

You beat RR1 untemplated players due to the 2 weeks of horrible lag on Alb and Animists being unplayable, and farmed them to RR6 in 2 weeks. You would never beat us, and I'm pretty sure others here would agree. Moc spreadheal stops working when your opponents pass RR4. Pretty sure the Salt and Playfull groups would own you guys too. Maybe you should come back?

#notsobigboyos 3-11-17 30 second club, video to prove it.

maybe you should provide a link to that video cos personally ive lost exactly one fight to you and beat you about 100 times. never lost a fight to playfull and i dont even know who/what salt is. there is one group on this server that can give a consistent challenge on this server and that is dark dawn which we´re about 50/50 with. probably slightly in our favor when we have our full guild group. all the NA time groups arent even worth mentioning. they are just free rps. moc spreadheal rofl, just shows how little you know. ive never even had moc on this server and the only one in our grp who has it is our paci and he is deffo not using it to heal. saying you or anyone else could consistently beat us is just delusional and you know it.