Eclipsed wrote:Lets say you have 1600 HP, 26% melee resists

PD1 ( 2%) ( 1.5% after tier1) = 24 HP
PD2 ( 5%) ( 3.7% after tier1) = 59 HP
PD3 (12%) ( 8.8% after tier1) = 140 HP
PD4 (19%) ( 14% after tier1) = 224 HP
PD5 (28%) ( 21% after tier1) = 336 HP

TH1 ( 25 HP) = 1.5% of 1600
TH2 ( 75 HP) = 4.7% of 1600
TH3 (150 HP) = 9.4% of 1600
TH4 (250 HP) = 15.6% of 1600
TH5 (400 HP) = 25% of 1600

So as you can see, even with 1600 HP , thoughness at rank 2-5 is still higher then PD 2-5, exept thoughness helps out IP and absorbing all dmg types.
.

Your math is off.


Even though PD gives you secondary resists, and that will therefore mean a total bonus to your resists which is modified down by your primary resists (so PD5 adds 21% to your total resist rate) the amount of damage you will take (in melee) with PD5 relative to without it, will be 28% less.

A simple example to understand this.

100 dmg applied to someone with 26% resists is 74 (-26) dmg.

If you have PD5 that will become 47% (26 +21) resists and you will take 53 (-47) dmg.

1- [53/74] = 28% less dmg.




Now that doesn't mean that it makes more sense to go all PD, you still want a balance. But above around 1000 HPs, PD > tough for melee.

Also should be noted that heal pots help players with more PD more than toughness.

Sorry but your math isnt currect. Your assuming the full 28% from PD5 is applyed to the full amount of dmg.

Lets say your hit for 200 dmg and you have 26% resist

200 - 26% resist (tier1) = 148 (-52)

Now lets say you had PD5 , which is 28% tier2

200 - 26% resist (tier1) = 148 (-52) - 28% PD5 = 106 (-94)

Which in this situation 94 dmg was resisted, so that 94 HP out of 200, which equals 47% total resisted, and we know tier 1 was 26% so reduce that from the 47% and we get 21% for tier 2 from PD5, so my calc are currect. Because of that 200 dmg attack, you gained 42 HP that isnt lost from the attack because of PD5 and 42 HP out of 200 = 21%, not 28%.

The only way to get 28% tier 2 from PD5 is to have 0 resist in tier 1.

Eclipsed wrote:Sorry but your math isnt currect. Your assuming the full 28% from PD5 is applyed to the full amount of dmg.

Lets say your hit for 200 dmg and you have 26% resist

200 - 26% resist (tier1) = 148 (-52)

Now lets say you had PD5 , which is 28% tier2

200 - 26% resist (tier1) = 148 (-52) - 28% PD5 = 106 (-94)

Which in this situation 94 dmg was resisted, so that 94 HP out of 200, which equals 47% total resisted, and we know tier 1 was 26% so reduce that from the 47% and we get 21% for tier 2 from PD5, so my calc are currect. Because of that 200 dmg attack, you gained 42 HP that isnt lost from the attack because of PD5 and 42 HP out of 200 = 21%, not 28%.

The only way to get 28% tier 2 from PD5 is to have 0 resist in tier 1.

You need to reread my last post and also understand that 106 is 28% less than 148 [1-106/148=.28]...or 148 * .28 = 41.44 148-41.44=106 So as you can see, in your own example, by having 21% more resists, the player with 26% primary to start will take 28% less damage (148 minus 28% of 148 = 106)


If you are taking 28% less damage, it doesn't matter that your resists were increased by only 21%, you are STILL taking 28% less dmg.


Look, if you had 98% resists, and you got 1% more to your resists, what would happen to your dmg? It would be cut in HALF, not reduced by 1%. This is the same thing, just to a lesser degree. When you already have 26% resists, and you add 21% to that (or 28% secondary resists) your damage WILL GO DOWN BY 28% (1 - 106/148)



So if you take 28% less damage, that's the equivalent to have 28% more HPs, which at 1600 HPs is like having about 450 more.

My examples of like PD5 being 21% , is after you factor in Tier1, so basicly my values are what you add to your tier 1. One way to show you the effects of this vs though 5 = 400 hp is this.

You have 1600 HP, and you fight someone and take 1000 dmg before resists are added in.

1000 dmg - 26% tier 1 = 740 (-260) - PD5 = 533 (-467)

207 dmg resisted was from PD5 ( 207 / 1000 = 20.7% )

This leave you with 1600 HP - 533 = 1067 HP
______________
Now same situation, exept no PD5 and with THough 5

1000 dmg - 26% tier 1 = 740 (-260)

This leave you with 1600 HP + 400 (TH5) = 2000 - 740 = 1260 HP

As you can see, at the end, then one with Though 5 has 193 HP more left over, and the PD5 only absorbed 207 HP of that 1000 dmg, which is 20.7%, not 28%. Thoughness isnt reduced by tier's, but PD is, that is what you had to consider when comparing the two. To actualy get 400 HP to be absorbed by way of resist, you would have to take 1900 dmg before resists to equal 400 HP saved by PD5. That is why i believe Thoughness is the best way to go first. And an assasin can spec thoughness to counter PD5 rangers and also spec VIPER to help also.

Now lets say after you kill that player, a caster comes up and ends up doing 1450 magic dmg to you before resists.

1450 - 26% tier1 = 1073 (-377)

vs PD5 player = 1600 HP - 533 = 1067 HP - 1073 = YOUR DEAD

vs TH5 player = 1600 HP + 400 (TH5) = 2000 - 740 = 1260 HP - 1073 = 187 HP

So in the PD5 situation, the caster would of killed you, while the one with TH5 would of make it out of there with very very little HP, but still alive.

You are not understanding what I am saying at all. And your examples are demonstrating what I am saying, you just aren't looking at the numbers in the propper way, so let's continue your example to its conclusion, and see who dies first from just melee damage since that's what we are discussing (tough versus PD in melee).



Let's say you have 1600 base HPs and before resists you take 3000 in melee dmg.


With toughness 5 you will take 3000 - 780 (3000*.26) = 2220 dmg taken


With PD5 you will take 3000 - 1410 (3000*.47) = 1590 dmg taken


Player with tough5 would have 2,000 HPs, player with PD5 would have 1600 HPs. Player with PD5 lives, player with toughness5 dies.


As it so happens 28% less than 2220 is 1590 as well. Because PD5 reduced the damage you were taking (by increasing your overall resists by 21%) by 28%.



EDIT: Obviously, and as already mentioned, toughness works against magic, and PD does not. But that doesn't change the fact that even though PD5 will increase your resists by a total of 21% (assuming you are at 26% to start), that the 21% increase in resists will end up being a 28% reduction in melee dmg. No matter what your resists are to start, you will end up taking 28% less overall melee dmg when speccing PD5. Your own examples demonstrate this.



EDIT 2:

So I am no mathematician, but I did notice that 2220 is not 448 more HPs than 1590, so PD5 appears to actually give the equivalent of MORE than 448 HPs at 1600 HPs.



After playing around with some math I found this simple equation.


Base HPs / dmg you won't resist = min dmg to kill toon with those HPs


so 1600 / .53 (26% base + PD5) = 3019


Total dmg you can take * % resist from PD = HP equivalent for PD.


3019 * .21 = 634

634 + 1600 = 2234

3019*.26=785

3019 - 785 = 2234



So at 26% resists, having PD5 and 1600 HPs is the equivalent of adding 634 HPs to your toon.

PD5 reduces your physical dmg taken by 28% after and only after tier 1 resists are applyed, then that dmg is reduced by 28% . So an accruate way to say this is that , the dmg you take after resists are reduced by 28%. But a quicker way to fiqure out your resists , without having to consider tier1 resists first is to

PD5 - Tier 1 = PD5 effect on tier1 lvl

28% - 26 = 20.72% + 26% = 46.72% total tier 1

Apply that to any dmg before any resists and it should come out currect.

3000 - 46.72 = 1598.4 (-1401.6) <-- 46.72 % and of that 26% is not from PD, which makes 20.72% of the total dmg resisted from PD, that is what i was pointing out. And 20.72% of 3000 is 621.6 HP, and 26% of 3000 = 780HP. Now 621.6 + 780 = 1401.6, proving that PD5 only gave you 20.72% of your total dmg taken, not 28%, unless your talking about after tier 1 was applyed.

Now in this situation having the PD5 pays off, but it can only pay off if your enemy does 1900 dmg or more, or else Though 5 comes out on top.

1900 dmg - 46.72 = 1012 (-888) 394 HP of that is from PD5
1900 dmg - 26 = 1406 (-494)

In this situation the one with PD5 would need about 1000 HP to survive, and the one with TH5 would need about 1000 + TH5 (400) to survive. This comes out about equal. Anything above 1900 dmg works better for PD5, while anything below 1900 pays off better for Toughness 5.

1500 dmg - 46.72 = 799 (-700.8 ) 311 from PD5
1500 dmg - 26 = 1110 (-390)

In this situation the PD5 one would need 800 HP to survive, while the TH5 one would need 711 HP to survive with his 400 HP bonus.

2500 dmg - 46.72 = 1332 (-1168) 518 from PD5
2500 dmg - 26 = 1850 (-650)

In this situation the PD5 one would need 1333 HP to survive, and the thoughness 5 one would need 1451 HP + TH5 (400) bonus to survive.

So when comparing the two to each other, there is a point at which one becomes better then the other. So you have to consider that, and consider other points about the two.

Eclipsed wrote:PD5 reduces your physical dmg taken by 28% after and only after tier 1 resists are applyed, then that dmg is reduced by 28% .

I know this, which is why I was simply correcting you when you said that you take 21% less damage with PD5 (or rather, that PD5 was the same as having 21% more HPS), you take 28% less damage by having (if you started with 26% resists) 21% better resists. That's because no matter what, your primary (tier 1 as you call them) will always be checked before your PD resists. With PD5 you will always take 28% less damage from melee.



Remember, just because your resists were increased 21% does NOT mean that you will take 21% less damage!


And PD5 adds the equivalent of the amount of resists it is affecting your melee resists by * the min dmg to kill your toon, or at 1600 HPs, over 600HPs, which is WAY higher than tough5.



They are equal at about 1000 base HPs it seems, but above that PD has the advantage.

Geez, yes i know that PD5 increase your tier 2 resist by 28%, but in total it increases your tier1 resist by 21% for comparison reasons. To fiqure out how much HP you save with PD5. Its just dmg taken before resists * .2072 = Total HP resisted from PD5.

well a few posts ago you were saying it added 21% to your base HPs, and I was thinking it added 28% to your base HPs.


I'm glad we worked through that and can both see now that the HP bonus is potential dmg taken * PD effective resists.


Which turns out to be more than I previously thought it was (a lot more actually at 1600HPs). Unless you have 1,000HP or less, PD will offer more benefit than toughness for preventing melee dmg. Which actually makes sense since it doesn't work on magic.

well i do get what you mean by damage taken effecting the effect of PD, actualy when looking at PD effect, you should look at dmg taken. And calc how much dmg taken you can take with your HP and resists and other bonuses, example my Celt Ranger with no RA bonuses or pot/charge con buffing.

1282 / .74 = 1732 total dmg before resist

with PD5

1282 / .53 = 2419 total dmg before resist (687 HP from PD5)

with Thoughness 5

1682 / .74 = 2273 total dmg before resist (541 HP from TH5)

with PD4 and TH3

1432 / .60 = 2386 total dmg before resist (654 HP from Both)

with TH4 and PD3

1532 / .65 = 2357 total dmg before resist (625 HP from both)

So as you can see, having PD4 and TH3 is almost as good as PD5, plus you save 4 RA pts. So i have learned something with are discussion, so i thank you for that.

So back on the topic of those who say Rangers are OP because of PD5. As you can see there is a bonus of it over TH5, but only a little, at the same time you can get Viper, and use a str/con debuff.

Eclipsed wrote:Sorry but your math isnt currect.

Sorry, but your english isn't correct.

Btw guys Eclipsed = Ranger = Big damn wall.

You can't discuss this thing with a playing ranger. In his eyes charges and Potbuffs are Ranger Nerf etc. Also ranger isn't OP.

Nealy all ppl think like this. Except ranger playing ppl and some others...

Anyway enjoy ure wall-discussion

Regards

Chrissi wrote:

Eclipsed wrote:Sorry but your math isnt currect.

Sorry, but your english isn't correct.

Btw guys Eclipsed = Ranger = Big damn wall.

You can't discuss this thing with a playing ranger. In his eyes charges and Potbuffs are Ranger Nerf etc. Also ranger isn't OP.

Nealy all ppl think like this. Except ranger playing ppl and some others...

Anyway enjoy ure wall-discussion

Regards

Agree, on a sidenote, eclisped's ranger is level 50 for about 4 months already, and hes still r4.5 so this means that rangers cant be OP in general

Also, i dont know who is thinking about rangers beeing OP outside of BGs because i know that SBs, Infis and Scouts kill rangers quite easily with usual tactics(Viper3/ Slam).
Also, in 8vs8, killing rangeradds is quite easy... Its like 3-4hit freerps that try to leech rps on you.

What I find funny is when overpoweredness of classes gets measured by their 1on1 performance, when everyone knows from reading these forums, that 1on1 really doesn't exist anymore since OF

Just looking at duos instead, who would win ? OPed melee ranger times 2, or Infiltrator+Minstrel ? Sorc+Cleric ? Reaver+Friar ? Shammy+Skald ? Savage+Healer ? And if you consider mixed hib duos, what is more dangerous, ranger+bard, or champ/valewalker/blademaster/hero+bard ?

Even 1on1, most rangers are not giving me much trouble on my shammy. I bet casters like sorcs, cabbalists, spiritmasters and maybe bonedancers should be able to put up a good fight too. Solo stealthers will undoubtedly have problems with them 1on1. But I think it's probably still a closer fight than solo caster vs solo chargetank.

So rangers might be situationally OPed. But that's true for other classes too. If you take a shammy against a solo pally, friar, armsman or hero for example. Or the already mentioned chargetank vs caster. And valewalker, reaver, champs and skalds can also be pretty nasty in any 1on1. The problem on Uthgard may very well be that those situations where rangers are OPed are coming up too often, instead of rangers being generally overpowered.

I really think a lot of the 'ranger problem' would go away already if we could just get some more varied solo and small group action going. What makes the problem bigger than it is, is the mentality of players, that see RvR as either 8vs8 gankgroups or stealthwars only.

Chrissi wrote:You can't discuss this thing with a playing ranger. In his eyes charges and Potbuffs are Ranger Nerf etc. Also ranger isn't OP.

Nealy all ppl think like this. Except ranger playing ppl and some others...

So its not fair to discuss a class, with those who play that class. Wow. Why not just say your Overpowered, but your not allowed to defend that claim agenst you. Its easy to think someone is over powered when you dont understand that class, you just see its success vs you and think well they got it easy. When in truth, there is alot more behind each class, the challenges and so on. And the stuff about pot and charged buffing has been discussed alrdy and you all had your chance to make your point, get over it lol.

Satz wrote:Agree, on a sidenote, eclisped's ranger is level 50 for about 4 months already, and hes still r4.5 so this means that rangers cant be OP in general

Actualy my ranger is RR4L7, about 4L8. And this is actualy my second ranger. I use to have a Luri ranger, who was lvl 50 RR4L5 or so, but i decided i wanted to be a celt instead, so this is my remade one. And i havent played much recently, thats why my RPLW is very low.

I think one basic Problem with Ranger is, the high Bow-max dmg, even with low archery skill.....
For example my melee-scout has 15-14 longbow and does between 100 and 270dmg, with critshot (2x here) it is between 200-500+++ (unbuffed)
So a ranger on celtic dual/selfbuffs (with d/q selfbuff) hits me between 250-550++++ (high rr even more) and that with low bowspecc.
I dont know how it should be, but i guess Bowmaxdmg shouldnt be so high with such a low specc and those cs=x2base dmg instead of critchance, makes it even worse ^^
Alternative give buffline to Scout ^^ if anyone wants to specc it, he can
and it definitly is damn hard vs a good ranger..... with any other albstealther.... cap scd with scout, i got 4 hittet by one Ranger...
greetz thx, hf