Get some casters ourselves? BD are non-existent [and while I don't feel the pets are that important for pvp, mid groups dont usually pickup casters and leveling without the pets is pretty rough], 2/3 of the spiritmaster specs don't get better than an un-spec'd ranged baseline nuke and they aren't very common either not to mention other than darkness 1v1 they aren't particularly good. So that prettymuch just leaves Runemasters. Mid can't just go 'get' casters, so few of our classes are casters and 2 of 3 are pretty gimp.

I personally think the 'rvr' patch has kind of killed the action lately, there is the occasional relic raid but other than that the rvr zones seem pretty dead compared to what agra was like before the patch.

'If' treb door damage was nerfed, I strongly feel that making it so you cant pbae through doors and giving the primary tanks [arsman, hero, warrior] climb walls ability [not the other abilitiesthey have on live, just climb walls] could give everyone more of a fair chance. However, as it stands if taking out doors with trebs was no longer possible I don't think mid could successfully take a keep even with large numbers vs limited defenders, we would just get farmed, which might seem nice to the hibs but isn't particularly balanced or fair.

KXT wrote:Get some casters ourselves? BD are non-existent [and while I don't feel the pets are that important for pvp, mid groups dont usually pickup casters and leveling without the pets is pretty rough], 2/3 of the spiritmaster specs don't get better than an un-spec'd ranged baseline nuke and they aren't very common either not to mention other than darkness 1v1 they aren't particularly good. So that prettymuch just leaves Runemasters. Mid can't just go 'get' casters, so few of our classes are casters and 2 of 3 are pretty gimp.

Well...not my problem if you dont take casters with you^^

I had to delete quite a few postings here... Please, think before posting and stick to the topic.

KXT wrote:I strongly feel that making it so you cant pbae through doors and giving the primary tanks [arsman, hero, warrior] climb walls ability [not the other abilitiesthey have on live, just climb walls] could give everyone more of a fair chance.

1.80 policy - won't happen.

KXT wrote:However, as it stands if taking out doors with trebs was no longer possible I don't think mid could successfully take a keep even with large numbers vs limited defenders, we would just get farmed, which might seem nice to the hibs but isn't particularly balanced or fair.

Keep defenders should have an advantage.
Casters and stealthers have a natural advantage over melee classes in keep fights.

edit
H-Man

We should focus on the siege issue and let the flaming and shrooming away. The thing is that you can anytime shoot a piece of keep wall instead of shooting doors so imo this topic is senseless.

The thing is that i cant understand why it should be a limit of trebuchets attacking a target, there is no logical explanation for this. Imagine a 3000 people server with way more active rvr players and limited to 5 or whatever trebs per targed.

Just for the record. I didin't complain for or against a realm. I said it was unbalancing to be able to use unlimited amount of ranged seige equipment on a keep when the defenders cannot build inside. You should be able to defend a keep with a 1/3 of the attacking force.

No flame No complaining just the truth. Maybe this will encourage more mids to make casters.

Well the siege limit per keep piece would allow defenders some time to organize players together to mount a proper defense before the keep/tower was breached. If for example there was no limit, then 40 players could operate 40 trebs and take down a wall in one salvo from each. This would make keeps rather pointless. The current situation delays the inevitable so to speak in that even though there are "some" limits to the number of siege weapons on a keep piece, players with trebs can still take out a keep/tower with no risk at all to themselves and bypass all defenders through simply rushing inside after they take the doors down. The question is, what to do about this.

I proposed 3 things in which I believe would make sieges more inviting for defenders and also make it so that attackers must employ more strategies and an extra hurdle than simply taking down the door and rush inside.


To get the topic back on track I will repeat my original suggestions:



1. Make siege weapons such as trebuchets do significantly less damage to keep doors (but keep their damage the same against walls). Perhaps a 90-99% damage reduction against keep doors would be appropriate to offer incentives to attackers to use rams instead.

OR

2. Make keep doors unattackable by trebuchets, catapults, ballista, palintones. This would again make it so that rams would be used for their intended purpose (taking out doors) and thus put the defenders in a position to where they can obtain benefit from being inside the keep.


OR

3. Make inner keep doors unattackable by trebuchets, catapults, ballista, pallintones. This would make it so that rams would be used for their intended purpose (taking out doors) and thus put the defenders in a position to where they can obtain benefit from being inside the keep. This would also give some use to other siege engines while ultimately giving the defenders a chance to make use of the keep since they can still attack players from inside the inner keep with oil etc as the attackers can only use rams against the inner keep door.





I am personally in favor of making inner keep doors unattackable by trebuchets since that would make it so that defenders can still gain benefit from the inner keep structure (since attackers still have to use rams on the inner and are thus vulnerable to attack themselves) and attackers can gain benefit of bypassing keep defenses to a degree by being able to attack the outer door. This would be a comprimise to the current situation in which defenders find themselves in pointless standoffs unless they can go outside and rush the enemy before they take the inner door down with trebs. The current situation on uth is much like the previous situation with defenders being penalized to defend because they couldnt enter keeps/towers while in combat.

Zippity wrote:3. Make inner keep doors unattackable by trebuchets, catapults, ballista, pallintones. This would make it so that rams would be used for their intended purpose (taking out doors) and thus put the defenders in a position to where they can obtain benefit from being inside the keep. This would also give some use to other siege engines while ultimately giving the defenders a chance to make use of the keep since they can still attack players from inside the inner keep with oil etc as the attackers can only use rams against the inner keep door.

/sign

If said changes were made I still think at a minimum doors would also need to be adjusted so you cannot pbae through them, its not like you cant coordinate a drop bomb but being able to pbae through a door safely and wipe everyone on the ram is not intended either.

Its easy for hibs to propose such changes, as its purely beneficial to hibernia. I don't see hib having a hard time taking or holding relics either.

For everyone who says 'maybe mid should roll more casters' have you ever taken a close look at the mid casters? When was the last time you saw a bonedancer on uthgard, I can only think of 1 who is 45+. Leveling a bonedancer without the sub pets is a nightmare, they can't merely pbae or shroom farm to 50 like most of the hib casters, they don't fit in well with leveling groups either. Spiritmasters have awful utility and damage compared to other casters, and little to make up for it. Something else I would like to point out is if the pet gets mezed at any point it stays stuck no matter if it gets hit or demezed until I am out of combat. While I think runemasters are a solid caster they are underperformers compared to other realm's casters in keep sieges. So mid only has 3 total caster options, 1 of which is broken, the 2nd of which is mostly broken.

On the other hand hibernia has enchanters, eldritches, mentalist, animists - all of whom fit perfectly well into its realm's leveling groups, and none of which are broken or absent from rvr.

Correct, pbae through doors and walls should not be allowed as demonstrated by the 1.70 changes when new frontiers was released. GTAE effects do however pass through objects and are not subject to those limitations.

This has nothing to do with Realms. So get off the Hib bashing.

Hibs take mid keeps with trebs too. There is no way to stop anyone from taking a keep if you are a undersized defending group. If you could build Seige machines inside to defend then this would be possible. You could move them into place to properly target other machines or players too. This conversation will help Mids! so relax.

Mids have End regen so stop the he can, I can't talk. The most devastating door splinterer ever.

KXT wrote:If said changes were made I still think at a minimum doors would also need to be adjusted so you cannot pbae through them, its not like you cant coordinate a drop bomb but being able to pbae through a door safely and wipe everyone on the ram is not intended either.

Its easy for hibs to propose such changes, as its purely beneficial to hibernia. I don't see hib having a hard time taking or holding relics either.

For everyone who says 'maybe mid should roll more casters' have you ever taken a close look at the mid casters? When was the last time you saw a bonedancer on uthgard, I can only think of 1 who is 45+. Leveling a bonedancer without the sub pets is a nightmare, they can't merely pbae or shroom farm to 50 like most of the hib casters, they don't fit in well with leveling groups either. Spiritmasters have awful utility and damage compared to other casters, and little to make up for it. Something else I would like to point out is if the pet gets mezed at any point it stays stuck no matter if it gets hit or demezed until I am out of combat. While I think runemasters are a solid caster they are underperformers compared to other realm's casters in keep sieges. So mid only has 3 total caster options, 1 of which is broken, the 2nd of which is mostly broken.

On the other hand hibernia has enchanters, eldritches, mentalist, animists - all of whom fit perfectly well into its realm's leveling groups, and none of which are broken or absent from rvr.

I think you are exagerating the imbalance. I agree Hibernia has an advantage with its casters over Midgard but if we're going to nerf them an adequate nerf for Mid melee would be in order, say Celerity? Mid is more melee orientated, hence 5 tanks classes and Hib more caster orientated, hence 4 good caster classes.

You are forgetting aswell the advantages mid casters have. SM with its awesome intercept/stun pet or BD with a 4sec insta lifetap make good solo classes. And, like u said, a runemaster has a lot to offer in siege fights. So basically, yes I believe you're slightly disadvantaged, but you make up for it in other areas.

And in the end what good are our casters when you're just trebbing down the doors which was still the original issue here. The reason Hib has been pretty dominant in the whole relic history was because of a lack of opposition and not class imbalance.

Zippity wrote:Proposals

If you make the doors harder to take down with trebs, people will just take down walls, the problem isn't the door, it's the siege equipment.
I refer to my earlier post, read it and you'll know what I mean.

I do,however, agree Inner keep gate should be immune to trebs&catas, just because it's ridiculous to hit a door from that far with a treb when there's obstacles in the way, absolutely not realistic.

Also to people complaining about shrooms&bombers:
-Every realm has bombs (And they're nothing a groupheal can fix, or just plant your own bombs against the door >.>)
-Blue said Animist needed a recheck, and it's done when it's done.

Im still wondering how ppl in a RAM can get killed by PBAE from INSIDE a keep. I mean, you dont even hit the driver because he's too far away. lol.

You know why mids are whining? Because they got owned when trying to retake bled. 20 tanks whacking on a tower door with uber celerity, and all dying semi-instantly to a coordinated oil + 3 pbae burst, resulting in them getting rolled by the rest of the hib zerg, logging, and losing both relics.

Guess what, that was your own damn fault for not paying attention to oil, for healers slacking off, for not running away after seeing the first pbae animation, for not scouting who ran into the tower just 30 seconds ago, for not having any of your pbae checking for ppl behind the door and most of all, for not using rams.

Yeah thats right, noone would have died if they were in a ram (no oil damage) and ran away after the first cast (no pbae damage).

You should by now realize that keep combat is not tank-centered, but dominated by casters. If you don't bring enough of your own, it's not our problem. And don't you dare saying a single word about balance when your main debuff caster has BOLTS in that spec line and your main single/ae damage caster gets NEARSIGHT in their secondary line, while additionally having AE STUN in every single group and pbaes with 90% intercept pets.

Theres nothing 'coordinated' about 3 pbae standing next to a door and hitting cast when they hear oil pour. If they 'coordinated' a drop bomb that would be completely different and acceptable. have our pbae check for pbae behind the door? Thats telling a 1k HP caster to stand under oil. Hardly anyone plays RC, why? because for the most part its bad. I'm not saying the hib casters should be nerfed, that was never my intentions. I was merely trying to bright to light to the other realms what we experience during keep sieges.

Having played a spiritmaster on uth I don't feel im exaggerating on their worthlessness. The pet block is nice when it works and when the pet doesn't bug out...but those two happening in unison isn't particularly often. Pet stun from sm is pretty rare as well, and its not an easy solo class to level. The problem with BDs isn't that they are bad so much as its ~difficult to level~ without the subpets and thus you see few to none at all. The 90% SM pet intercept bug was fixed quite a while ago, and RMs get NS in their secondary line, while Eld's get it in their primary line. Ultimately the issue of mid casters vs other realm casters in relation to siege has alot less to do with whats good and alot more to do with whats 'common', or in this case what isn't common.

Casters do and should have an advantage in a keep siege, but its a matter of howmuch of an advantage. As things stand now, if it was no longer possible to treb down doors, I don't think mid would stand a chance at all in keep sieges. Melee damage on doors is laughable so its not like we can beat the door down much faster.

Overall I agree with zippity that siege changes should take place, it just needs to come after pbae/door 1.70 adjustment [if thats ever going to happen] and the animist re-look as per mentioned by blue.

it wouldnt have made any difference if the bombs jumped down or clicked the door before casting. hell, going out would probably have netted even more and faster kills due to higher damage. and that whole scenario was coordinated via TS, even with a silly little countdown from the bard standing at the oil. do you really expect a PUG to be able to pull such a trick off, with such a good timing? no way in hell. there wouldn't even be half as many kills. and as i said, the whole scenario would have been avoided if mid had used rams instead of cele.

just 1 minute before said event, you were on the tower on the backside of the keep, without rams again, and it took you less than 2 minutes with celerity to beat down the door. and you say melee damage on doors is laughable?

anyways, midgard never even attempted to run with casters. you have all the tools, and those tools are even better distributed than on hib side. 45% NS is enough on keep standoffs when you can choose the attack range. having AE damage is way better. light elds don't have ae damage.
bolts are awesome in siege situations, and every serious caster group wants that cold debuff, so there should be no lack of this class/spec, while void is utterly useless.

sm's are probably the easiest class to level right after animists, be it as pbae in groups, focus shield with healers or solo with lifetap, and have a way higher life expectancy and aren't interrupted as much as other casters. bd's are a nightmare with instant lifetap, and are needed in caster groups for the interrupt and TWF.

"what you are experiencing during keep sieges" all depends on you and with what kind of chars and tactics you zerg. do i have to remind you that the midgard zerg on that certain day consisted of 95% tanks and healers, while hibs were 95% CASTERS and healers (and thus lost horribly in open field to cele+sos)?

of course your dudes in the ram will get owned by casters if you dont bring some of your own to interrupt them. you will die to bombs jumping out if you dont pay attention and mez/stun them. so what? is that your excuse to abuse trebs? every realm has the tools to deal with defending casters, but outnumbered defenders can't do ****** against trebs no matter what.