About some players's RvR behaviour.
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THIS is the core of the problem. There is no incentive at all to keep fighting against a superior enemy, no matter if the cause is numbers, realmranks, or just better group composition. As long as enemies will log as soon as they start losing too much, everyone will go on with their MEMEME! attitude, be it those that want realmmates to go away because there's not enough enemies for everyone, or those that rush after every single chance for RPs, no matter the concequences, before they are gone. There needs to be incentive for players to keep fighting even if it's clear that they'll lose. Players need to be encouraged to log off only when there is no fight to be found anymore, not already when there's just no fight they can win. So I think there needs to be some kind of reward for losing fights. It may sound counterintuitive at first, rewarding the loser. But then a group that keeps comming back even though they know they can't win is definitly doing a greater service to the server than all those groups that just add on the winning side. How could such a reward look ? RPs for dieing ? This would probably still need a lot of thought to get it right and well balanced. But it's the only way to solve the problem that I can see. Because relying on players to be reasonable and sacrifice some of their own interests for the greater good ? Oh come on, stay realistic please  |
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Kurat kinda totaly logical ^^ we need more people not calling adders, adders or they will flame cuz they whine bout bein called adders without being called that.
got it? |
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Ok I already explained it to people who whine about being flamed and called adders in another thread.
here we go again, I call this ADDING 101: YOU ARE THE ONE ADDING AND RUINING THEIR "FAIR" FIGHTS, IF YOU IGNORE THE FLAMING RETARDS WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO COMMUNICATE UNLESS THEY ARE INSULTING PEOPLE THEY CAN'T TOUCH YOU. YOU WIN. GET IT? GOT IT. GOOD. Keep in mind tho, that people will think of you as spineless whimp who has no STRENGTH, HONOR AND VALOR BECAUSE YOU ADD!!!!!1 The world will look up and shout "Save us!"...and I'll whisper "NO U."
<img src="http://metty.the-bart.org/other/daoc/sig.php?name=Zaraki&s=4"> <img src="http://metty.the-bart.org/other/daoc/sig.php?name=Chopchop&s=4"> |
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Just to give you an impression of what I'm talking about, here some quotes of the broadcast chat (all three realms are affected). Those are only the one I have noticed. I'm sure this is only the tip of the iceberg and these quotes aren't older than one week.
To all those players who recognize the messages of theirselves: Are you serious? What is this? ... |
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I bet if staff decide to remove rp-leeching for adding none will care about adds.
Most of those people looking for "fair fights" like to chain-killing smaller groups/solos |
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You didn't get the thingy with the "challenging/interessting" fight, did you? The main goal are not RPs but fun and fun is, seen from our POV, not next-target-lag-anytimer-spamming but a tough fight. Check the Herald - the ratio of "zerg"- to "8vs8"-players in the Top 50 is at least equal. |
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That's off the topic. We're not discussing the advantages of solo/8on8/zerg gameplay here, but talking about the results of some players's behaviour. |
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The people who you are talking about very offending mostly don't care about RPs. They want fair fights that challenge you as Ozerdin mentioned. If you play a game you want to have a challenge not just clicking everything and know that you will win after that.
In the end the adding stops the enemy inc. And please don't illuminate this question always one the one side, that those who are added on always make insults in the broadcast, I can also remember broadcasts from adders who sended "Haha I leached 2 k RPs of your fight" I really dislike this black and white painting of those groups. Stop this and stop your indirect insults in the forum or this post is missleading it's aim converting a good thought into a bad speech. Duke |
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Audiatur et altera pars. I illuminated the other POV and that's not off the topic. You cannot solve symptoms, you can only restrain them. Or you could get the problem by its roots and finally solve it. Trying to solve this issue by favouring ONE specific POV is like trying to solve the worldwide CO2-problem without global policies, every country for itself - it will lead to nothing. |
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I just want to start off by saying that it is comforting to see that these issues are being noticed by the staff and that someone was willing to come out and open an official discussion thread on the matter. I would also like to state that the staff are in their rights to create and dictate whatever policies they deem fit.
With those things said, I would like to interject some of my own opinions into this discussion, in particular in regard to censorship. Over the past few weeks the issue of censorship has been discussed on my development team for another emualation project and we have had the pleasure of coming to a consensus about how to manage our forum community. The general feeling amongst my fellow team members and myself is that censorship is to be avoided at all costs and that with a very few exceptions (exceptions being in cases of the usage of racist, sexist, homophopbic etc remarks) that we would try to have a hands off approach to how people conduct themselves on our forum. The conclusion was that we didn't feel that it was our place to dictate whom individuals should like or dislike nor do we feel that it was our place to intervene in matters of disagreement or arguments between individuals (or groups of individuals). We did however set down some basic ground rules to designate areas in which folks could go at it (so to speak) so that they would not disrupt the normal operations of our project or the community. Now why did I bring up what some other individuals are doing on their forums? Well the reason is this. I also frequent uthgard irc and forums, and I have observed the behavior of individuals in game, including staff responses to these incidents. I do not approve of a lot of the behavior that a number of players seem to enjoy conducting themselves in, however I do not feel it is my place (nor should it be the place of others) to dictate that people should like one another or get along. I think that individuals should be civil in their actions towards other people even when they disagree, but I am quite aware that not all people share this view or even care about things such as civility. Fortunately, being a game, daoc offers some useful things that a forum medium cannot. For these instances in which I feel outright disgust towards other individuals, I can opt to use in-game features such as "ignore lists." Using these tools and slight changes in my behavior such as simply avoid grouping or interaction, I significantly reduce the effects of these undesirable individuals in my game playing experience. As far as I am concerned, once an individual is on my ignore list, then this simply makes whatever they have to say a non issue. I see this as "problem solved" as far as my issues with a particular individual. It is my opinion that the uth staff tends to get mired and too often involved into the nitpick petty squabblings of individuals and groups of people here and unfortunately, this makes them become a factor in this themselves by taking sides. In my view, this just encourages and reinforces modes of behavior to take cheap shots at people through various means and provoke petty responses/actions as means of getting someone 'punished' by the staff. I feel it is also inappropriate that the staff is involving itself or being made involved specifically in private matters such as comments made via private messages. It is my opinion that the staff needs to untangle itself from these types of incidents and leave them to the devices of the players to resolve amongst themselves. If individuals dislike one another to the extent that they cannot remain civil in discussion, then they can simply opt to add one another to their ignore list. While I sympathize with bystanders like myself being in the mix of all this and witnessing these silly squabbles due to no fault of our own; we also have the same ability that others have to put individuals on the ignore list and as such we should use good judgement as well when it should be suitable to use this power. The ignore list in my opinion, should resolve the issues of unwanted pm's, broadcast chatter and so on. I do not however feel that tolerance should be given towards individuals that indulge in behavior that is entirely obscene and abhorrent such as engaging in racial slurring, sexism, and many other things that I believe most people can agree on as being intolerable under any circumstance. In these cases, I do feel staff involvement is appropriate and absolutely critical. Now, in the spirit of conflict resolution,ill get on with my proposals. I think the staff and bystanders will ultimately be both better off if the staff could minimize its involvement in these matters. I would think that as a logistical issue, time could be better spent in other areas aside from coddling temper tantrums between individuals who don't get their way at something. Now getting on to another matter at hand. I think that some of these issues can be resolved by partly through focusing on getting new fresh faces out there in the community so that the same old players with longstanding grievances against one another arent continuely pitted against one another all the time. I think uthgards biggest priorities should be on attracting new blood to the server to add some diversity to encounters. For example some of these initiatives could involve completing the remaining missing features (missing classes for example) and use other innovations (temporarly easier level progression) to attract and keep new people to the server. In my opinion this would give everyone involved something else to focus their attentions on. Some other proposals: Someone brought up an idea for adding incentives for people to remain in the rvr zones and not log out when they are defeated. I think this is a great idea! 1. Perhaps something like an incrimental bonus or penalty added for Realm points based on how many players of your realm are in the zone in proportion to the enemy players could be added in. The objective here is that the more folks of a particular realm that are logged in vs the other side, then the less realm points they get. This can be further expanded so that the realms with smaller populations in the zone get an RP bonus. All of these bonuses would be tied to how long the players remain logged into their respective realm. The bonuses/penalties could be weighted based on how many players are in each respective realm at a given time so that they are dynamic. The timer could be set to check all player's penalty/bonus amounts each hour or some interval to account for the current ratio of players. At each check, the players in the realm are notified that their realm has penalties/bonuses in place. Players will also be notified when their realm's penalties/bonuses end. When a penalty/bonus check shows that the realm's status has changed, all respective timers on all current players in that realm are overwritten and restarted based on the status change. So if a realm is no longer under a penalty, then all players of that realm who are currently in the zone will have their current penalty timers removed until the next check occurs. Players that arent in the zone (such as those that log out / disconnect) will keep their penalty when they next logged in and it will stay in effect until it wears off. For the sake of argument, I suppose the realm status checks could also include whether or not a player has participated in an rvr kill (gained rps) during their period of time out in the zone. This could be the determining factor as to whether a character is a 'leveler' or not and would subsequently remove them from the rp penalties/bonuses for that particular realm check cycle. If a cycle occurs, and hte player has gotten some realm points (or attacked other players) during that time, then they are flagged as rvr participants and are weighted into the overall bonus/penalty. Since these checks are made in cycles, other people participating in rvr are not permenantly penalized in the "rare" cases where some individuals participate in rvr and then decide to level. Here are some examples of how this could work: Example 1. Player Bob (who is a member of midgard) zones into the rvr zone. At this time, midgard has 100 players in the zone, albion has 25, and hibernia has 50. As soon as Bob zones in, bob is immediately flagged to have a reduced amount of RP (50% reduction in this case) gain due to his realm's numerical superiority in the zone. Additionally a timer is set for him. This timer will determine how long Bob will remain under the penalty. The timer is specific for Bob, only being based on when he decided to zone in. Bob is notified that he has a penalty timer of 1 hour upon zoning in and chooses to continue playing anyway. Midgards population doesnt change however Bob continues playing for an hour. His penalty timer wears off before the realm status check occurs and he begins gaining normal realm point bonuses again. Example 2. Player bob once again logs into the rvr zone. His realm still has 100 players, albion has 25 and hibernia has 50. Bob logs in just as the last realm status timer check went off. Bob once again receives his 1 hour penalty timer, but a miracle happens as soon as he logs in. Half of the midgard players log off and 25 of them log over into albion, making each realm now have 50 players. Since the realm status update timer checks every 25 minutes, bob continues to play for 25 minutes under the RP penalty, however as soon as the realm status check comes around, he now finds himself earning normal RP bonuses since he stuck it out and remained logged in. Example 3. Player bob decides to log in to rvr. His realm (not surprisingly) has 100 players as opposed to the other realms familiar numbers of 25 and 50 respectively. Bob logs in, gets his 1 hour penalty and decides to not wait for the rvr population to balance itself and decides its a good day to make a hib character and he logs off immediately (with 50 minutes remaining on timer). Bob comes back the next day to rvr and finds that he has a 50 minute penalty timer. Midgard's population becomes even with the rest and no longer offers penalties to players in the zone. 10 minutes later the server update check occurs and bob still has 40 minutes left. Because bob logged out/disconnected, he has to wait the full 40 minutes even if the the other players in the zone are no longer receiving a penalty. However bob sticks it out and 40 minutes later he is no longer receives a penalty and begins gaining the bonuses for his realm. After the day was over, bob realized he should have just stayed logged in a bit longer the previous day to avoid facing a penalty today. Example 4. Our hero bob is still in midgard, however things are not going so well for the realm. The population balance has swung to hibernia and albion and now midgard has 25 players, albion has 50 players and hibernia has 100 players. Bob logs in to the zone just as the realm status check occurs. He and everyone else in his realm who are present in the zone with him now get a 50% bonus to realm points earned. Everyone cheers! They all continue playing for another hour and more mids show up, now making the distribution of mid, alb , hib players 50,50, 100. At this point the server status check occurs and their bonuses are now only 25%. Everyone boos for a bit but they remain enthusiastic since they are all still getting a bonus! Bob and friends continue playing for another hour, by which all populations become even in numbers and now they begin earning normal realm point rates. Bob and friends decide to log off for the day since they have been playing for 3 hours already and await the next day of fun! Example 5 Fearless bob is once again fighting for midgard. Things are still bleak for the realm. The population balance remains in favor of hibernia and albion and now midgard has 25 players, albion has 50 players and hibernia has 100 players. Bob logs in to the zone just as the realm status check occurs. He and everyone else in his realm who are present in the zone with him now get a 50% bonus to realm points earned. Everyone cheers! Now bob gets a naughty idea. Bob wants to go play an albion character and he thinks that if he logs out now, he will get to keep his current bonus for when he logs in again tomorrow. Tomorrow comes and midgard is once again the dominant realm. Bob logs in. To his surprise, no bonus! However he did get the current penalty for the realm though! Too bad bob, you should have stuck around when you guys had the bonus. Maybe you mids will get it another day! Example 6 The now seasoned Veteran Bob continues fighting for migard. Things are still bleak for the realm. The population balance remains in favor of hibernia and albion and now midgard has 25 players, albion has 50 players and hibernia has 100 players. Bob logs in to the zone just as the realm status check occurs. He and everyone else in his realm who are present in the zone with him now get a 50% bonus to realm points earned. Everyone cheers! Bob then notices that 10 of the 25 midgard players are leveling. Bob sighs deeply. 1 hour later the people are still there, and still havent participated in rvr when the realm status check occurs. Midgard's RP bonus is now increased to 75% due to it now checking only the 15 active participants in rvr. Everyone Cheers again! Example 6 The now seasoned Veteran Bob continues fighting for migard. Things are still bleak for the realm. The population balance remains in favor of hibernia and albion and now midgard has 25 players, albion has 50 players and hibernia has 100 players. Bob logs in to the zone just as the realm status check occurs. He and everyone else in his realm who are present in the zone with him now get a 50% bonus to realm points earned. Everyone cheers! Bob then notices that 10 of the 25 midgard players are leveling. Bob sighs deeply. 1 hour later the people are still there, and still havent participated in rvr when the realm status check occurs. Midgard's RP bonus is now increased to 75% due to it now checking only the 15 active participants in rvr. Bob Cheers again! Example 7 Bob TheUndefeatable maintains his loyalty to midgard. Things are still bleak for the realm. The population balance remains in favor of hibernia and albion and now midgard has 25 players, albion has 50 players and hibernia has 100 players. Bob logs in to the zone just as the realm status check occurs. He and everyone else in his realm who are present in the zone with him now get a 50% bonus to realm points earned. Everyone cheers! Bob then notices that 10 of the 25 midgard players are leveling. Bob sighs deeply. 1 hour goes by and these players haven't participated in rvr by the time the realm status check occurs. Midgard's Bonus now increases to 75%. Everyone cheers! During a fight however, bob's group and the groups of levelers engage some enemies. The levelers manage to attack some enemy realm players and acquire some RPs. A few seconds later, the realm status check occurs. Midgard's RP bonus is now decreased to 50% due to it now checking all 25 active participants in rvr. Bob and this group sigh deeply. Example 8 Midgard's fortunes have shifted for the better and Bob TheUndefeatable logs in to seize the moment. The population balance is now midgard and hibernia and now midgard has 100 players, albion has 25 players and hibernia has 50 players. Bob logs in to the zone just as the realm status check occurs. He and everyone else in his realm who are present in the zone with him now get a 50% penalty to realm points earned. Everyone boos! Bob then notices that 50 of the 100 midgard players are leveling. Bob sighs deeply. 1 hour goes by and these players haven't participated in rvr by the time the realm status check occurs. Midgard's penalty now decrease to 0%, meaning all sides are equal. Everyone cheers! During a fight however, bob's group and the groups of levelers engage some enemies. The levelers manage to attack some enemy realm players and acquire some RPs. A few seconds later, the realm status check occurs. Midgard's RP bonus is now decreased to 50% due to it now checking all 100 active participants in rvr. Bob and this group sigh deeply. Last edited by Zippity on Oct 25, 2008 13:51, edited 3 times in total.
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This is not an offense -.- @Zippity: I'm worried for your rp-balancing idea. I'm afraid some people could think "bah, 11 realmates in agramon, if I go there I will have rp penalty, i'll wait they log out". I agree with you about the need of many new players for agramon rvr, the problem is to birng them |
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Wouldn't this make experienced groups try to get other ppl out of Agramon? And what about levelers they'd count in as well (and those tend to not participate in RvR at all). I like some aspects of your idea but IMO it'd result in even more realm switching (logging from one realm to another), which isn't exactly what we need atm  <img src="http://www.fallenearth.fr/daoc/daoc2.php?player=Thraxia" />
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You forget levelers in this conversation and thats wrong
<img src="http://217.86.191.120:81/sig.php?chars=Shien;Sumuran;Silen;Silia;Sinius;Silenius">
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i fear it would end with the same grp chasing others out of agra to get the bonus.. or even more x-realming, logging in, checking numbers and changing realms to get bonus...
and abouth the new faces in agra.. most new players find it hard to go there, not only cause they don't get invites from other grps, some players just switch realms to "farm" the "noob" grps running in agra, this sort of behaviour kills realm spirit and makes others think there is no loyalty toward a certain realm on this server... we've seen what it does to the events gm's worked so hard on.. how can some of you talk abouth rvr if you play in 2 or even all 3 realms? and what do you think others feel abouth that? a lot of people stay loyal to their realm, and yes, i stopped rvr a long time ago, and i just gave some of the reasons why i stopped, going to agra and beeing told to go away cause you guy's want to play fair fights, and if we form a grp and go to the battlefield anyway, we got ignored or told we killed rvr, but 10 min later we got killed by the same guy's who changed realms to finish us off... things may have changed a bit since those day's, but i dunno if it has gotten any better.. |
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Yes it is, it's exacly what Nayru wants to change, he wants that noone flames in the broadcast. Animate others to add that those who don't like it get aggressive or flaming how much he or she leached that the others get aggressive is the same like saying log out you adders ****** off or sth. Please don't see always just one side of the coin. And stay realistic, I think Uthgard is no seccond UN which has to proclaim worldpeace as an realistic aim.
See a positive aspect in this, they changed the realm because in one realm there were to much enemies so the enemy logged out, they created rvr for you. Do you see what I wanna say? Duke |
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