Runis wrote:Asi said earlier, plz refer your dmg to other stealthers dmg, a pala or savage has nothing to do with stealther's dmg. We assasins cant do more than 80 dmg on a pd4-5 archer no matter what. So how about that?

Hum, there are no other bow users? It makes no sense to compare it to melee damage, because you cant be rupted. And bow has no procs, bleeding and other poison effects too.

okay we can all agree archery needs some love


now


how to test (if possible) and to correct this error ?


any good (<---- notice that word please) ideas?


by good i don't mean: oh i remember hitting for 1000 on casters and 800 on xx and ect. I mean good testing / good evidence of how its supposed to work or a good idea for a fix like: redoing to new system(which I don't like but might be only possible dmg fix), reinventing the formular, anything good, etc.

1. restore critshot like it was before: no toggle-button
(obviously no data needed, because we would be returning to how it was here on Uth not long ago).

2. to-hit bonus of arrows slightly increased
(crafted arrows on uth have already a bonus, that wasn't there on live-servers ever, hence i assume it can be augmented easily by the devs).

3. let bow be affected by haste pots/buffs/charges

Three presumably simple fixes, that could be introduced to see how it would be like. These measures aren't so drastic, that overall balance would be affected at all. And hopefully there's not too much work involved this way. Honestly i don't see the devs reprogramming the damage formula for archery at it's core(should be hard and time consuming), so the haste-thing might be much better of an option.

Fresa.

If everything is toned down you cant simply test.. what your testing is gimp damage across the board..

Someone of the scripters on the staff has to give us the formula make up of how bow works before we really can dive right into talking about fixing it.. if its possible.. my idea..

Base the damage bonus on base weapon skill so those who spec 50 into bow are rewarded with actual dps rather then nothing at all.. as for those who are hybrid spec will also get a small bonus thats all you really need that seems the only way to truly balance it.. dont want alot of 35+15's running around doing the same damage as someone purely specd into bow.

Right now fully buffed from a druid.. and 48 path I have 1900 ws and 370ish dex... I hit people for 200-250 dmg.. on a critical hit maybe 320..
crit shots in the highs will pump out close to 380 fully buffed.

1. Fixing the Critshot toggle, its not classic or even new system but just a nerf as many archers will say.

2. Reduce the miss, evade, parry, blocking of arrows. Not by an insane amount, but a little. Currently its way to high. Got to remember its an arrow coming at you, not a swing. The bow can be intruppted, unlike melee, and the time window for an archer to fire, when hes on the ground is very limited, so if an arrow doesnt hit because of a miss or defense evade and so on, that really hurts an archer. Currently a class with a shield can block quite alot of arrow, just by facing them, and not even using there ablitiy to engage them. When i run with my friend silverleaf defending a tower. We can both fire at the same shield class and i know he will be engaging one of us, but we both get blocked almost the same amount, which is impossible. Reduce, but not an insane amount, so people dont say that is what i want.

3. Currently procs do not work on bows, like they do on live. That can be a useful little tool for an archer also.

4. Some one was saying that crafted arrows are better, but if that is true on uthgard, it has to change. On live all arrows are the same in quality. Merchant arrows are suppose to be equal , not weaker. If its diff on uthgard that is.

5. For a new forumla, that will be the hard one. The only evidence that i know of is the test log from classic like in 2003, that zip found.

http://web.archive.org/web/200307262029 ... c=51295145

Currenly all i can think of is looking at this log in close details, to see what you can get out of it. One thing is, that is the kinda damage we should be getting on a fully buffed scale class. But you have to look at this log in details and factor in what you see. Like the fallowing.

5.a Bow speed - He is using a 5.5 spd bow, but you can see in the log, he is firing at 3s, which the normal shot time with 250 qui would of been 3.4 spd. So we know he had MoA, which reduces the shot time. But as we all know, anything the reduces the attack speed, also reduces the damage by the same amount. Now zip claims that MoA doesnt reduce the damage on live back then, but i havent been able to find any proof of that. Of what ive seen in the past, everything that reduces attack speed, reduces the damage equaly. So you have to factor that in, unless zip can find proof that MoA doesnt reduce damage equaly to haste %.

5.b Effective Dps - In this log, he is using a 99% qual bow, but his effective dps is only 16.0, which means the con on the bow has to be also 99% , because a 100% con bow should be 16.2 effective dps on someone below rank 5.

5.c Arrow Type - You also have to factor in, that he used the lightest arrow to do less damage, so he could get more hits in. So his shots where -15% damage, the max arrow type is +25%. So if your looking at the damages in that log, you have to raise it, to see what someone would get vs a scale armor type.

5.d Target - Also remember, this is a druid in scale armor, and they say he is fully buffed, which could also mean he has spec AF on. And since its scale armor, it is 27% absorbion and alot of armor, but you know the forumlas for that.

5.e Resists - Remember to factor in, the target did have some resist to pierc arrows, but since he used pierc arrows, there was no bonus vs the resists.

5.f spec - Make sure you see what spec the ranger has, and his stats. And remember, dex lowers the varience in damage, but the spec determinds the max damage. Even with lower dex, you should still be able to hit that max vs this target.

So after factoring that in and anything else you see, that should be the kinda damage we would get vs a scale class with that spec. I know that isnt much to go by, but we dont have many live tests from classic live, FROM an archer class. This is the only thing i can suggest right now.

Eclipse, 5a.:

MoA=Master of archery functioned like that: same dmg, but drawing time reduced by the ammount, that the ra provided.

I have played back then. And i am 100% sure about that.

Eclipse, 4:
I can show you ingame the difference between the highest crafted arrows and the ones from the shop. Either i must be badly mistaken or it is like i said, that the crafted ones have more bonus to-hit (but still miss a ton).

Fresa.

can someone find info on mastery of arms to show proof that it increased attack speed, but didnt effect damage ? All i could find about it, was something about it using strength or something lol. But if it didnt reduce damage, thats only 10% anyway. or less.

And the thing with arrows, what i was saying is that on live, the merchant arrows are the same as the crafted. And I think the + to hit , comes from the accurcy bonus on arrows. Im not sure if the values are currect , but the miss rate here is too high, like i stated above.

First of: on live arrows always were the same craftedt or not.

Second: it is mastery of archery and not mastery of arms, which also existed..

1. As i said lol, i said they are the same on live, as they should be on uthgard.

2. Mastery of arms, or archery, its the same thing, but one is melee and the other is ranged.

Archery classes don't need any up.. all bow speced stealthers got mos 4 or 5 , they just have to do like Zippity for free rps => volley is 1700 damage in less than 3s .

You just have to find your skill with a bowman

Please Noir don't exaggerate. 1700 is a bit too optimistic and i asked zippity about that.
The ranger with 50 bow, which is needed to make fully use of volley, is an easy kill after his attack. So if he can't kill reliably with his volley-attack, his death is the sure consequence and contrary to viper3-users you won't get any rps then, because there's no massive after-death-dmg like with viper.

Furthermore misses and critshot-toggle-button and miserable standard archery still remain issues to be adressed.

Fresa.

Fresa wrote:Please Noir don't exaggerate. 1700 is a bit too optimistic and i asked zippity about that.
The ranger with 50 bow, which is needed to make fully use of volley, is an easy kill after his attack. So if he can't kill reliably with his volley-attack, his death is the sure consequence and contrary to viper3-users you won't get any rps then, because there's no massive after-death-dmg like with viper.

Furthermore misses and critshot-toggle-button and miserable standard archery still remain issues to be adressed.

Fresa.

He dont exaggerate with voley you kill one stealther in 3-4 seconds. Happened with me too.

Volley = no stealth and a 3 second timer before shooting.

so go stand in front of the AMG and drop stealth for 3 seconds and tell me if you get the shot off or not. Its also very buggy. Sometimes it will not go off at all and you are standing there.

That could be a nice thing though if you could stay stealthed till volley went off but I never had Volley on live so I do not know if this was the case.

Volley is pretty nice though.

Also remember, you have to spec 35 bow for 3 arrow volley, 40 for 4 arrow volley, 45 for 5 arrow volley and 50 for 6 arrow volley. It takes 3 sec to draw it and each release is 1 sec. So 6 arrows is 6 sec. And you fire at a GT, so you need to move it, if he runs out of range. There more to it , then just selecteding a target and keep hitting it. And dont forget the misses and hitting dead bodys. If you dont want to die, run in twos. Then your most likely not going to get killed by it.

Yes it is very strong, but only if you spec 50 bow for 6 arrows, but then you will have no melee, and if you screw up in anyway, you will die. You can spec lower like i did for volley 2 for 4 arrows, but then your bow damage is even worse. Its still nice, but a ranger shouldnt have to depend on that ability to get his solos. I dont think that was the reason for volley origenaly.

Btw Volley here on Uth, as it is, never had been that way on live-servers.
Best example of the fact, that Uthgard has long chosen it's own path in daoc and archery and indeed is a custom server.
And the finest, that there is!