Yeah you were correct in your interpretation of what I said. Infs aren't balanced around the assumption they will be grouped with a minstrel just like nightshades aren't balanced around the assumption they would be grouped with a ranger. Now I understand that you minstrels can change a stealth fight significantly because of their CC / utility etc but for guys like me who rarely group with anyone let alone a minstrel its a moot point.

All that I was getting at was that even though was i think roflcopter was saying that even though infs get .3 more spec points it doesnt matter because to get equivalent abilities (like off evade stun) they have to spend 3x more spec points to get it in one line and don't even have access to it at all in the other. As an inf, i would HAPPILY trade the .3 spec point bonus to be able to get a dragonfang equivalent 25 thrust and a 4sec side stun in DW. The reason for that is simple, the way game mechanics work, esepcially on uthgard, is that there is absolutely ZERO reason to spec 50 weapon other then the stun. If you take an R6 NS with 44CS and 35 pierce and an R6 inf with 44CS and 50 thrust they will hit for the exact same amount of damage when using CS styles (Wyrd proved this years ago that all you need is 51 composite weapon spec). Hence the reason the extra .3 spec points is irrelevant. Now for slash infs it allows them to spec 50 DW, 35 weapon 34 crit which is a very solid spec EXCEPT that they have no stun at all (bladeshades/melee rangers still have the side stun). This imbalance in styles is why mythic launched the style review and made all off evade stuns 2nd in a chain and gave all realms a positional stun in their DW/CD/LA line. On uthgard, hib has by far the most utility in its melee spec lines. DW in alb as far as stealthers are concerned is only worthwhile if you spec to 50 just as thrust is only worthwhile if you spec to 50.

Edit: one of the things that obviously makes DAoC interesting is that it is far from balanced. As for your point about 9sec shield slam on scouts yes that can be very brutal especially if you're a low RR. However I have a feeling that for most high RR stealthers they could care less because they have purge3. And tbh, every scout i know would gladly trade their shield for self buffs and the ability to DW.

A few sidenotes:

- Diamonback has medium Attack-Bonus while Dragonfang has high Attack-Bonus. It is not uncommon that it takes 2-3 tries to land DB, so attack-bonus is a real advantage, not just something on the paper.

- The main "bonus" of SBs (which should even out NS magic / infi .3 specbonus) as designed by Mythic is higher hitpoints at same amount of CON. 2h is an "extra"

- Many (mostly higher RR) NS sacrifice their stun just to get the better armor resist tables using blades. For infis it's the other way round, they get better dmg on leather and stun in the same line, i.e. thrust.

Choosing blades doesnt mean you sacrifice a stun because of lag abuse the side stun in CD is essentially an anytime that can be used in every fight.

Also I recall reading the other day in a post by Blue that style bonus (IE to-hit) on styles does not apply in rvr on uthgard.

Lastly, if weaponskill worked on uthgard correctly then speccing 50 weapon for infs would be an advantage because the higher weaponskill would mean they have significantly higher defense penetration. However since WS does not work then there is no difference on uthgard in terms of defense penetration between someone specced 50 weapon and someone specced 35 weapon.

shade wrote:A few sidenotes:

- Diamonback has medium Attack-Bonus while Dragonfang has high Attack-Bonus. It is not uncommon that it takes 2-3 tries to land DB, so attack-bonus is a real advantage, not just something on the paper.

to hit bonus only influences the number of misses, it does nothing towards evade, parry or blocks (or pbt penetration) of your enemy.

Have you ever played a Slam class? Having high to-hit IS a real advantage.

Well, thx for the replies.. How would you spec a melee ranger at rr4? 36 stealth 36 pierce 40pf 40cd 12bow?? I'm celt so blades vs pierce?

Thanks again guys and @isavyr - you make me lol

Mauriac wrote:Also I recall reading the other day in a post by Blue that style bonus (IE to-hit) on styles does not apply in rvr on uthgard.

Ask any slammer. There is a difference.

Mauriac wrote:Lastly, if weaponskill worked on uthgard correctly then speccing 50 weapon for infs would be an advantage because the higher weaponskill would mean they have significantly higher defense penetration. However since WS does not work then there is no difference on uthgard in terms of defense penetration between someone specced 50 weapon and someone specced 35 weapon.

This is nonsense. When using advanced styles (i.e. DW/CS/CD) composite 51 weapon spec maximizes defense penetration on live.
Check this thorough test, performed by the Ranger TL some time ago:

http://vnboards.ign.com/hibernia_stalke ... 877/p1/?58

EDIT: The test even shows that you don't need ANY weaponspec for defense penetration as long as you use advanced styles!
EDIT2: I don't know how it is actually implemented on Uthgard, but apparently it is pretty close to live mechanics. If not, maybe the staff (Blue? ) could take a look at that?

This isn't live this is uthgard. Weaponskill doesn't apply and neither does to-hit did you even read what I wrote?

And just "asking any slammer" doesnt prove anything. If blue said to-hit does not apply then guess what, it doesnt apply since he would know since he writes the code. The streaky evades you see with slam also occur to everyone else including me on my inf and its because as i said before, WEAPONSKILL DOESNT APPLY. There is no defense penetration on uth, it is not livelike.

edit: PS not trying to come across like a dick. but blue mentioned a while back that because they dont have the correct defense pen formulas they have a hard coded miss-rate / evade / block / parry rates which is why to-hit on styles doesnt apply and why weaponskill doesnt apply and is also why certain abilities like mercs DT don't work.

edit2: ill link you post give me a minute

here is one of the more recent ones explaining it.

http://uthgard.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=53&lang=en&jfile=viewtopic.php&f=15&t=23581

Apparently you didn't even read your OWN post.

"Lastly, if weaponskill worked on uthgard correctly then speccing 50 weapon for infs would be an advantage because the higher weaponskill would mean they have significantly higher defense penetration."

<-- No they would not, because even if it "worked well" (i.e. livelike) on Uthgard it would not change defense penetration when using advanced styles. That's what my link to the TL test proves.

But it would make a difference when youre talking about landing styles like dragonfang vs diamondback.

edit: then what you're TL link proves is that the extra .3 spec points that infs have are even less useful because aside from the stun then there is absolutely no reason at all to spec 50 weapon which brings us full circle back to the fact that .3 spec points are more or less useless for an inf because of the way the styles are designed on uth and having to spec 50 weapon for a stun or have no stun at all.

Bartinzo wrote:Well, thx for the replies.. How would you spec a melee ranger at rr4? 36 stealth 36 pierce 40pf 40cd 12bow?? I'm celt so blades vs pierce?

Thanks again guys and @isavyr - you make me lol

This spec sounds solid to me. Increase CD on the way up your RR ladder, at some point 42 path could be worth a try.

pierce/blades is a difficult topic, regardless of your race.

PRO pierce:
- less effects of str/con debuff (that really eats your dmg on blades)
- higher dex affects dmg (especially since you have dex/qui spec buff)
- after-evade stun

PRO blades:
- better dmg type vs. stealther armor (except for minstrel)
- easier to increase primary stat (only STR, for pierce you would have to increase STR and DEX via RAs). However this is not that important since until RR6+ you don't spend many RPs on aug str anyways, there are more important things.
- better growth rates for blade styles. since you are using CD styles mainly this has not that much impact.


So it's mostly a question of taste/playstyle/.... there is no real winner.

@Mauriac Defense penetration is not implemented (yet), but missrate is NOT a fixed number and to-hit affects missrate.

Blue stated some time ago that the fumble rate once was a constant 1% on Uthgard, and he changed it so that when you miss you have a 3% chance to fumble on top of that. So higher to-hit from dragonfang might not influence your defense penetration, but it reduces missrate, and that is implemented. BTW, just like the "bonus" on weapons/armor. This is also implemented, and not having the bonus significantly increases missrate. So missrate-calculation is in place.

vangonaj wrote:Ranger is the best solo class in uthgard.

Minstrel > Ranger at all Realm Ranks

shade wrote:PRO blades:
- better dmg type vs. stealther armor (except for minstrel)

So far with blade spec, you're neutral on all alb armor so minstrel isn't a problem.
The real problem with blade are mid chain which are resistante, thane & skald became quite harder.
Anyway you can easily counter this by using a pierce weapons for PA/BS as openement to cap your 1st hit which can help alot mostly when they use mhb charge.

Artefact wrote:So far with blade spec, you're neutral on all alb armor so minstrel isn't a problem.

I did just a straight pierce/blade comparison here. What you say is true for NS. Rangers probably have a harder time vs. minstrels than NS.

Artefact wrote:Anyway you can easily counter this by using a pierce weapons for PA/BS as openement to cap your 1st hit which can help alot mostly when they use mhb charge.

Again true for NS, not so much help for rangers (which he asked for).