Zarkor wrote:BG RvR is NO reference to frontier RvR and will never be. The only way to get better at frontier RvR is by doing frontier RvR.

This statement has more truth in it then any other statements in this thread. I try and tell people in my guild this all the time. It only gets more difficult in frontier RvR after Thid. Its for a combination of things. One is the RR and template difference in toons. Another is the amount of time people have played together. The last one being that tactics used in Thid and other BG's have no place in frontier RvR.

In BG's if you have 1 good healer and a couple good tanks that can assist you will win most even fights. In frontier RvR that is a minimum requirement. In BG RvR you can pick up whatever kind of PUG you want and as long as you have some decent players behind them you will do fine. In frontier RvR PUG's can work, but they need alot more refining and ALOT better players to make them work. BG RvR and frontier RvR should never even be in the same sentence.

As far as the gaurd tasks are concerned, I do see where people are coming from that want them removed. If there was always action to be had in the frontiers then I would agree that the gaurd task missions should be removed, but what do you expect people to do that play this game for RvR and when they play there is no action? There have been many nights that I have spent 1-2 hours + in Emain and not find a single person to kill. This is usually around 8-11pm (central standard US time). Maybe a way around this would be to put a cap on the missions. Maybe make it so you can only do 5 or 10 on 1 toon in a 24 hour period. By doing this people can still supplement their RvR w/ some gaurd tasks or use gaurd tasks to fill in down times w/out earning high RR's on nothing but gaurd tasks.

In the End, DAoC should be a GAME and not hard WORK. ( it's my opinion )

And most players dont play to log frustrated out, after trying to challenge Emain... they want fun...

cya

I agree currently that the BG tactics in no way shape or form translate to Emain RVR currently. However, with a RR cap increase I think it would encourage new guilds to form set grps to run in thid because they would feel they would have a better chance competing at RR5 vs RR4L2. The increase in guild groups running in thid would have a trickle down effect and make those horrible BG pugs unviable. Which would force people to build better PUGs in the BGs and use similair tactics used in Emain to combat the guild grps. Both would result in better PUGs and potentially more Guild grps running in Emain = More Incoming for everyone. Where as now PUGs have to zerg to win fights or you have the High RR Guild grps running set grps using voice servers. Bottom line it should step up the competition.

Additionally I think the guard task system is also one of the biggest problems and should have a cap at RR5. The way it is now you might as well give rps for everymob in the game and we can all go PVE with our RR13 toons.

i like to run BG's in a duo with my wife. If we were to all follow your suggestion, then i may as well stop playing this game, along with everyone else who likes to solo/duo, with the exception of stealth classes.

Forcing everyone in BG's to run in either a set group; guild group or advanced PUG will just kill the game for those who don't care about being number one, and just want some casual fun.

That, in my opinion, is what is spoiling the fun in RVR, not the fact that some groups are set up better, but the elitist attitude of its players and the mentality that you have to play this 24/7 just to compete.

I also think that getting Realm points for PVE killing, even if they are realm guards is wrong. Anyone who gains RP's in this was should get them stripped from their characters so they are forced to earn Realm Points by killing Realm Players.

RonELuvv wrote:

Zarkor wrote:BG RvR is NO reference to frontier RvR and will never be. The only way to get better at frontier RvR is by doing frontier RvR.

This statement has more truth in it then any other statements in this thread. I try and tell people in my guild this all the time. It only gets more difficult in frontier RvR after Thid. Its for a combination of things. One is the RR and template difference in toons. Another is the amount of time people have played together. The last one being that tactics used in Thid and other BG's have no place in frontier RvR.

In BG's if you have 1 good healer and a couple good tanks that can assist you will win most even fights. In frontier RvR that is a minimum requirement. In BG RvR you can pick up whatever kind of PUG you want and as long as you have some decent players behind them you will do fine. In frontier RvR PUG's can work, but they need alot more refining and ALOT better players to make them work. BG RvR and frontier RvR should never even be in the same sentence.

As far as the gaurd tasks are concerned, I do see where people are coming from that want them removed. If there was always action to be had in the frontiers then I would agree that the gaurd task missions should be removed, but what do you expect people to do that play this game for RvR and when they play there is no action? There have been many nights that I have spent 1-2 hours + in Emain and not find a single person to kill. This is usually around 8-11pm (central standard US time). Maybe a way around this would be to put a cap on the missions. Maybe make it so you can only do 5 or 10 on 1 toon in a 24 hour period. By doing this people can still supplement their RvR w/ some gaurd tasks or use gaurd tasks to fill in down times w/out earning high RR's on nothing but gaurd tasks.

There is nothing in emain, because people are guardtasking at these hours instead of going there, more rewarding for them then dying vs a solo player over and over.

Agramon was way better for casual/solo/smallman action then OF ever will...

Fgs have it the same and stealthers have a great time camping chokepoints.

RonELuvv wrote: As far as the gaurd tasks are concerned, I do see where people are coming from that want them removed. If there was always action to be had in the frontiers then I would agree that the gaurd task missions should be removed, but what do you expect people to do that play this game for RvR and when they play there is no action? There have been many nights that I have spent 1-2 hours + in Emain and not find a single person to kill. This is usually around 8-11pm (central standard US time). Maybe a way around this would be to put a cap on the missions. Maybe make it so you can only do 5 or 10 on 1 toon in a 24 hour period. By doing this people can still supplement their RvR w/ some gaurd tasks or use gaurd tasks to fill in down times w/out earning high RR's on nothing but gaurd tasks.

Just overhaul the entire RvR setting to solve the ACTUAL problem. Measures like the ones you propose are certianly well intended but serve no real purpose. They only add workload and derive the focus from what really needs to be solved ASAP. Guard tasks are a tiny (dirty) plaster on an enormous gaping wound. Instead of cleaning the plaster, stitch up the wound for good.

Cerberos wrote:I agree currently that the BG tactics in no way shape or form translate to Emain RVR currently. However, with a RR cap increase I think it would encourage new guilds to form set grps to run in thid because they would feel they would have a better chance competing at RR5 vs RR4L2. The increase in guild groups running in thid would have a trickle down effect and make those horrible BG pugs unviable. Which would force people to build better PUGs in the BGs and use similair tactics used in Emain to combat the guild grps. Both would result in better PUGs and potentially more Guild grps running in Emain = More Incoming for everyone. Where as now PUGs have to zerg to win fights or you have the High RR Guild grps running set grps using voice servers. Bottom line it should step up the competition.

Same here. Your reasoning is more backwards than it is progressive, no offense because I know you mean well. Basicly what you're saying is that the dissatisfactionary situation which currently plagues end RvR (extremely casual/new player unfriendly environment) will change if you try to introduce the same environment in the last BG. First of all this won't solve things, it will actually make things worse. Second, think about the problem, its causes, and how to solve them instead of making a leap of faith that would magically lead to a solution while in practice nothing changes.

That being said, I'll try going over this once more.

Let's analyse our current situation. As we know, end RvR is crowded with mid-high RR players.
On off-hours there's some smallman action that requires you to either have a speedclass at your disposal/be extremely geared up/be a stealther. In general, even smallman is optimised in a way that only larger groups of casual/newer players can defeat their opponents in a satisfactionary way (meaning that they don't have to spend 2 hours of dying before actually being able to kill something). The action in general is low, which further increases the problem of wasting time. Especially since those who die most, waste the most.

On primetime there's still smallman action in Emain, but the opportunity for actual smallman groups to roam decently without getting run over is almost zero. What's left are MG campers or stealthers. Suffice to say, this is no satisfactionary situation at all. On the other hand this is where FG RvR comes out. Now the problem with this as we all know is that there's a huge barrier for newer/casual players to join this since to be able to win fights, a group needs to have a very respectable number of at least decently skilled and RRed players, which rather minimise the risk of losing by fending off casual/newer players. They prefer to run with who they know in order not to waste their time losing because of "some random that doesn't know how to x or y". Trying to teach them what to do and why will take even more time that they rather spend on RvR themselves. They already passed that situation somehow, for instance by weeks/months of dedicated RvR or by getting into a dedicated RvR guild, both of which are not even remotely interesting for the casual player. The reason they do this is not so much the "elitist" attitude, it's more a logical way of trying to make the best of your time spent RvRing. The situation is the same for everyone and if you have the capability to cope with it, there's no logic in taking the real risk of wasting your time. In other words, the situation we're currently in forces players to optimise themselves and their group to prevent losing 24/7 and thus waste their time trying to RvR.
What is left to do for those players who didn't find a group is to either form a PuG with players like themselves, meaning that they will be the weakest, worst organised group running. In other words, they're dead even before buffing up. And this would be if there even were enough players to build such a group. The other option would be to make a larger group consisting of about 10-12(+) of these players. This would grant them better chances of competing indeed, but they're facing 2 problems: 1. They hardly find enough players since there's just too few of them (most new players are driven away by the situation as it is now after a couple of days/weeks AND the only players that are even considered for endRvR all come out of Thid and are level 48+, which is already a requirement on itself). 2. This actually requires a lot of organisation and a leading player to keep the participants motivated while searching additional members which can easily take up to 30minutes- 1 hour, which is again practicaly impossible. No casual/new player will find the confidence/time/effort to actually build a battlegroup with 2 groups that run similar at similar speeds, have a respectable amount of class types in each group and generally know what their tactic would be.

So to sum up:
A) Smallman action time is low. There's a problem with the RvR influx here. Non-speed classes can barely solo viably. Running from DL to MMG with hastener speed for instance takes up to 12 minutes from start to end. IF you find an opponent that you can possibly kill, you have a 1-5 minute fight. If you die, you're gone for another 15 minutes at least trying to get back in the field.
B) Buffpots/Charges are still way too controlling in smallman action. Personally I run 2 charges and 2 pots. Why? Because I can and because I don't want to take the risk losing because I didn't use x or y. As said above, there's too much at stake not to maximise your potential.
C) Casual/new players do not have a real opportunity to RvR on primetime. Their playerpool is too small (due to players leaving the pool because of dissatisfaction or demotivation, which is very understandable) to form organise their only way of competition. And even still, there's just no organisation, that's simply one of the aspects of the casual RvR playerpool.


Possible solutions:
A) Implement a porting system for the home realms. Porting to the closest keep your realm holds to the zone that holds the enemy realms' portal keeps (primary RvR zone). (Briefine Dun Crimthain for Hib for instance if Crimthain is under Hib control.) This porting system shuts down once the primary RvR zone contains a certain number of players so that action can spread out when it gets too crowded. From then on it's either horse or foot.
Keep in mind that this would be in effect in all RvR lands, which means in general, Alb and Mid zones will permanently able to port to their primary RvR zones (since those zones are harder to saturate), making these more attractive for smallman action when Emain gets overrun by FGs+ for instance.
B) As requested many times before, limit the maximum buffpot/charge use to 1 charge 1 buffpot max. This does not include Mana/Endu/Health Reg pots for instance.
C) This one is the hardest to solve. It boils down to one thing though: drasticly increase the casual/new player potential playerpool in RvR. As you might have read, I have proposed to implement the Old BGs (15 - 35) and have an additional BG from 35 - ~40 (possibly a BG rotating NF BG maps). However this doesn't suffice at all. Without granting the players who left the last BG a real incentive to actually RvR instead of starting to grind to 50, they WILL grind to 50 and there will still be no room for those who don't. In other words the barrier will remain and the boring PvE grind would simple be shifted from lvl 1-30 to lvl ~40 - 50. In order to prevent this from happening, drasticly increase the character improvement potential of frontier RvR for under lvl50 players in any way except for Realm Points itself. Huge XP/gold rewards and improved PvE opportunities in the frontiers (spawns/boni/drops) are in my mind the best way to do this. New players NEED to be ATTRACTED to frontier RvR or the problem will not be solved (forcing players here or there will never result in a satisfying solution). Ideally, players at level 35+ might go out in the frontiers to hunt other lower level players or even high level smallman players because the character progression is so rewarding if they succeed. This might sound a bit exaggerated at first, but it is the only way to make frontier RvR attractive enough to from a critical amount of casual/new players to be able to sustain the extreme pressure that the current mid-high RR/skill/organised players are putting on the entire frontier RvR population. If the amount of new/casual players is too low, they will slowly but surely get pushed back into the victim role they now struggle with.

Addtionaly, the key for success here is that these measures are taken IN COMBINATION with eachother. They have to form a combined impact so that there are no holes in the system (for instance BGs get reworked before the increased rewards for non-50 players). Or for instance the keep ports come 3 months later when the newly motivated casual players are losing a portion of their population due to the age-old timesinks. The combination of the solution HAS to be combined in ONE big overhaul for this to have its full effect which it so badly needs. Casual/new RvR players need to reach a critical playerbase for this issue to be solved (if they're too few, they will get pushed aside by the mid-high RR population as is so easily happening now). This can never be achieved by slight measures here and there. Drastic, thorough and direct measures need to be combined for it to work.

Like I said, this is in my opinion the most challenging, but at the same time most crippling problem Uthgard faces. On the other hand if this gets fixed properly, it will also mean a ridiculous boost in interest and thus satisfied(!) playerbase, which -ironicly- will further support and empower the position of casual/new players in RvR due to a steady increase of their population. That is also why its so crucial to do it right from the start. Once this success is set in motion, the situation will basicly improve itself.



PS: I would appreciate if people started to think constructively to solve the actual problem as I have pointed out here. Further elaboration on the problem itself is always welcome too. There is no point in taking measures that do not address the real problem. They get us nowhere but further from an actual solution.

well having been intimidated into only scanning that massive wall of text; i wanted to point out that having rich rewards for PVE/RVR in frontier zones for the under 50's just means that i will /XP off at 49 and do RVR whilst still getting the increase in gold and drops.

this is far too open to abuse.

i also fail to see how shifting the grind from lvls 1-35 to 40-50, and therefore the places to do the grind, makes a shred of difference to end game RVR. All it will do is place PVE minded players into an RVR situation, so that the regular RVR groups have some more people to farm.

Speaking from my own perspective, if i had the choice of steady XP and normal drops in a PVE zone or sporadic XP and drops in an RVR zone, then I'd pick the "tortoise over the hare", because nothing pis$es me off more than getting ganked in DF when i'm trying to PVE.

borog wrote:well having been intimidated into only scanning that massive wall of text; i wanted to point out that having rich rewards for PVE/RVR in frontier zones for the under 50's just means that i will /XP off at 49 and do RVR whilst still getting the increase in gold and drops.

this is far too open to abuse.

Even if they do, then there might be a slightly larger portion of lvl 49 players in RvR, who cares? The reason players would /xp off at 49 would mainly be to finance their RvR gear, which doesn't take forever. In general, players will prefer to get their lvl 50 abilities/spec over a benefit in gold that can be achieved through other ways too, even though a good RvR night could provide you with more cash than a genuine farming night. If you go farming you will generally have a more steady cashflow overall. For this 'abuse' to really work you would have to be able to count on steady kills, which in RvR is never given.

In the end, whether or not people would 'abuse' this can only be tested in practice (if its really problematic adjustments can be made) and even so, new players trying to abuse this would more than anything help solve the problem by actually RvRing.

borog wrote:i also fail to see how shifting the grind from lvls 1-35 to 40-50, and therefore the places to do the grind, makes a shred of difference to end game RVR. All it will do is place PVE minded players into an RVR situation, so that the regular RVR groups have some more people to farm.

The biggest problem casuals and new players face in frontier RvR is a lack of character progression due to the reason stated before. By making it possible to progress decently in RvR, in other words by experiencing RvR vs the usual grind, players will not be as concerned about 'grinding' or 'getting ready' to RvR because they already can RvR in a way that is at least satisfactionary. Surely it won't be the best XP. Normal XP groups will have a steadier xp flow than the genuine new players in RvR, but they will be spending their hours in a generally less entertaining manner. Of course some players will still prefer to PvE as they find more fun in faster character progression (relative since they don't get RPs), but nothing prevents them from doing so. XP, money and drops will still be available outside RvR just as good.

The goal is not to provide more farm to today's regular RvR player, but to make today's RvR player just a part of the entire population. Enemies that you encounter should not always be the ones you see today. If that's still the case, nothing really changes since casuals will still get rolled as much as they are now. That's also why there need to be enough of them and not a handful.

borog wrote:Speaking from my own perspective, if i had the choice of steady XP and normal drops in a PVE zone or sporadic XP and drops in an RVR zone, then I'd pick the "tortoise over the hare", because nothing pis$es me off more than getting ganked in DF when i'm trying to PVE.

Nothing stops you from doing that and it's your full right to chose how you prefer to progress your character. Some players will be RR4-5 at lvl 50 by RvRing after the BGs, some will still be RR3-3L5 because they prefer to PvE to 50. If getting ganked while PvEing really ****** you off that much, don't PvE in a frontier zone. Simple as that.

Not this again.

Well, one thing i notice a lack of keep/realm defense. Since the relic guards aren't dependent on the number of keeps claimed in the home realm, there is little motivation to claim/defend them. I realize this was probably done on purpose, as the population on Uth doesn't have 8 (minimum) large active guilds per realm to keep them claimed and upgraded. Also having the relic guards upgraded in level depending on keep level (live-like from Old Frontiers) would require relic raids to be much larger.

But, ignore that for the moment: more people may be motivated to defend the realm (read "zerg it up") if there was more benefit to maintaining control of the realms keeps. Better organized realms would be able to coordinate efforts and win the "Strategy" aspect of DAoC.
I don't think spending more time in BGs will help get more people out of them and into RvR...besides, R4L2 is sufficient for getting some toys.

Back to relic raiding point - I remember in OF on live, a relic raid was slow and deliberate. We had to take out a number of keeps prior to hitting the relic keep to knock out some of the uber guards there.

Another aspect of the Relic guards, in OF on live, was they were split among the keeps with relics in them - meaning a realm with relics in both strength and power relic keeps halved the uber NPC guards. This would make it difficult for 1 realm to hold all 6 relics.

Braxis wrote:Not this again.

Yes this again.

"Agramon is better" is not A) constructive B) a solution to the actual problem or C) realistic.

I rather try to at least get somewhere productive. Even if it's just on the forum.

Zarkor man I love it when you get all enthusiastic about Uthgard all over again just to get back to "fck this" attitude 2 months later.

Zarkor wrote:Even if they do, then there might be a slightly larger portion of lvl 49 players in RvR, who cares? The reason players would /xp off at 49 would mainly be to finance their RvR gear, which doesn't take forever.

So are you saying that lvl 50's don't require cash because they will have already got their RVR gear? RVR players with too much money is already a recognized problem on this server, why give them more? It will just make the economy even more broken.

Zarkor wrote:The biggest problem ... lack of character progression ... By making it possible to progress decently in RvR, ...Surely it won't be the best XP. Normal XP groups will have a steadier xp flow than the genuine new players in RvR, ...

^just trimming your quote down a little... on one hand you state that the lack of character progression from 40-50 is the problem and then state that people should go to rvr zones to level. You then go one to say that leveling in rvr is slower then PVE, but people will have more fun.

Why would someone see the benefit of having steady progression to 50 as worse for them than having to spend 3 times longer getting there in an rvr zone where they are constantly being steamrolled by RR8-10 groups? ...repeated deaths is not fun.

Zarkor wrote:The goal is not to provide more farm to today's regular RvR player, but to make today's RvR player just a part of the entire population. Enemies that you encounter should not always be the ones you see today. If that's still the case, nothing really changes since casuals will still get rolled as much as they are now. That's also why there need to be enough of them and not a handful.

that's just the thing, the players will be the same and you will still get steamrolled by the higher RR groups. Unless of course we can magically create a huge influx of 40-50's, then there may be too many for the 8 mans to handle. However, this leads on to a whole new argument about zerging being detrimental to 8 man RVR, and lets face it, the 8 man groups shout the loudest when things don't do their way.

Zarkor wrote:Nothing stops you from doing that and it's your full right to chose how you prefer to progress your character. Some players will be RR4-5 at lvl 50 by RvRing after the BGs, some will still be RR3-3L5 because they prefer to PvE to 50. If getting ganked while PvEing really [I am a little bunny and like flowers] you off that much, don't PvE in a frontier zone. Simple as that.

right so your answer is to effectively turn open field rvr into a kind of BG setting where lowbies level up off each other and the big boys stay away for some reason?

Zarkor wrote:

Braxis wrote:Not this again.

Yes this again.

"Agramon is better" is not A) constructive B) a solution to the actual problem or C) realistic.

I rather try to at least get somewhere productive. Even if it's just on the forum.

Enjoy.