siegemaster wrote:apart from the discussion about player skill, most people will agree, that fighting in bgs is great fun. how comes agramon isnt most of the time, and people prefer to start new chars at 50 rather than playing there ?

Because you have:

1.) High RR people, a vast majority of them high RR due to RP farming (preset 8v8 fights in so called perfect setup groups).
2.) Low RR/random people who generally get plowed down by the said people from 1.) due to high RR being too much of an advantage most of the time even if the players themselves (some) are suprisingly bad.
3.) The said from 2.) get bored from dying 98% of the time RvRing and roll new chars, or quit.

Psiho wrote:2.) Low RR/random people who generally get plowed down by the said people from 1.) due to high RR being too much of an advantage most of the time even if the players themselves (some) are suprisingly bad.

Made my evening. (Edit: which is actually true *laugh*)

Anyway as you surely heard lots of times: Its not all about RR, but Skill (which includes also TEAMPLAY!), Equipment, Communication, as well as knowledge of your enemy. There are enough - or better: i saw - enough new ppl who really did a good job in RvR even with low RR. (Why they did better than others? Dont ask me, but its prooved that also lows can win)

The other thing: For sure you also need a decent Setup to run, but as you said 'random people' - which is for me something like Wizard ManaMenta or Hunter in group - wont win against those 'perfect groups' . But can you tell me why they dont get their own 'perfect setup' ?

Chemical_Brother wrote:
Made my evening. (Edit: which is actually true *laugh*)

Anyway as you surely heard lots of times: Its not all about RR, but Skill (which includes also TEAMPLAY!), Equipment, Communication, as well as knowledge of your enemy. There are enough - or better: i saw - enough new ppl who really did a good job in RvR even with low RR. (Why they did better than others? Dont ask me, but its prooved that also lows can win)

The other thing: For sure you also need a decent Setup to run, but as you said 'random people' - which is for me something like Wizard ManaMenta or Hunter in group - wont win against those 'perfect groups' . But can you tell me why they dont get their own 'perfect setup' ?

Unfortunately it isnt just about building a 'perfect group' although having greater organization certainly helps. I've laid out some of my observations of the issues (perhaps others may agree / disagree with them). You can review those by reading the following threads:



http://uthgard-server.net/modules.php?n ... 8&start=45

http://www.uthgard-server.net/modules.p ... c&start=30


The core problem is that the uthgard level 50 rvr population isnt really growing, and as the veteran (high rr) players eventually leave, there isnt going to really be anyone coming in to replace them. The original poster brought up his/her vantage point that the dynamics of keep sieging in agramon is at least in part responsible with the staleness of the rvr scene there. I agree but I also understand that there are far more additional factors involved with the rvr on uthgard as a whole that are all interconnected to produce the situation we have now. What we have now is a scene that is solely for the benefit of veteran players rather than offering incentives for new players , lower RR and less organized players to continue playing and participate in the designated level 50 rvr zones.

you are right, zippity. agramon isnt realy appealing to the casual or low RR players. but you cant change people. everyone will always try to be in that perfect group and win, thats normal and sane
however, you can adjust the game mechanics to direct the evolution to a cetrain grade (which means a funzone for more people).
this doesnt mean, the "noobness" will come on stage in the lvl50 bg. just look at thid, where people are already pretty versed in their chars. there is also good rvr going on there (often ).
just compare the standard procedure in agra and thid:
agra: noone is willing to spend up to hours in the camp waiting for a potentialy group. so people start to roam by themself/in duos/... for some minutes (maybe they even reach an enemy mg after ages), until they get overrolled by a fg. they quit or log in other chars. (its pointless, alb mid hib zerg at hmg amg mmg !!1!)
thid: people dont find a group and start to roam. they get overrolled by a fg. they make it to the ck somehow, where there is almost permanent siege or inc going on. people get invited in groups or start soloing. people stay on and fight in rvr....
not to mention that open rvr group, which is crossing ck frequently
im dreaming of an rvr zone like thid for lvl50. i know, its not a solution for everything, but im convinced a real ck would solve many of the problems from the current lvl50 rvr.
if agramon doesnt fit the needs of a bg and an adjustment isnt possible due to technical issues, maybe it should be replaced by a zone which has proven itself a good bg.

the way you compared thid with agra makes me totally agree with you...and brings up an idea. Why not just test it?

Why not make thid available for lvl 50 too for a short period of time and see how it develops? maybe the size of agramon really matters in that case and bg rvr is much more frequent and varied.

Maybe its just me. I just hate the fact, that the vast majority of the RVR time is spent on preparing for a fight and looking for opponents. After one minute or maybe two of fighting its over.

Best case: another 20 minutes of looking for enemies.
Worst case: spend another half an hour buffing, replacing the frustrated leavers, plus at least 20 minutes looking for enemies.

Then: another 2 minutes action. Yay!

Just my 2 cents.

It will bring zerg vs zerg only -.-

I still don't think a map change by itself will resolve much. Although I admit that the one of the few things i like about agramon map is the bottleneck feature it has with the milegates and the central pathing through to the central keep area. Those were definite improvements over the old emain rvr. The BG map style may indeed be the way to go for quicker and more focused action, although unfortunately those lack 'real' bottlenecks like milegates.

i just think, that thid is to smal. And than there will be no bg for the not 50... iam just an enemy of incessantly changing the zones just because its not working with the players... but whats with molvik? ck & 3 towers enough space and although bg feeling... iam just a fan of big rvr but thing that molvik would be best decision

speaking of bottlenecks as interesting rvr spots, i prefer bridges over mgs anytime.
not only the water or canyon below makes another great strategic feature (neirid, safe fall, ...), it also lifts the rvr in third dimension compared to the boring flat 2D-rvr in agramon
i agree, thid might be to small for lvl50, but despite the size its the best example for a rvr zone with some strategic depth.

Why not make thid available for lvl 50 too for a short period of time and see how it develops? maybe the size of agramon really matters in that case and bg rvr is much more frequent and varied.

=> You mean for all level 50 players? I think that's a bad idea if you mean that ppl from lvl 44- 50 should do RvR in that zone!

For players with 7LX,8LX,9LX,10LX it would be like running around with lvl 50 in Braemar... that's what I would call RP farming.

But in fact I cannot stand the discussion about High-RR's farming Low-RR's.

1.) You can start at Agramon with 4L2 - you are able to spec the most important things.
2.) Every gimp is getting High-RR (You could take me as the best example!)
3.) As I said its just about having help & a community/friends that supports you will get you growing in RR.

As I started it was a lot harder to make RP's fast, but still it was not impossible. Mixed up groups of Higher & Lower RR's will still be successful. Every class is able to get some basic RA's with 4L2...

Just to compare: I started with 2L8 in Emain - Steinbeisser was the highest Char on the Server with 8L2, and ppl like Thraxx have been maybe 7L8 or so like I am now - and we did also run against MB -seldom successful, and more often not and most times with 9 instead of 8 ppl - but 1 or 2 adders are not bad if you are much lower. Both groups still have a chance to win.

(I don't mean lets all zerg but having 1or 2 adders may change the chance of success to 50/50 for both groups = which is a fair fight in my opinion)

I think people need to be more patient, its possible to get RR6 in 1 or 2 month (or maybe even faster - just look at the LWRP) after joining lvl 50 RvR - and RR6 is not low in my opinion!

From what i have noticed the main difference in bgs and agra is this:

1) People will form up groups in bgs with just about any class they can get and go out, its great if u have cc/heals but there are plenty of groups w/o them. Where as in agra groups dont run around w/o great setups because w/o a good setup u have no chance vs the premade 8 man groups.

2) In bgs nobody seems to be worried about "feeding rps" people go out and die over and over as long as they get a kill or 2 in the process because its FUN.

3) Nobody seems worried about "adding" in the bgs, some people solo some do small groups some fgs, fight w/e u come across. Nobody gets upset if u join a fight already in progress.

Some of the ways i think this could be fixed. First of all let the 8v8 groups have area to fight w/o adds. I know gms have said they think this will take away from main rvr zone. I think it will add to it cause more people will come out and play when they dont have to worry about being rolled by the premade high rr 8 man group thats using teamspeak/ventrillo. Add a bg for only lvl 50s with a good ck, towers wouldnt hurt any either. This would give lvl 50s a bg type environment, 8v8 would have a place to go do their fair fights. Maybe when those 8 man groups dont have their groups rdy to go they will mix with other players of their realm in the bg. If the 8 man groups want to go in bg let them but they should expect to be added on /zerged etc.

My suggestion would be to make agra the 8v8 area but disable the ck/towers for DF. Add in a lvl 50 bg with ck. Possibly with towers, and make all of the bg keeps/towers count for DF. I feel this is a good idea because mostly the lower lvl players want df, 50s only want it now and then for raids. With this set up the lower lvls in bgs have an impact on whether their realm has Df.

I think this is a good solution or something close to this because it lets the 8v8 players have a spot to do their fair fights, but it also gives all of the other lvl 50s a place to do good ole RvR. Once again if the 8 mans want to join the bgs fine, but no complaining about adds/zergs etc. I think with the 8 mans having a seperate zone lots of players will play their lvl 50s in the bg instead of making new chars to run through braemar-thid.

I just woke up so probably lots of grammar/spelling mistakes. Lets hear what others think, (puts on flame retardant suit)

I like the idea but it was suggested many times and the staff did not like it

No keeps , no towers (=> maybe King of the Hill )

No Grp bonus rps , but relation to size bonus rp

and everything would be woderful

The idea is truly interesting. But you cant force those grps into this bg, there will always be grps wich decide to run aggra. And if one runs there, others will follow. I dont think it will take the perfect-grp-problem away from aggra.