Seksy wrote:I don't want people in BG's more then they already will.

You cannot force people to play the way you think they should be playing.

True thats why im fine with xp off, although rp off woul be bad since it would just make it just too convinient/alter the progression. You can loose xp so xp off would be fine but rp off would be completly custom . (also if the 50 have to work for rvr. Bgler should aswell

borog wrote:Plus lets not forget that the most vocal people on this forum are the RVR wolves. Casual sheep do not bother posting so don't really get an opinion and if they do venture an opinion it gets ignored because their RR isn't high enough.

hehe my first post on the uthgard forums when I first came here in 2012 ended up with 70+ something replies. It was complaining how slow and awful emain was American times and how the action was an how different the action was compared to thid.

When I logged back into the game after this post I received a few /sends from people saying "OMG did you actually criticize emain macha on the uthgard forums? OMG you are new to the server and now everyone is going to think you are a total noob OMG I cannot believe you said that!!!!!"

I couldn't care less what the self-proclaimed uthgard "cool kids" think about my opinions and I stand by everything I said back then, don't like me or think I am not "elite enough" to have an opinion?..............

I guess I already posted this 100 times, but why not 101 times:

-/rp off kills the casual fun in BGs! At first everyone thinks "hey cool, I don't have to reroll and can stay here and have casual fun forever".

But the effect in the longrun is: Setgroups level perfect equiped bg rvr grps with perfect setup and farm the casual player in the BGs all day long. Who can blame them, this is a lot of fun.

Maybe not the best rvr groups. but at least the ones not good enough for primetime emain, still good enough to farm casual random pugs in the BG. So no more easy fun in BG for everyone.

holsten-knight wrote:I guess I already posted this 100 times, but why not 101 times:

-/rp off kills the casual fun in BGs! At first everyone thinks "hey cool, I don't have to reroll and can stay here and have casual fun forever".

But the effect in the longrun is: Setgroups level perfect equiped bg rvr grps with perfect setup and farm the casual player in the BGs all day long. Who can blame them, this is a lot of fun.

Maybe not the best rvr groups. but at least the ones not good enough for primetime emain, still good enough to farm casual random pugs in the BG. So no more easy fun in BG for everyone.

I agree... wow..

holsten-knight wrote:I guess I already posted this 100 times, but why not 101 times:

-/rp off kills the casual fun in BGs! At first everyone thinks "hey cool, I don't have to reroll and can stay here and have casual fun forever".

But the effect in the longrun is: Setgroups level perfect equiped bg rvr grps with perfect setup and farm the casual player in the BGs all day long. Who can blame them, this is a lot of fun.

Maybe not the best rvr groups. but at least the ones not good enough for primetime emain, still good enough to farm casual random pugs in the BG. So no more easy fun in BG for everyone.

RP off is a terrible Idea.

Holsten ´s post changed my mind, but /xp off would be at least nice... I don ´t find it entertaining when ppl kill themselves like lemmings, that ´s not fitting my understanding of the game and looks weird.... if Daoc would be a parody game in the kind of knights of the coconut , it would be ok, but so....

Yes /xp off
Or maybe you just can't ding in bg.

No /rp off

HulkGris wrote:

Orihiime wrote:The BG lovers don't want a 8v8 or solo competitive activity, they want to be able to log, join a random group asap, and play without trying to compete against well organized and optimized group. And that's not possible in end game if the only RvR activity is 8v8. Uthgard V2 need rvr zerg.

Agree, for a healthy game you need Casual Zerg groups, Zerg Buster groups (Me!), 8v8 groups and REALM PRIDE.... Realm pride will make for a great environment.

i think in uthgard 1.0 reputation was a factor on such an established server, people were attacked in various ways for bad sportsmanship. casuals found a home in bg's for the reasons u all mentioned and they only realy came to emain in numbers which always resulted in my initial statement, they get attacked.

fact is zergs are welcome, if u are casual primetime and ur building a grp... why not build 2. i can tell u as one of the elite 8 mans in my time that we would not shy from such a fight.

that being said there are some factors to be taken into consideration, such as building a 5 fg zerg when each enemy realm can only provide 1 fg or 2 at a stretch and still not be able to compete, or zerging amgs wiping out all solo and smallman action.

who in their right mind builds a giant zerg to kill solo's,

this is how it should be..............

each night should gradually escalate, just try as 1 fg first of all. if u find no success or more importantly no fun, then add a grp. now u are 2 fgs having success with a bit of luck, enemy realms start to build up also now they cant handle the heat so the active 8mans running merge, and the zerg action erupts but numbers are rapidly building, the 8v8 has all but stopped or moved zone... and i think its down to the 8 mans to move for clean 8v8's since emain is a desired zone for all and the strongest force should dominate it if they choose. zerg action will either go on for the duration of primetime or if enemy realms give up the fight the zerg should imo move to relics, and not attempt to hunt down the 8 mans or solos who choose to change zone, also i might add that attacking relics for a zerg is ur best bet to reignite the zerg action.

my point being, i realy hate bgs, its JUST a stepping stone !! i hate how there is a seperate rvr community living there. i think we shouldnt encourage or make it easier for the bg life to continue but i also dnt think commands and caps will stop people from having fun in the only place they can. i think only change in the attitudes on people already in end game rvr zones will encourage everyone to take part.

holsten-knight wrote:I guess I already posted this 100 times, but why not 101 times:

-/rp off kills the casual fun in BGs! At first everyone thinks "hey cool, I don't have to reroll and can stay here and have casual fun forever".

But the effect in the longrun is: Setgroups level perfect equiped bg rvr grps with perfect setup and farm the casual player in the BGs all day long. Who can blame them, this is a lot of fun.

Maybe not the best rvr groups. but at least the ones not good enough for primetime emain, still good enough to farm casual random pugs in the BG. So no more easy fun in BG for everyone.

I see your point holsten, at the moment im playing genesis, and i am one of the people who usually go into BGs with my SC gear since i usually run into bgs when there is nothing fun i can do in emain, especially since i dont have an active guild that can bring 8man group, nor sometimes i have the energy to try to build a group, so i rather like to have some "quick" action in BGs, and actually being able to get my chances/fun as a smallman instead of run always in FG.

On a fully healthy server, the removal of /rp off would give the benefits that everyone think it would, since there would be always fresh blood that will flow in both BGs and 50-RvR which will keep them constantly alive.
Unfortunately on a "weak" server (on the RvR side) it can bring some nasty side effects for the called "casual" players and the ones who log for a small portion of time (and dont belong to any elite group which would grant them a groupslot/fun of course).

Basically, sooner or later everyone will have a level 50 toon to play 50 rvr after some months (depending on time & luck while exping), so the "problem" isn't actually that people "stop" into BGs, and never leave them as someone might think, so the actual "problem" is that this portion of players prefers the BG-kind of action than the 50-Rvr one.
Now, most of people think that "removing"/"limiting" the source of their fun from this portion of players will make them ""automatically"" change their mind on what is fun for them, and start magically do what they always been able to do but didn't since "this change".

This kind of method might work for a even smaller portion of them, but the other part will probably keep "avoiding" it by doing something else, like making a new toon, or go some PvE raid, or in lucky cases join some zerg battlegroup (which wont be there 24/7), but most important not everyone like to zerg all days (or find a counter zerg to actually "have fun" with it), and at last in the drastic cases: completely log out since there is nothing else "for him" to do/play/fun.
Everthing that i just listed above become basically a *new* timesink for them, which will reduce further more their (already small) "rvr activity" resulting in less overall action across all kind if rvr, but more pve activity.

So, you may ask: "Ok, so what?"
Well, with all of that being said, i would strongly suggest to focus the "cure" of this problem not by using the method "one problem drives away another" (Note: Im not sure if it has the same translation from what i mean in my language), which would be removing the "fun" from a portion of playerbase, but i would love to see improvements and encouragements to join the big boy RvR, that will actually attract (time by time) part of those plays who doesnt find a good place for them into 50 rvr, in order to allow them to gradually enter "the 50 rvr circle", and one day maybe become a permanent part of the "50rvr-ecosystem".

How to do this??
Well, you will need some features that will be marked as "custom", but that will not touch at all the gameplay during fights, but will give/add new purposes (and something that they will be able to achieve more frequently than fighting a set group) to those people that we all know will -probably- never beat any set group (rather than by being "forced" to heavly zerg them in orther to get some rps).
One of those things are keep takes, which actually work sometimes, some groups form up for this purpose, but lets face the truth, taking keeps can be fun for a while, but then become boring unless it cater enemies around it, and you might end up with a lot of time banging a door and encounter 0 enemies = 0 fun.

So, we would need some *other* attractive activities for those players that wont/cant do 8v8, like for example: RvR Missions.
I know that already on Uth1.0 there were rvr missions to kill X enemies or X guards, which were a great addition to keep players interested in roaming frontiers, and reward who accomplished more rvr in a row, but this, in my opinion, can be enhanced further more by adding more types of RvR missions which could be tied/opposed to the enemies rvr activities (this way you will have a 100% chance of finding enemies somewhere) such as:

- Caravans Escorts (which will also trigger/enable missions for Kill the Caravan for the other 2 realms)
- Conquest XYZ Keep (which will also trigger Defend XYZ Keep for the realm that owns it)
- Some more automatic small-RvR Events similar to the Leprochaun that gaves gold over time to who could survive around him.

So, my point is: better give them more options to play/have a place in 50 rvr, than *just* limit/remove what they usually do.. hoping for being able to force them to other things they doesnt wanted to to till now, and probably still wont.

Im also sure that someone could come up with some other ideas to achieve this, that can be added to the list i just wrote up here.


EDIT: ---
Once upon a time, i wrote a post that explained how to implement those kind of missions in a more detailed way, if you have doubts about their implementation, you might check my post in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=33295&start=255 (Especially the paragraphs 2.5 and 2.7)

I ´ll try to keep my statement short, nothing will change with the attitude of the players, everyone is gonna play the way he/she it prefers the most because it fits the best for their own.

I don ´t know yet what Uth 2.0 exactly will look like, but with the 1.65 we will lose some activity in the frontiers,- probably not at the start but later some players will lose this competition.

Just to count some of the issues that make a change:

- Greys give realmpoints / title tags
(make them more interesting to be farmed and some players avoid frontiers to pve= less activity)

- Probably missing guard tasks
(Not every players/class wants or finds his way in rvr groups, or the group is not competive for 8vs8 because of customs,bad setup, missing important classes like second healer etc. so what these ppl gonna do? Some of them ain ´t even competive for zerging, useless timewasting make the players quit and avoid frontiers because they don ´t benefit when playing there)

- low battlegates with low maximum realmrank (unknown yet) /old ras
It ´s hard to start over later in big rvr because of very low realmrank, some of the classes like tanks without determination will just be seen in the BG ´s, removing them make many classes complete useless and unseen for any activity.

-No rps while dead
affects mostly random/casual groups , zergs, solo players
(In fact a reduction in overall gained realmpoints, elite groups and ppl who have much time spending in rvr are not affected as much as others,- the realmrank gap between the players will grow much quicker)

At the start there will probably no problems, but problem occur as longer as Uth 2.0 will be up. Like always some players will dominate but compared to Uth 1.0 that will happen much quicker then before. It ´s wrong to blame the players,- yes we are a community and can change some things...but it ´s a reason of game mechanic, ppl should keep motivated for rvr, otherwise they logout or stay in pve zones.
Therefore it ´s in my opinion quite important to get at least guard tasks for example, to get ppl into frontiers for keep fights, keep raiding, keep defence and food for the elitists and some rp gain for classes that are not wanted in 8 vs 8 groups as well etc.

Jerrian pointed out some good points. I'm totally excited for the uthgard relaunch but kind of sad at the same time.
Nowadays my time only let me do a casual playstyle with 2-3 hours a week. And i think theres gonna be a lot of things that will make it hard to have fun in this setting as a casual player.

Still the best daoc time and the setting i prefer but we could need some tweaks like missions and rps while dead.

I am not sure why people instantly think about BGs when considering /xp off.

It would be for me no good reason to not let RvR related xp ignore /xp off.
Sure, this would mean that the BG-crowd would not be very happy, so be it, for them /xp off is a mini /rp off anyway.
What I want /xp off for is to circumvent the xp-penalty system we had on Uth.

Let's say a group of level 19 badly need a shaman, and they find a level 12 one willing to join.
These guys kill mobs that give 80% of cap exp for the level 19 people per kill, and they keep a constant rate.
If we talk about exp in the terms of time, then because of the penalty every hour they play, the shaman will only get maybe 45 min worth of exp. He will in other words fall further and further behind, and not catch up as it should be.

Now let's say he is level 16 instead and within the penalty limit, so he have no penalty.
In a perfect (livelike) world he should slowly catch up, especially since the 19s get 80% of cap per mob.
So per hour of exp time he should get at least 75 min worth of exp. He will with other words slowly catch up until he is the same level as the highest level in the group.

With /xp off, and the knowledge of how the penalty is implemented you can force the highest level in your friendly group to use it until the lowest is above the penalty cap. Sure it is not perfect, but he will at least not get punished as extremely as before.

Code: Select all

When it comes to the BGs; how it was during late Uth 1.0 it was full of [i]BG-elites[/i]. These people were no different than the [i]elites[/i] in the frontier. They were perfectly SC equiped, and ran fully buffed, in perfect group setups. The soloers even ran as buffed as any solo frontier player, and the assassins often had viper2-3.
The funny part is that often these guys did not last long in the frontier, and just went back to the BGs with new toons, since they already had the gear for that made.
So BG was not really as casual as someone pretend it was.

If I had the opportunity I would run [i]visible[/i](it is funny how I have to actually write that:lol:) duos or smallmen groups.
The problem here was the lack of respect for this playstyle, and the inability for people to play even remotely fair.

How this usually ended was something like this:
I ran duo, killed a few other duos, died sometimes.
The other duos did often after first death get more members, and sadly often more than one at a time, but if they got one more member I would continue to try and fight them, unless something very unkillable came out. (Like us running without healer, and they having core healer + two.)
So we got one more member, and managed to kill them, they didn't show up for a while and got back with 4 people.
Sure, we continued, maybe with a 30% win chance, but still could be fun.

Now either one of these happened:
i. They invited a friend, and we logged since it was already hard.
ii. We invited one more person, manage to kill them maybe two times in a row and they come back with 7-8 people.
No chance in hell for us to get the people, or compete.
We log, and they keep running for another hour or two killing nothing but soloers and stealthers.

I really wish smallmen groups was more accepted, but it simply is too easy to fill a group to eight people. :(

(I still remember some fun fights we won as solo healer setup + group skald setup vs reaver, sorc, cleric trio.)

Liss wrote:
What I want /xp off for is to circumvent the xp-penalty system we had on Uth.

Let's say a group of level 19 badly need a shaman, and they find a level 12 one willing to join.
These guys kill mobs that give 80% of cap exp for the level 19 people per kill, and they keep a constant rate.
If we talk about exp in the terms of time, then because of the penalty every hour they play, the shaman will only get maybe 45 min worth of exp. He will in other words fall further and further behind, and not catch up as it should be.

As far as I know this issue should be solved with Uth 2.0 and there won ´t be any penalties anymore, but I ´m not 100% sure about it. I put your considerations as a question to the grab bag.