Austerim wrote:Hibs always first to quit.

When was the last time you made an insightful post anyway?

Blue wrote:Remember that /who does not show anyonmous players.

does /server show anonymous?

Don't care to remember.

Lasastard wrote:

Satiah wrote:Taking keeps serves no goal accept getting df.

This, imho, is a very crucial problem with Uthgard and its population. I am not sure whether keeps ever served a greater purpose on live - apart perhaps from tying into the relic guard strength. But people took it upon themselves to defend them - be it out of realm pride or the sheer fun of fighting the enemy. This sort of attitude is lacking on Uthgard, and again, can't be patched in. And I honestly can't think of a way to change that, other than trying to lower the entry barrier into RvR a bit (i.e. unnecessary time sinks need to go...like RvR sickness not being curable, and ports taking quite long for no obvious game-play related reasons). But in principle, this sort of old-school gameplay is supported, there just isn't the right spark to get it going. If the 20+ hibs that were in Thidranki just now were to move their activities to the frontiers - and the other realms did the same, everyone would have fun I reckon.

Keeps served the same purpose they do here, the big difference is, there wasn't any crossrealming going on so it really was a matter of realm pride that sent you out to defend keeps. I can't imagine Uthgard implementing a 1 realm per account deal without the current population dropping off the face of the Earth, even though i'm pretty sure transferring plat between realms wasn't live like So people need to accept that atleast on Uthgard, keeps are more about visual nostalgia vs practical realm defense until they A. ****** everyone off by allowing only 1 realm per account (enforced somehow) B. Change the layout/ incentive of the OF keeps to make them desirable to take or defend, For these reasons I believe the NF keeps were superior for an Uthgard setting, walls that would collapse added variables to the siege and the rewards were modest, decent RPS and the possibility of opening long distance ports.

Ps. For the record ..EVERYTHING Aust says or thinks is insightful... to him.

Satiah wrote:I think you are overestimating the amount of casuals playing or wanting to play that way. Uthgard attracts a lot of "old" DAoC players that just want to enjoy the game and don't play fulltime. Be it with zerging, 8vs8, solo or even PvE. Thidranki filled that gap perfectly.

Wut ...the point of closing thid is for those casual players to transition to level 50 RvR.

There has been at least 2fg+ of every realm during EU primetime in there and multiple guild group 8 mans even during US primetime. If all those people transition to emain, there would be no problem having a zerg going to sustain all facets of level 50 pvp and a lot more action in general.

The issue is, thid is too close to an 'end game' for a casual player to make them want to play in emain. They feel satisfied once they cap thid, and move onto the next character to repeat the process.

I'll say again, the point of uthgard is to offer a different experience than live. BGs here are NOT a different experience vs live. Level 50 RvR is.

Top wrote:

Satiah wrote:I think you are overestimating the amount of casuals playing or wanting to play that way. Uthgard attracts a lot of "old" DAoC players that just want to enjoy the game and don't play fulltime. Be it with zerging, 8vs8, solo or even PvE. Thidranki filled that gap perfectly.

Wut ...the point of closing thid is for those casual players to transition to level 50 RvR.

There has been at least 2fg+ of every realm during EU primetime in there and multiple guild group 8 mans even during US primetime. If all those people transition to emain, there would be no problem having a zerg going to sustain all facets of level 50 pvp and a lot more action in general.

Don't take the numbers you see in Thidranki as something you can instantly place in the Frontiers. I'm pretty sure the a lot of players are currently only playing there till it's gone. Pushing their characters as far as they can. I'm not sure if the numbers in the Frontier went down since the announcement.

The issue is, thid is too close to an 'end game' for a casual player to make them want to play in emain. They feel satisfied once they cap thid, and move onto the next character to repeat the process.

I'll say again, the point of uthgard is to offer a different experience than live. BGs here are NOT a different experience vs live. Level 50 RvR is.

Well fair enough, good point. But now the distance between Frontier and the casual player just got a whole lot larger. The frontiers where already a negative experiance for these people (hard to get into a (good) group, facing high rr players (fully buffed), no goal), now they have to face it with rr2 characters and PvE from 42/43 to 50 to get there.

Again (the xp nerf some time ago aswell) Uthgard just got a lot harder for the casual player (and remains the same for the established player). Somehow people think that player will just put up with it and go emain.

Not playing here for quite some time, but felt like posting about those new rvr changes. Since all threads are locked ( i guess u are not interested in disccusion) i will post my thoughts here .
New players interested in quality 8v8 rvr, should be encouraged to participate in rvr and not the opposite. Before the changes a new group of players for rvr ( starting at 4l2 after thidranki cap and templated) would have a really hard time to compete with the best groups of the server, but could still manage to get some rps every night and in time improve in rps and skill to establish itself. Now after tha changes the gap is probably too hard to overcome. New ras are just too expensive for someone starting at 3l0 to have the basic necessities to not feed rps in even numbers. And yeah..maybe old ras will come "soon" but keep in mind that 3 years ago old ras were coming "soon".What about templates?Is it possible to cap every stat without using tajendi items and without si implementation? Probably not..at least not for every class. So why remove tajendi before implementing si? Your server is not 1.69 if you are missing the best items that classic 1.69 could offer( Si items). Implement SI then remove tajendi items. And to add insult to injury, now u get severely reduced rps while dead which is on top of all the other newcomer nerfs. How about a staff member try to level a theurgist to 50 and 3L0 , and do some emain runs?Let's see how many rps you get even in a high level group of players, when you are dead 90% of the time( low phys defence , squishy and being the first target ). So what are the other options for quality rvr for new comer? There are none except if someone in his little twisted mind thinks that taking keeps or zerging = quality rvr. So why would anyone whose goal is to have quality rvr play on uthgard?There would be no reason at all. But you showed clearly that you are not interested in making a better server for people who enjoy group rvr, making all sort of changes that make little sense just because " it is not classic". Anyone remember barrel removal? I could go on but this post is already getting long.

I think Pbuck makes good points, but I guess the discussion is not so much about the 8vs8 crowd, but the possible large number of players that are looking for a more casual RvR experience and who currently find that in the BGs and don't even bother with the frontiers. Removing Thid is one step in that direction perhaps, but there isn't a very solid foundation for them to build a casual RvR community in the fontiers yet. First of all, this will take time and dedication, which is exactly what casual players don't normally appreciate, and secondly the player numbers are just too low - espcially now. Had there always been a casual RvR community that could welcome those BG hoppers, sure, but since no such thing exists on Uthgard, I don't see the latest changes being positive in terms of RvR and server population.

At the very least this looks like a pretty bold gamble on the developers part - sink or swim. As mentioned earlier, taking out Thid is generally a good decision, but not without having the rest of the RvR revamp done.

Pbuck wrote:Not playing here for quite some time, but felt like posting about those new rvr changes. Since all threads are locked ( i guess u are not interested in disccusion) i will post my thoughts here .
New players interested in quality 8v8 rvr, should be encouraged to participate in rvr and not the opposite. Before the changes a new group of players for rvr ( starting at 4l2 after thidranki cap and templated) would have a really hard time to compete with the best groups of the server, but could still manage to get some rps every night and in time improve in rps and skill to establish itself. Now after tha changes the gap is probably too hard to overcome. New ras are just too expensive for someone starting at 3l0 to have the basic necessities to not feed rps in even numbers. And yeah..maybe old ras will come "soon" but keep in mind that 3 years ago old ras were coming "soon".What about templates?Is it possible to cap every stat without using tajendi items and without si implementation? Probably not..at least not for every class. So why remove tajendi before implementing si? Your server is not 1.69 if you are missing the best items that classic 1.69 could offer( Si items). Implement SI then remove tajendi items. And to add insult to injury, now u get severely reduced rps while dead which is on top of all the other newcomer nerfs. How about a staff member try to level a theurgist to 50 and 3L0 , and do some emain runs?Let's see how many rps you get even in a high level group of players, when you are dead 90% of the time( low phys defence , squishy and being the first target ). So what are the other options for quality rvr for new comer? There are none except if someone in his little twisted mind thinks that taking keeps or zerging = quality rvr. So why would anyone whose goal is to have quality rvr play on uthgard?There would be no reason at all. But you showed clearly that you are not interested in making a better server for people who enjoy group rvr, making all sort of changes that make little sense just because " it is not classic". Anyone remember barrel removal? I could go on but this post is already getting long.

It's gonna be the same. You can keep task to RR5 in one week, assuming you will encounter other taskers, maybe create zerg fights...even if you lose the battle, you will still get some RPS, for sure.

Raggnar wrote:It's gonna be the same. You can keep task to RR5 in one week, assuming you will encounter other taskers, maybe create zerg fights...even if you lose the battle, you will still get some RPS, for sure.

What are you on about? That's 460.000 rps. The best lwrp is at 260.000 currently. How many keeps and task do you wanne take? Does this require 24 hour play nonstop with atleast 4 people? Who's gonne pay for all those rams?

Maybe create zerg fights. Out of nothing? Also Pbuck is talking about quality 8vs8 rvr, not zerg fights.

Keep task to rr5 in one week. LoL, I'd rather pull my nails out.

Lasastard wrote:At the very least this looks like a pretty bold gamble on the developers part - sink or swim. As mentioned earlier, taking out Thid is generally a good decision, but not without having the rest of the RvR revamp done.

This sums up the entire problem.


And it's reminding of the implementation of Old Frontiers a few years back. They were so eager to implement OF, thinking it would provide some sort of improvement or solution, while in fact what came out was a half-assed implementation of what SHOULD be a solution. It didn't solve anything, rather the opposite. If they would just have taken their time to implement the -now announced- NF style port changes, keep importance improvements and confirmed XP opportunities (yes, testing would have helped), the players who joined this server excited about the IDEA of OF, would have actually STAYED.

But no, only after long posts, discussions and complaints from players with genuine concerns about the well being of RvR and thus of the server (basicly the players who were around before the switch), the slightest changes got through. But they were like patches on a comatose patient. Not really solving anything at all, just trying to lessen the pain.


On the downright negative side on the spectrum however, things are/were moving very fluidly and fast. Anything potentially beneficial to the player that wasn't exactly 1.69 got removed or will get removed. Even though there was no harm whatsoever in these elements, they had to go. The only positive note here is the removal of Tajendi.

What didn't get removed however are keep tasks (COMPLETELY CUSTOM), which, are supposed to be some way of "improving" casual RvR, they are kept in the game because they "work".

Well, guess what, they only "work" because you don't want to take any REAL action to solve the problem. You basicly destroyed the entire casual RvR potential, and then throw some of the UGLIEST ways possible in the entire history of PvP gameplay to lure people out in a setting they still don't enjoy anyway just to get "arpees". This "solution" is a disgrace to the spirit of DAoC RvR and should be the first thing to go, it's something to be ashamed of rather than proud.

There are way more effective, less disrespectful and productive solutions to the problems this server has. For some reason though, things are going the way they are... For all the "we hold classic DAoC in high regard" talk I've encountered here, I haven't actually seen it being honored. It's like saying "I love my dog so much, I feed him chocolate and sugared cereal all the time".




Classic DAoC was ALL ABOUT casual RvR. Classic DAoC was ALL ABOUT servers with 2-3k players. Classic DAoC was ALL ABOUT having the best time ever in an online game. Uthgard is none of these, because it doesn't seem to get through that there IS a way to recreate that, but copy pasting 1.69 is an example of how NOT to get there.

Satiah wrote:

Raggnar wrote:It's gonna be the same. You can keep task to RR5 in one week, assuming you will encounter other taskers, maybe create zerg fights...even if you lose the battle, you will still get some RPS, for sure.

What are you on about? That's 460.000 rps. The best lwrp is at 260.000 currently. How many keeps and task do you wanne take? Does this require 24 hour play nonstop with atleast 4 people? Who's gonne pay for all those rams?

Maybe create zerg fights. Out of nothing? Also Pbuck is talking about quality 8vs8 rvr, not zerg fights.

Keep task to rr5 in one week. LoL, I'd rather pull my nails out.

I've seen it happen. Anyway, from 4L2 to 5L, should have stated that. So for all the qqers, you can easily get from 3L to like 4L5 in one week just by keep taking and fighting there. Let's assume at least 50% of people that are currently populating thid and constantly re-rolling toons go to frontiers, action will pick up. And once they get to like 4l or 4L5 they can get their core abilities(most classes) and do RvR, everything else is just a ****** of excuses. I won't be competitive bla bla bla. There will be other groups of that realm rank out so it's a fair fight, even if they're slightly higher. Most of people that complain how endgame rvr will suck for them with no 4L2 thid don't even have a rr5 toon and are hardly ever seen in the frontiers. Also, you don't need to ZERG. You do /realm or check herald, see which keeps are claimed and go hit them. If you get wiped by more people than you brought or higher rr, bring a few more, make a nice fight. If that's not your cup of tea, fine...you can still do this for 1-2 weeks(would be no different in thid anyway) until you get some core abilities and then switch to 8v8. I really don't see the problem with this. Thidranki is 99% of the time an idiotic zerg fest with no coordination anyway, why on earth would people want to constantly reroll toons there is beyond me.

I like the bg changes. However I would like to see the last one still cap at 4l2. Could the caps of each bg be changed so that they gradually cap at 4l2. Maybe something like this for example:

Abermenai - Levels 15-19 - Highest allowed realmrank: 1L8
Thidranki - Levels 20-24 - Highest allowed realmrank: 2L3
Murdaigean - Levels 25-29 - Highest allowed realmrank: 2L9
Caledonia - Levels 30-35 - Highest allowed realmrank: 3L5
Kaldrheim - Levels 36-42 - Highest allowed realmrank: 4L2

The realm ranks would help people as they try to level to 50 and being 4l2 would help them compete better in rvr.

Since the devs want the players to enter the frontier at 43 the devs could encourage this by giving great exp for killing keep guards and taking keeps. Having a huge exp bonus for killing guards and taking keeps would have no effect on a level 50 but might draw people under 50 out and help them level to 50 while earning some realm points.

Raggnar wrote:I've seen it happen. Anyway, from 4L2 to 5L, should have stated that. So for all the qqers, you can easily get from 3L to like 4L5 in one week just by keep taking and fighting there. Let's assume at least 50% of people that are currently populating thid and constantly re-rolling toons go to frontiers, action will pick up. And once they get to like 4l or 4L5 they can get their core abilities(most classes) and do RvR, everything else is just a ****** of excuses. I won't be competitive bla bla bla. There will be other groups of that realm rank out so it's a fair fight, even if they're slightly higher. Most of people that complain how endgame rvr will suck for them with no 4L2 thid don't even have a rr5 toon and are hardly ever seen in the frontiers. Also, you don't need to ZERG. You do /realm or check herald, see which keeps are claimed and go hit them. If you get wiped by more people than you brought or higher rr, bring a few more, make a nice fight. If that's not your cup of tea, fine...you can still do this for 1-2 weeks(would be no different in thid anyway) until you get some core abilities and then switch to 8v8. I really don't see the problem with this. Thidranki is 99% of the time an idiotic zerg fest with no coordination anyway, why on earth would people want to constantly reroll toons there is beyond me.

You mean they first need to lvl from 42 to 50 and then do the fulltime keeptasking for a week (make that a month or two). Completely forgetting the point that Pbuck made about quality 8vs8 RvR. You asume that taking keeps will generate action. Not only doesn't it serve any goal (except for opening df), why would people defend them? Also it's still 300.000 rps you are talking about doin tasking.

Not only will there be other groups of the "same" realm rank, the high rr groups will be farming these low pugs with a smile on their faces. Then you say bring more. Again ignoring the point about quality 8vs8 RvR. Leave alone that you need another group willing to keep task.

And last but not least. You constantly point at building zergs but, in your last sentence you say:

Thidranki is 99% of the time an idiotic zerg fest with no coordination anyway, why on earth would people want to constantly reroll toons there is beyond me.

An idiotic zerg fest with no coordination.

I give up.

Satiah, get this straight: THE OLD SYSTEM DIDNT WORK!!! This also may not work, but its a change that MAY result in more casual RvR in Emain. You talk about these mythical people who were capping Thid and going out and being a part in Frontier 8 vs 8 fights at 4L2. Those players didn't exist. The ones that did do this before are the same ones who will spend a month doing tasks and zerging to get to mid 4L's to low 5L's and will still succeed. The other players werent coming out at 4L2 and wouldnt come out on 6L toons because Frontier RvR requires some actual work.

You say that they have to grind from 42 to 50, but here's a news flash for you. Tasking = very good xp. So why grind to 50 just to go out and task? Why not combine the 2? Why not get 2fg's together of 42-50 toons. Go out and get a group task. Knock out 2-3 tasks, take a few keeps, then go clear DF. That should gain you 4-5k rp's and maybe even gain you a mini ding or even a full level. If nobody show's up to stop you then do a few more.

The situation listed above is how people went from 4L2-5L0 so why should this be any different for new players going from 2L9-5L0? Sure, it will take them a bit longer, but as Ivann pointed out, if there are more toons of that level doing this then you have what is essentially Thid RvR taking place in Frontier RvR. Will the set 8 man's come out and gank you? Yes, on occasion they will, but why shouldnt they? They deserve to have fun as well. Sure, what Ivann said is true, a player CAN do that in a week time, but not a casual player. It will take a truly casual player a month (give or take a week) to do this, but what is a month on this game? I've spent longer then a month on this game putting together a template. Going from 2L9-5L0 in a month is very easily doable is not asking to much at all from a player, imo.

Say what you want, but Ivann is 100% right in his post. Those that refuse to go out and make the most of this are the same players that were the problem to begin with and are just using this as yet another excuse to avoid Frontier RvR.