RonELuvv wrote:Please get off this whole "See Hidden" thing you keep bringing up. No, it did not let you see ranged stealthers at clipping distance. It was essentially MoS 3 (minus the movement) for assassins looking for non-assassin stealthers with camo down.

Wrong. Was a ton of testing done by the Scout team leader on Live back in the day including videos where he would drop camo and walk forward toward an assassin who had See Hidden who was helping him test. The scout was visible from any distance.

RonELuvv wrote:Also, please stop your QQ fest about ranged stealthers. I seem to recall a certain infiltrator having no problem killing my MoS 4 hunter the other night. 2 of the times I fought you I had camo up. It was not a "I win" button. Nothing funnier than an assassin with Viper complaining about Camo because god forbid any class be able to kill an assassin. Let me rephrase that, god forbid any class have a CHANCE to kill an assassin.

I said it before and I will say it again. I will give up viper1/2/3 right now if there was no MOS in the game. It IS an "I win" button more for rangers then hunters but yes MOS5 hunters pop me all the time from huge distances. Why do you think I camp MMG? It forces hunters to get close to me if they want to pass. Out in the open they can go right by. Even so at MMG I have been popped from behind by Rangers plenty of times.

You said "natural predators". As of now archers have no predator's at all. Ranger in emain kill assassins then run away and wait for Camo/IP to be back up, go back fire more arrows......go hours without dying.

I see no evidence that detect hidden even does anything on Uthgard.

svperstar wrote:Then why don't Assassins get it? Archers get MOS also.

RonELuvv wrote:You still get a watered down version of it as it is with "Detect Hidden" and its FREE. So to answer your question, the reason Camo is still in is because A) it counters MoS, B) it counters "Detect Hidden", and C) Because its an ability the ranged stealther has had for a VERY long time to be able to scout out areas without being uncovered from ANY form of stealth detection. See Hidden, Detect Hidden, and MoS all count as stealth detection and 2 of those 3 still exist with the current settings.

Austerim wrote:

Detect Hidden/MOS are all invalidated by Camo so saying "Assassins get this/this/this" is meaningless when Archers get Camo and assassins do not. I NEVER see Archers on my Assassin even with Detect Hidden I am pretty sure it does nothing on Uthgard.

The sole exception being when Archers go through one of the milegates.

Archers always have camo up. If they don't they just run away till its back.

SVP, you have some very seriously wrong information.

For starters, See Hidden did not give you clipping distance on Old Frontiers. I played a ranger and my buddy played a NS. He had See Hidden on his NS. With my camo down he could see me at about 350-400 units away. It was like MoS 3 but it did not increase your moving speed while stealthed. That was it. I don't think, I know this. If your team lead buddy was using it and seeing people at clipping distance then he was either spotting a stealther with 0 stealth or he was on a ranged stealther and using true sight.

Secondly, Detect Hidden DOES indeed work on this server. When I had MoS 3 and Sleepwel only had MoS 2 we would see each other at about the same distance when my camo was down. Why? Because of the extra 150 or so units Detect Hidden gives you. It is not as powerful as See Hidden on Old RA's, but you also don't have to spend ANY points to get it.

Now as far as the whole "what is fair" discussion, I have stated a million times before that Old RA's favor assasins because the only ability ranged stealthers get is true sight which lasts 1 minute and is on a 30 minute timer. Once camo is down on Old RA's for a ranged stealthe he is easy meat for an assassin. The flip side happens with New RA's. If the interest was in balancing the 2 classes then they would simply say that MoS helps ALL stealthers detect ALL other stealthers (no more assassin not being able to detect assassin) and they would get rid of detect hidden and give assassins a form of camo as well. Now all stealthers would have the same benefit of camo and MoS.

That listed above is the most "fair" way to handle it, but it will NEVER happen here or on Live. We have camo, you get detect hidden. That is the way it is. Just like ranged stealthers will never get climb wall and we don't get safe fall on this server. Funny how you don't mention these perks your class gets but we don't. Also, you saying ranger has no natural predator is a joke. Friar, Thane, Warrior, and reaver all come to mind as tough class matchups for a ranger. If you went through class by class and matched up to decide good and weak matchups with an assassin vs a ranger the assassin would have barely any weak matchups, except ranged stealthers. Ranged stealthers on the other hand are generally pretty strong against assassins because we can prevent perf, but we are much weaker against most other non stealther classes.

RonELuvv wrote:SVP, you have some very seriously wrong information.
For starters, See Hidden did not give you clipping distance on Old Frontiers. I played a ranger and my buddy played a NS. He had See Hidden on his NS. With my camo down he could see me at about 350-400 units away. It was like MoS 3 but it did not increase your moving speed while stealthed. That was it. I don't think, I know this. If your team lead buddy was using it and seeing people at clipping distance then he was either spotting a stealther with 0 stealth or he was on a ranged stealther and using true sight.

That isn't how I remember it at all but it doesn't matter as there is no way for either of us to prove the other wrong.

RonELuvv wrote:Secondly, Detect Hidden DOES indeed work on this server. When I had MoS 3 and Sleepwel only had MoS 2 we would see each other at about the same distance when my camo was down. Why? Because of the extra 150 or so units Detect Hidden gives you. It is not as powerful as See Hidden on Old RA's, but you also don't have to spend ANY points to get it.

It is rendered useless because since all archers get MOS5 first thing they will see me way before I could see them thanks to camo. I never see archers unless they are on top of me. So it is moot.

RonELuvv wrote:Now as far as the whole "what is fair" discussion, I have stated a million times before that Old RA's favor assasins because the only ability ranged stealthers get is true sight which lasts 1 minute and is on a 30 minute timer. Once camo is down on Old RA's for a ranged stealthe he is easy meat for an assassin. The flip side happens with New RA's. If the interest was in balancing the 2 classes then they would simply say that MoS helps ALL stealthers detect ALL other stealthers (no more assassin not being able to detect assassin) and they would get rid of detect hidden and give assassins a form of camo as well. Now all stealthers would have the same benefit of camo and MoS.

Ive said before I think a fair solution would just be get rid of MOS all together. Nobody can spec it. Then all those points archers put into MOS5 could be put into abilities that would make them better fighters. Have max ip much sooner and a bunch of other things. Archers would never go for this though because then they couldn't pick and choose fights from ridiculous range.

RonELuvv wrote:Also, you saying ranger has no natural predator is a joke. Friar, Thane, Warrior, and reaver all come to mind as tough class matchups for a ranger.

No comparison because an archer can easily avoid these fights. Unlike assassins who constantly have arrows flying at them from max bow range. Archers don't HAVE to fight any of those toons, they choose too.

svperstar wrote:

Austerim wrote:

Detect Hidden/MOS are all invalidated by Camo so saying "Assassins get this/this/this" is meaningless when Archers get Camo and assassins do not. I NEVER see Archers on my Assassin even with Detect Hidden I am pretty sure it does nothing on Uthgard.

The sole exception being when Archers go through one of the milegates.

Archers always have camo up. If they don't they just run away till its back.

I don't understand why only whiners like you complain about their assassins. Skarz destroyed everything when he played SB, even 2-3 rangers at a time(sure, not the best ones, but still). Adrexx got very fast to rr7 and was telling me since rr4 how he loves his SB and didn't know class was so strong. Synders is rr5-6 on his SB(dunno what RR is he on his rerolled one, but I guess 5+ as well) and he was also dominating most fights he was in at AMG. Same goes for Hercules who was amazed how strong the class is. Tuv never ever complained about his infiltrator.

Sure, he got some RR's when PA was bugged, but even after that he owned people(except Skarz, he only won fights against him when he got many lucky evades in a row xD). So what, archers have cammo, big deal. If he fights someone, cammo is down for 10 minutes and he can be easily detected. I've destroyed rr7-8 rangers on my rr4 skald before, when he was solo spec. Sometimes they won, but they had to burn every single RA to win. I still think assassins can win most fights in a row and make maximum RPS with not as many RA's down as ranger or whatever class. Sure, ranger is damn annoying...bow damage is OP, self buffs are really amazing and all that, but it's not like assassins can't earn their RPS. Viper 3 spam is a damn joke, such insane dmg output destroys most classes easily, so whining is not an option.

Like that Thursa guy on mid...every single day: "Nerf rangers, nerf theurgs, nerf this, nerf that...omg douchebag Ghazal camping keep again(after Thursa himself killed 5 people lvl 30-35 in DF 15 mins before that)". Assassins are expensive, you need a good temp, all the charges, patience to carry enough pots etc., but you can stay out there long and get a lot of RPS without burning RA's. Remember, rangers very often use both purge(mostly 2) and IP...that's two crucial abilities down for 15 mins, without all that they are easy prey for many, many classes, while you can still get steady RPS on an assassin even without purge up, especially against rangers/hunters(i guess shield slam classes give u some trouble when purge is down).

Raggnar wrote:I don't understand why only whiners like you complain about their assassins.

I do good on my inf. I just dinged rr6 and my record is killed a 9l4 melee ranger. Melee rangers who actually engage me I have no problem with.

The problem is the bow spec rangers who can pick and choose their fights.

You say Rangers are easily detected with camo down. This is flat out not true. Even with camo down bow rangers with MOS5 see me long before I see them and move away accordingly. They run and hide and wait for camo to be up then come back.

One of my alb guildies has a bow ranger and on my inf which has the absolute best of everything in the game he can kill me with 3-4 arrows. I get to him with 10% health left no chance at all.

I have no complaint about my class at all. Its just MOS that bugs me.

Also you talk about killing people on Skald and such. Totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Not many people spec MoS 5 Svp. Sorry, but they dont. Some do, but if they do then they dont have very much else in the way of RA's, or they are high RR and they are supposed to be putting a hurting on you. I have MoS 4 on both my ranger and hunter and with MoS 4 when I dont have camo and I am moving around an assasins will usually see me around the same time I see him. If I'm not moving and I'm sitting there w/ bow pulled back I can usually get 2 arrows off at most before an assassin gets to me.

I'm sorry, but what you are QQ'ing about is a class specifically spec'd and designed to kill and do dmg to assassins and nothing but assassins. MoS5 does nothing to help them vs visi classes so in a way its a complete waste. So you are basically saying that a player thats spends ALOT of points (34 points) on a RA specifically designed to help kill assassins should have camo taken away simply because they have MoS 5. You realise you could just spec MoS5 yourself. Now anytime they have camo down you will see them in plenty of time to watch them pull their bow back and shoot you. Of course at this point you could just unstealth run and maybe even use a charge to interupt them but that would be too much work for you. I've seen many other assassins pull this move off.

svperstar wrote:

Raggnar wrote:I don't understand why only whiners like you complain about their assassins.

I do good on my inf. I just dinged rr6 and my record is killed a 9l4 melee ranger. Melee rangers who actually engage me I have no problem with.

The problem is the bow spec rangers who can pick and choose their fights.

You say Rangers are easily detected with camo down. This is flat out not true. Even with camo down bow rangers with MOS5 see me long before I see them and move away accordingly. They run and hide and wait for camo to be up then come back.

One of my alb guildies has a bow ranger and on my inf which has the absolute best of everything in the game he can kill me with 3-4 arrows. I get to him with 10% health left no chance at all.

I have no complaint about my class at all. Its just MOS that bugs me.

Also you talk about killing people on Skald and such. Totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Mentioning skald has everything to do with this discussion. You are qq'ing about one specific ability that hurts only your class, so I was trying to point out the rock/scissors/paper aspect of DAOC. Some RA that's useful against assassins may make your choice of other RA's limited against other classes, like skald or what not. Wow, MOS bugs you...no ****** Einstein, everyone is bugged by something and every class has trouble with certain abilities with other classes xD. Really, I don't know how hard is it to face a ranger, make 2 steps and hit him with dd charge when he shoots you. Also, if you are close to amg, you can go out of LOS and try make him chase you or what not.

Also, the fact that one certain spec and ability of rangers gives you problems, still does not mean that class can have a steady flow or RPS and win fights against all classes. Like Zack said earlier, a ranger speced in a very specific way can hurt assassins, but in general assassins don't really have any weak matchups, they are pretty strong against many classes. So at the end of the day, that mos 5 ranger can win some fights against assassins, he can add a fight here or there, but a lot of time he will just wait for his cammo to be up...while you get a steady flow of RPS. Especially when you get to the point where you can afford purge 3 and viper 3.

I hope you understand how pointless it is to complain about one ability and one certain spec of some class, especially when you play a very strong class yourself.

Only 2 or 3 of the MoS 5 rangers give me a huge problem on my SB, and those 2 or 3 are much higher rr than myself. i dont think there are as many as you claim. If their camo is down i have a better chance. Then "chance" shows its other face. If i evade more than usual, then i can win. If i dont, then i will probably lose. Bottom line is they are higher rr. They generally have good or great gear. They have more ra's spent. So if i dont bring my "A" game , i should lose right?

i can see archers much easier with their camo down. I'll try to grab Ron next time i see him in game and fraps a video showing camo on, camo off.

If mos 5 rangers are your nemesis, then try different tactics. Don't camp milegates. Rangers like to camp there . Drop viper and go tough 5. Go higher aug dex for evades, etc. Try different charges on your gear. Save a charge for an interrupt. It's give and take. You'll pay the price vs those melee rangers, but you can't expect to dominate melee and range can you? If that was the case, everyone would roll an assassin.

Buff AF, MHB, S/C + though3/4 and you can use dot charge 4/10 minutes.
Use d/q and haste pots.
With a health pot that should be enough for 80% of the MoS5 ranger.

svperstar wrote:...I do good on my inf. I just dinged rr6 and my record is killed a 9l4 melee ranger. Melee rangers who actually engage me I have no problem with.

The problem is the bow spec rangers who can pick and choose their fights. ...

there are no good melee rangers out atm, no one is still playing (mostly good 1on1 rangers and assassins left)

about full bow, well, i think your problem is Tzaaaaa. Prolly he is the only 1 that can really 3shot you (and he play damn well his sniper ranger)
Saosin too maybe?

but all the others?

any <rr10 full bow mos5 ranger SOLO is just free rp's.

full bow archers (all, scout, rangers and hunters) are just free rp's if u play right and use the right buffs/charges.
alone, they don't kill NOTHING
ofc, they can team up and will be not fun , but u can team up too (with a good am2 minstrel and maybe a decent rr5+ scout)

as already someone wrote:

u need AT LEAST thoug3 (4 is better, and is not a burn of ra's, this will help u against all other enemies too)
run ALWAYS AF 75 buff (this will decrease dmg of critical shot around 20/25%)
run ALWAYS 150mhb

then, after u get crit, be fast on USE 1 HEAL POTION and interrupt second/third arrow with a charge dd (i was using another mhb sometimes instead of range dd)

well, at this point, u will be on melee with 50/60% hp's (maybe more), and, believe me, for kill a sniper ranger/hunter < 10l is by far more than what u need as infiltrator

the real problem of assassins, is the stupid change admins made on barrels/charge timers.
when i have ding r6 on Imeope, i was having lot of fun, and was performing really well, but now, w/out the chance to be full buffed, and use all charges/potions everytime i need, i stopped play it

thoug4 purge3 vip3 ... i'd like try my infiltrator with these ra's ...

9l4 lol (because need mos2 too ^_^)

MoS5 Ranger =! Sniper Ranger I killed all assasins except Tyrin and maybe Cologores Rulez Stealthers w/o any problems. It is an assasin kill spec, not much u can do about it.

svperstar wrote:
You say Rangers are easily detected with camo down. This is flat out not true. Even with camo down bow rangers with MOS5 see me long before I see them and move away accordingly. They run and hide and wait for camo to be up then come back.

Just curious how high your MoS is there Svp? You seen me without camo up at about 400 range the other night at MMG. My biggest question is how 2 times last night when I was SPRINTING away from you at 400-500 units away how you caught me to hit me? The first time I was at AMG, I seen you at around 350-400 units away, I knew I had camo down so I unstealthed and started sprinting and yet you catch me from behind and hit me. Then the exact same thing happened at MMG. So just curious how you suddenly are able to move faster then sprint speed on your infiltrator? So twice last night your MoS + detect hidden was greater then my MoS 4 so please no more QQ's about MoS from you.

Is there a thread that doesn't end with ranger being OP?