hmm, if the players that take a keep, would take the time to defend it, the ennemy would have to attack it to get rp...

if there is only one keep, no way you could defend it against two RP-hungry realms...

@massa: thx to translate my post into simple engish
you perfectly told everyone the things i wanted to say in half the words i needed

Massa wrote:but in every RvR grp midgard got celerity...

Well, thats the way DAoC works. Celerity for Midgard as THE melee based
realm. I really can understand why you are asking for posi-styles including
procs on keepdoors. But lets take a closer look onto the concerned classes:


Savage:

needs healer and support to use his selfbuffs (selffbuffs use 5%hp each)
average dmg with one hit onto a keepdoor: ~20 dmg
possible dmg if quad-hitting: ~200dmg (multihits do less dmg than first hit)
dmg depends on luck. most of the time you do single/double hits.


Valewalker:

does NOT need support to use his selfbuffs, armor absorb ~plate
selfbuffs including 39% selfhaste
average dmg on a keepdoor: guess ~20dmg, too (some info pls)
IF posi-styles would work, an additional 198delve styleproc would hit
the door which does NOT depend on luck!
--> if buffed reaches melee speed-cap = styleproc every 3sec


Reaver:

does NOT need support
average dmg on a keepdoor: ~20dmg (info by danger)
IF posi styles would work, an additional 153delve styleproc would hit
the door which does not depend on luck!
--> if buffed reaches melee speed cap = styleproc every 1.5sec


So, with your suggested changes reavers and valewalkers would do
incredible dmg on keepdoors while still being classes of realms that
have got a superior keepdefense capability. Also the stylproc-dmg
is not dependant on luck.
I can only suggest again to leave the system as it currently works
and additional use SIEGE WEAPONRY followed by a revision of keep
doors and the introduction of battering rams.
Im going to test dmg of field siege weapons today and will give some
feedback.

@Massa: in 1.83 celerity was introduced as a paladin aura. not only mids
whined about overpowering Alb which now had petspamm, celerity and
superior keep defense capabilities. also the paladins whined, due to too
many chants which need around 4hands to be effectivly switched ^^

VN-boards


@Draco: focusing Uthgard RvR onto one keep would mean zerg at all.
The current system including three keeps gives for example players who
want to exp a chance to stay hidden within emain or to flee to a safe tower
or keep. Also the idea of siege-rvr would need a complete rework of keeps
including stronger gates additional keepguards and so on.

Greets
Sethor

if you want the posi based style that means PA too ^^ that means open the door safely in 30 sec

Problem remains: Midgard groups take down Doors way faster than Alb or Hib Groups, because they run more Tanks and have more Support, so its no disadvantage that the Savage needs Support to make up for HP loss. Its not like Gaius is complaining about solo Savages with no support. There is always lots of Support in Midgard, because Mids have the most fun to play Support Classes. I am just leveling a Healer and a Shaman and i can say there are lots of them and they are fun to solo, compared to Alb or Hib Supporters and fun to play in the BGs, solo and grouped.

Midgard runs more Tanks than other Realms, has more Dualwielders and the only class able to perform Tripple and Quad Hits at cap Speed and at the same time get the only +DPS Selfbuff in the game (and since it only ups DPs and is no damage add or proc, it works on doors).

Tower Doors go down faster than it takes to buy and ready the cauldron of Oil. With a Mid Tankgroup on a Towerdoor, you are lucky if you have the 20 seconds it takes to log out, but they will probably catch you before you can log.

Camping Castergroups are easyly avoided and destroyed in open field when they leave the tower.

Only way i see to fix the Problem is to introduce Rams and make doors so hard, that it takes any group way longer without rams than with Rams.
As i said before: To make it still possible for smaller groups, it would be nice to introduce the small Rams too.

cleric has dps selfbuff too

Thraxia wrote:cleric has dps selfbuff

well... smiting specline, so he has none

my reaver does ~20 dmg ,max 25 on doors,even with style.now u got ur info.
plus : does NOT need support . not? ever saw a reaver without enduregen? yeah..4 styles plus slam,endu empty.great..reaver is the UBERCHAR!

Well assuming your reaver uses a 3.0delay flex (thats what I'd do for best
leviathan spam ) it is just natural that you do a lot less dmg. Please try a
3.9 or 4.2delay flex.

To make it even more clear for you, danger. What I meant with "needs
no support" is...

Savage on door looses 10%HP every 15sec. This means he has no more HP
in 60sec if he could use positionalstyles. If a Savage uses his hp-to-endu
ability he looses further 15%, plus to deal good dmg a Savage has to equip
max available delay claws.
So, to be able to run a Savage with his features you must take at least a healer
with you and to be honest...I can suck healers OOM in less than a minute atm
In comparison Valewalkers and Reavers suffer no HP for selfbuffs and could
both just use a 3.0delay weapon which uses a lot less endu/style, because
the dmg would be delivered via styleprocs.

It is just about how DAoC and it's classes work in "Mythics" given parameters
which many people just don't want to accept, because they are only able
to see their advantages and not other realms disadvantages.
Healer/Shaman supported 2hand-wielders and Savages just do an insane
amount of dmg and even if you beefed up keep doors without adding rams
it would still be the same - Midgard is the fastest door-salvager.
On live servers that problem is solved via high-resist/hp keepdoors on
which a melee char might do up to 5-10dmg probably. There you are forced
to take rams with you.
And this is exactly the way Uthgard should solve the problem, but I guess
some would still complain that Midgard was still in advantage with such a
system due to sooooo many high-str Trolls making a group able to carry
thousands of rams ^^

Greets
Sethor

Ok, I just finished running keep-door tests. The results are:

Savage does ~20dmg (~25dmg with selfbuff)

Field ballistas do ~200dmg (*weights ~150pounds)
Fiel Trebuchets do ~550dmg (*weights ~250pounds)
*weight with equipment

So, everything is just fine. Field some siege weapons and you compensate
the lack of melee power in an Alb/Hib caster group setup.

Greets
Sethor

Savage 25 Points on Keep Doors every 1,5 Seconds.
Double-, Tripple- and Quadhits included its 50 every 1,5 Seconds.
(I hope Sethors numbers include Styles or its even more)

Siegeweapons 200 or 550 every 15 Seconds? (The Weapons you can buy on the keep need 15 Seconds to be ready again, so i am guessing here).

So Savage 500 Damage in 15 Seconds,
Siegeweapons 200-550.

Savage arrives and starts whacking the door when he arrives,
Siegeweapon needs to be carried around and build, parts traded between groupmembers, which takes about the same time or longer than a Midgard melee Group needs to break open a Tower Door.

So everything is NOT fine, Siegeweapons should do a lot more damage than any class that is not controlling a siegeweapon.

Sethor wrote:Well assuming your reaver uses a 3.0delay flex (thats what I'd do for bestleviathan spam ) it is just natural that you do a lot less dmg. Please try a 3.9 or 4.2delay flex.

You get bigger Numbers then and longer delays between the Hits, so the same damage, unless you have someone boosting your attackspeed with Celerity.

Sethor wrote:Savage on door looses 10%HP every 15sec. This means he has no more HP in 60sec if he could use positionalstyles.

So Savages have only 40% HP?

Sethor wrote:On live servers that problem is solved via high-resist/hp keepdoors on which a melee char might do up to 5-10dmg probably. There you are forced to take rams with you.
And this is exactly the way Uthgard should solve the problem, but I guess ...

The one thing i agree with and i am also saying for a long time is: Keepdoors need to be made harder and Rams introduced.
To make up for less people on Uthgard compared to live and thus not so much carrying capacity, the lightweight rams should be in too.

theres another problem with the keepdoors if positional styles would be enabled: the doors are level 1, so you would do around 600 dmg i think, with the valewalker proc, if a normal weaponsproc with 95 delve activates, you get dmgmessages from arround 300-400, depending from mana stat

fab wrote:

Thraxia wrote:cleric has dps selfbuff

well... smiting specline, so he has none

50% dps buff in enhancement specline

Thraxia wrote:

fab wrote:

Thraxia wrote:cleric has dps selfbuff

well... smiting specline, so he has none

50% dps buff in enhancement specline

hm i think this is 1.8x spec, but i am not sure, in my charplaner it doesnt exist

According to CBuilder 2.0 there are the following Enhancement Spec spells:

- Level 17: Refiner's Strength
- Level 28: Purifying Strength
- Level 39: Mercybringer

On Uthgard both low and middle one exist - so I guess the high one does, too.

well anyway it's irrelevant, cleric does crap dmg no matter what (I know it, because I play one, 5 dmg with dps buff on gate)