big problem with our current frontiers: mob levels. in agramon you could find umbral hulk equivalent mobs in several camps. around emain the best mobs you can find is blue to orange to 50. these mobs are for like level 35 groups. the mob camps in all of the frontiers are senseless. they are useless to farm, and even with a nice bonus on them you'd only be attracting grey/green xp groups. the frontiers needs a complete overhaul, maybe replaced with the exact same mob camps from agramon. and tighter together too, makes no sense for the mob camps to be sprinkled across a 20k x 20k area, noone wants to do xp where you have to spend 5 minutes walking to find the next mob, and this makes the zones unpleasant and down right frustrating for roaming 8 mans too.

easy/simple/obvious fix for uthgard is to revamp the frontiers mob camps like they were in agramon. there were level 45-49 xp/rvr 8mans who ventured into agramon every day at all hours for the amazing xp and wonderful mob camps. this stopped immiditaly when OF came out.

i dont come to the frontiers anymore mainly because i love keep fights. this dont exist in OF, and even if they did they would be boring and pointless because of how simple, buggy, and confined the OF keeps are. basically nothing will bring me back to the frontiers on this server in a serious way short of a NF revert, so this is all just theory for me. my spirit was crushed after i found out how much i hate OF keeps, and i have not played like i used to since this came. the most fun this server ever had was the epic 30v30v30 fights over fensalir in the middle of agramon. we didnt need silly forum topics to get these going, they were always spur of the moment because its actually what people wanted to do. nothing will ever come close again and those who missed it really missed something special.

A FG of 44+ PvE toons will not stand a chance in a RvR zone.

A bard and blademaster can easily wipe a FG. Holsten above who is agreeing with you has killed a FG of Albs in DF with a shaman. RAs + SC makes a big difference, and 1% of the population at level 44 is going to be in SCed gear.

No one in the right mind will go to the frontier to exp for 50% more bonus if it means you are getting ganked after 2-3 pulls. The xp/hour ratio will be horrible.

Your suggestion will only ****** off the 44-49 crowd because there will not be a BG available for RvR levelling. Agree 100% with Razzer's post on the merits of Thidranki.

BGs have the advantage that:
- you don't need the perfect group to gain rps/level
- you run at same RR
- you have a small area

Maybe from the point of view of a level 50 it would be great to have more enemies in RvR but as a leveler you would be thankful to have an opportunity to get some rr and have fun in BGs before you get 50 and have to run against the high rr players.

Do you even play a 44-49 toon Zarkor?

Astealoth wrote:easy/simple/obvious fix for uthgard is to revamp the frontiers mob camps like they were in agramon. there were level 45-49 xp/rvr 8mans who ventured into agramon every day at all hours for the amazing xp and wonderful mob camps. this stopped immiditaly when OF came out.

This is being worked on and this will help, slightly, but it won't offer the xpers more opportunities than to just xp, it will force them to be prey and nothing but prey because everyone who prefers to RvR at their level will simply go to the BGs. However if you replace the last BG by a 20-25x xp reward for RvR kills (for all levels!) in the frontiers, on top of the mob revamp, suddenly every level 45+ player that prefers to RvR when possible is going to look for likeminded players in their realm. This creates a way larger RvR potential in the frontiers. Both enemies and allies will have a much easier time finding fights and grpmembers. The key point here is though that a lot of people select the 45-49 players and claim "they can not compete", however, these players will also team up with players that are already level 50, simply because the level 50 KNOWS that even though he doesn't have the perfect group or setup, there will be similar targets roaming, giving them a decent chance and real viability to venture out like that. Compare that to our current situation, where you are obliged to form an ideal group as possible each time to stand a chance, and where Emain is the only real place for action...

Astealoth wrote:i dont come to the frontiers anymore mainly because i love keep fights. this dont exist in OF, and even if they did they would be boring and pointless because of how simple, buggy, and confined the OF keeps are. basically nothing will bring me back to the frontiers on this server in a serious way short of a NF revert, so this is all just theory for me. my spirit was crushed after i found out how much i hate OF keeps, and i have not played like i used to since this came. the most fun this server ever had was the epic 30v30v30 fights over fensalir in the middle of agramon. we didnt need silly forum topics to get these going, they were always spur of the moment because its actually what people wanted to do. nothing will ever come close again and those who missed it really missed something special.

In terms of keeps, NF outclasses OF, that is true and I won't deny it. Even though this is the main argument to go back to NF, I am still in favor of attempting to maximise OF's potential beforehand. OF is still one of the reasons it attracts the number of players we have, even though it is inferior on the siege aspect, it is superior on the attractiveness to the larger crowd who are appealed by the classic aspect. However this attractiveness fades away with a poor implementation as we have seen now, which is why I believe it is still in our best interest to optimise OF.

Voloxy wrote:A FG of 44+ PvE toons will not stand a chance in a RvR zone.

A bard and blademaster can easily wipe a FG. Holsten above who is agreeing with you has killed a FG of Albs in DF with a shaman. RAs + SC makes a big difference, and 1% of the population at level 44 is going to be in SCed gear.

No one in the right mind will go to the frontier to exp for 50% more bonus if it means you are getting ganked after 2-3 pulls. The xp/hour ratio will be horrible.

Completely false. I have seen a FG of lvl 45+ xpers wipe 6man RvR players, I've seen a trio level 35 players kill off a level 50, etc etc. XPers do stand a chance, and XPers who take the incentive themselves to actively search for other xpers/xper hunters at the right time and place will manage to get just as many kills as a slighlty smaller group of level 50s with the same goal. Just look back at Agramon, it wasn't uncommon that an XP group got wiped by RvR players, but it certainly was possible for a reasonably decent xp group to kill off their attackers.
On top of that, Agramon, even though being a lot smaller and thus more dangerous than OF, offered the best xp/hour you could possibly get if you were cautious enough. All the arguments I quoted are invalid.

Voloxy wrote:Your suggestion will only [I am a little bunny and like flowers] off the 44-49 crowd because there will not be a BG available for RvR levelling. Agree 100% with Razzer's post on the merits of Thidranki.

BGs have the advantage that:
- you don't need the perfect group to gain rps/level
- you run at same RR
- you have a small area

Maybe from the point of view of a level 50 it would be great to have more enemies in RvR but as a leveler you would be thankful to have an opportunity to get some rr and have fun in BGs before you get 50 and have to run against the high rr players.



Do you even play a 44-49 toon Zarkor?

I have played several 44-49 toons, Voloxy, and I also see how Thidranki has a significant impact on end-RvR and the performance of casual players there. It completely erases every non-50 from the RvR zones except for an odd xper here and there, which is bound to be prey because his enemies will always be level 50 and will always optimise their character for RvR. The fact that only level-50 players RvR makes the casual player instantly the weakest target. They are on the bottom of the food chain and it takes an immense amount of effort to crawl out of there because they always have to fight superior enemies. This is the main demotivating factor for a LOT of fresh players from Thidranki, who will just give up on end RvR after a few weeks due to the massive gap in effort required between their last Thid runs and first end RvR attempts. Now this is worse than you think, because in the end it demotivates them do even bother with endgame content, it stops them in their tracks and puts them for an obvious choice: quit Uthgard, reroll a toon or face another x amount of months before establishing somewhat in end-RvR. The third option is more often than not disregarded and most pick between option one and two. This server is losing players because of the immense gap bewteen the last BG and endRvR. This server will NOT lose players by removing the last BG and implementing my proposed changes. Rather the opposite.

Imagine BGs ending at 44 as last level with revamped XP bonuses and mob spots, as well as a 20-25x XP reward for RVR kills in the frontiers. This will bring in a serious amount of new frontier population that offers the chance for the casual players to experience more BG-like RvR, to start off not at the bottom but just a tier higher than that, giving them a more enjoyable and comfortable time RvRing and enjoying the endgame. To those players that prefer to RvR as a way of leveling, there will be a similar opportunity compared to the BGs considered the increase in XP reward which counters the harder enemies and most likely fewer encounters. On top of that, this bonus motivates not only the most RvR hungry, but also the ones who doubt to go out and RvR instead of being mere prey, which not only leads to more equal chances, but also more action for the level 45+ players that decide to RvR to level up. Casual players will be far less annoyed and demotivated because they can CHOOSE to either start at the bottom of the food chain or level up to 50 first before participating in end-RvR, and the chances of them not deciding to reroll or even quit the server will collapse. Those who can not face the force they are reckoning with at level 45 will not be left without real options to improve their characters as they are now, but will have the opportunity to gradually work their way up without being forced to try and compete at the moment they leave the BGs.

I know BG RvR does great things for xpers that can not compete in end RvR due to mere level (imo, level -40s), but for RvR hungry level 45+ players, OF RvR will be similarly rewarding within the right setting (enough motivation for level 45 players to also go out in the frontiers to RvR, rather than to just XP). As I explained above, with the removal of the last BG and the implementation of a 20-25x XP reward for an RvR kill in the frontiers (for all levels), the groups will more and more consist of enemies that are equally 'weak' in terms of levels, increasing the level 45+ players' chances and thus fun significantly.


Almost everyone opposed to my measures to improve end RvR fails to see what the consequences of having the latest BG as we have now are. They are far more devastating than you imagine, as I have explained above.

No, everyone understands what you're trying to say. It's just that people don't agree with you. =|

And no, XPer groups don't stand a chance in Open RvR. We can go test if you want, I'll even log and help you gather an XP group on the realm you choose. I can name at least 10 duos off the top of my head that will absolutely ANNIHILATE any lvl 44+ group, even twinks. Depending on the exact level and number of players, several high RR solos can do it to.

As for your last reply to me, I'll just come back to this:

Zarkor wrote:In all, I'd say it's AT LEAST worth the attempt..

No, it isn't. This has been your bottom argument on EVERY SINGLE thing regarding OF for like... a year? Dude, wtf. No. Not on this server, where we just "try" OF and end up with ZERO keep fights, and 5% solo RvR. Not here where you urge everyone to just let the staff "try" OF RAs, and we end up with them being completely uncustomized, nerfing hybrids, archers, destroying VWs, without Cure Nearsight and on top of all that with untestable RAs. Now this, which is (again) just plain wrong in principle if nothing else. Honestly, on this server, If someone asked to "just remove" something you care about and see if it goes, would you agree?

So no, it's not worth the attempt IMO, and as you can see I'm not alone in thinking that.

Nymeros wrote:No, everyone understands what you're trying to say. It's just that people don't agree with you. =|

And no, XPer groups don't stand a chance in Open RvR. We can go test if you want, I'll even log and help you gather an XP group on the realm you choose. I can name at least 10 duos off the top of my head that will absolutely ANNIHILATE any lvl 44+ group, even twinks. Depending on the exact level and number of players, several high RR solos can do it to.

For every duo that can 'roll' a FG of lvl 44+ retarded xpers, I can get u a 4man that easily gets rolled by a fg of lvl 44+ xpers. It depends on player skills more than anything and claiming a lvl 44+ grp of xpers cant kill anything is just pure bullshit. It happened in Agramon regularly.

Nymeros wrote:As for your last reply to me, I'll just come back to this:

Zarkor wrote:In all, I'd say it's AT LEAST worth the attempt..

No, it isn't. This has been your bottom argument on EVERY SINGLE thing regarding OF for like... a year? Dude, wtf. No. Not on this server, where we just "try" OF and end up with ZERO keep fights, and 5% solo RvR. Not here where you urge everyone to just let the staff "try" OF RAs, and we end up with them being completely uncustomized, nerfing hybrids, archers, destroying VWs, without Cure Nearsight and on top of all that with untestable RAs. Now this, which is (again) just plain wrong in principle if nothing else. Honestly, on this server, If someone asked to "just remove" something you care about and see if it goes, would you agree?

So no, it's not worth the attempt IMO, and as you can see I'm not alone in thinking that.

What have we tried so far? Horses? Wow, VERY structural changes...

Seriously though, there haven't been any structural changes and you oppose OF so much that you take even the slightest opportunity you get for bashing OF and all its possible changes as thoroughly as you can. Even though my proposal isn't even bound to a certain RvR zone as I explained before, you bash it simply because you link it to OF. If you don't bring any real arguments I'm done discussing this topic with you since reason won't match your intense need to bash anything which gives even a hint of being related to OF at all costs.

Switching topics doesn't bring anything to this discussion either.

I'm sorry, but are you claiming this isn't linked to OF? Seriously?

As for the XPer rolling and such, I've said it already - we can test it. Plus I never used the word "retarded" for anyone; it's you who is operating in extremes, so please nip this crap in the bud, okay? The average duo of people who today RvRs on regular basis (on certain classes) will absolutely destroy the average XPer group, and I won't even comment on the 4man. I am publicly offering to you that we test it.

We'll find 44+ people on /broad and offer them 10p if they win. I'll play Sorc in the duo if we're Albion, and I'll get some other char from a friend if it's in another realm.

Or does your "unretarded" XP group have to be all lvl 49s, all twinked to the max, and with a optimal RvR class and RA setup? All this while XPing? In the middle of a pull? Because even then they'll get rolled by less then a fg.

I killed a lvl 50 sb with my 35 nightshade and a 32 druid. Also killed a 50 ns with my 33 caby and 30 cleric...so, what zarkor said

Nymeros wrote:I'm sorry, but are you claiming this isn't linked to OF? Seriously?

My proposed changes would prove effective in NF aswell, that's how it's not necessarily linked to OF.

Nymeros wrote:As for the XPer rolling and such, I've said it already - we can test it. Plus I never used the word "retarded" for anyone; it's you who is operating in extremes, so please nip this crap in the bud, okay? The average duo of people who today RvRs on regular basis (on certain classes) will absolutely destroy the average XPer group, and I won't even comment on the 4man. I am publicly offering to you that we test it.

We'll find 44+ people on /broad and offer them 10p if they win. I'll play Sorc in the duo if we're Albion, and I'll get some other char from a friend if it's in another realm.

Or does your "unretarded" XP group have to be all lvl 49s, all twinked to the max, and with a optimal RvR class and RA setup? All this while XPing? In the middle of a pull? Because even then they'll get rolled by less then a fg.

Ok, so you claim you can kill level 44+ xpers in a duo, congratsulations, I have killed a 6man in a fg of lvl 45+ xpers in agarmon because we weren't retarded. We noticed the inc, pretended to pull while actually trying to bait them into attacking us, which worked, we just wiped em. I used to word retarded to address the fact that if the xpers are actually using their heads they can counter gankers to an extent. In a situation where a FG stands against a duo where the FG is cautious, the duo only stands a chance with a blanketmezz (which, I agree, will destroy the xpers). But a smart xp grp won't let themselves be blanketmezzed anyway.

It's all so situational that it's hardly worth discussing this anyway. Claiming straight-out facts about who wins is simply ridiculous. XPing will be at least as viable as it was in Agramon, after all, there's a lot more space for the xpers.

On top of that, having xpers in the frontiers is only a part of the suggestion, removing the BG and implementing the extra xp bonus per kill in the frontiers motivates these lvl 45+ players to group up -not only with other xpers, but also 50s- and actually RvR, rather than sit around xping waiting to be ganked. The removal of the BG creates this opportunity by providing similar enemies and allies for the players to group and fight with, whereas keeping the BG would completely cancel out this option because every RvR minded player will just go there instead, leaving no equal enemies to those who do decide to RvR in the frontiers.

Zarkor wrote: [............]
On top of that, having xpers in the frontiers is only a part of the suggestion, removing the BG and implementing the extra xp bonus per kill in the frontiers motivates these lvl 45+ players to group up -not only with other xpers, but also 50s- and actually RvR, rather than sit around xping waiting to be ganked. The removal of the BG creates this opportunity by providing similar enemies and allies for the players to group and fight with, whereas keeping the BG would completely cancel out this option because every RvR minded player will just go there instead, leaving no equal enemies to those who do decide to RvR in the frontiers.

Pardon Zarkor but you stated before that never happen that rvr population group newbie rvr player.. so why should they begin with this change?

Lornur wrote:Pardon Zarkor but you stated before that never happen that rvr population group newbie rvr player.. so why should they begin with this change?

Because there will be enemies which are killable even with lower level players. (Xpers, other lower level players/grps) On top of that, most of these grps will get started by lower level players because they want to RvR to XP. Some 50s will refuse to join such a group, some will join these groups more and more.

you just don't get the point... Trying to OP the PvE system with bonus etc. will not at all contribute to the end-game 50 RvR, the only thing you want to do by adding some bonus into the frontier is bring noobs so you can gank them with low rr group which is skilless and not fun at all... Increasing will allow you to xp faster, and what? having loads of toon and not being able to play them all cause you're either skilless on them or just not able to play emain cause you think it's boring? Or reroll braemar way easier?

1st of all, if the staff wish to keep more people in bgs 50, they should fix some basis of the game like rupt system, balance, ending class etc*. cause I actually know some guys that left due to that fact, getting bored over and over again after some broken promises.

Second, why so many people in thid/braemar instead of emain? this is lack of skills and you all know that...Don't tell me it's bored played from emain, cause I'll just laugh at you, if you're actually bored of emain is just cause you can't kill at all. Then, they don't enjoy 50 RvR cause they can't actually find their way into this: Getting ganked by high RR group etc. I agree it's hard, but that's the game, one day you will be the high rr ganking others. So again, just a lack of determination, cause I've seen some new guys to rvr motivated to LEARN and new guild getting out in the RvR and raping some group and having fun beginning like that even if it's hard to begin a low rank, I agree and this have been always like that, you won't change it today cause that's the game anyway. Don't think you can go emain and kill everything the 1st time you go there..

find solutions about how to improve there 2 points and you will suddenly increase the interest of many new comers and old players. But be realist, the staff prefer fixing PvE and keep adding new bgs which is useless anyway.

I understand that some player likes to PvE, some zerg etc. and I respect this, but don't tell me it's 95% of the pop. that likes this ******.

And if you actually don't enjoy fighting emain fairly, you just have a problem with skills or determination, so maybe you could consider about changing game, cause all my best fights and fun fights ever on uthgard were fairly done or when you are able to pwn 2fg with 8, or 6v8 for exemple (the way that only a minority prefer to play cause it's easier to go zerg and kill fun for the noobs). I don't bring solutions, but this is just ascertainment from my own experience from an old uthgard player.

Edit: if you really want to go RvR, getting your 1st 50 or your 2nd will not be a problem of PvE even if it is boring as hell, it's only a awful start to the end fun.

Mazh wrote:Second, why so many people in thid/braemar instead of emain? this is lack of skills and you all know that...Don't tell me it's bored played from emain, cause I'll just laugh at you, if you're actually bored of emain is just cause you can't kill at all. Then, they don't enjoy 50 RvR cause they can't actually find their way into this: Getting ganked by high RR group etc. I agree it's hard, but that's the game, one day you will be the high rr ganking others. So again, just a lack of determination, cause I've seen some new guys to rvr motivated to LEARN and new guild getting out in the RvR and raping some group and having fun beginning like that even if it's hard to begin a low rank, I agree and this have been always like that, you won't change it today cause that's the game anyway. Don't think you can go emain and kill everything the 1st time you go there..

I agree that you can describe it all as a lack of determination and skill. This is true, however, improving skill takes ages and if not tought by a good tutor can be demotivating enough to simply quit. That's why the majority of the casual players simply give up and I don't really blame them. They don't want to invest months of practice to actually have fun playing a game, that's hardly something to blame is it?

I underlined what i wanted to comment on specificly. On live, for years, there have been BGs only to level 35. People above that level would start RvRing at around level 40+. I agree that there might have been more noobs back then, but there also simply were a lot more non-50s in RvR, which gave these noobs a chance to kill enemies simply because of having a higher level or more allies in that fight (zergs anyone?). This is why they kept going out, it was fun to kill, even though it wasn't because of their skill. Oh they died allright, they died numerous times but they knew that they would get their kills here and there, which kept them going. So no, it has not always been like that, not by far.
By the time the new BGs came, the majority of the RvR crowd had buffbots, maximised gear and most likely high RR, which destroyed the game for the casual players who were still playing at that time and didn't want to zerg 24/7. The majority of these players got fed up with all this and quit DAoC (I used to be one of them). Slowly but surely, the system purged itself from this casual playstyle, and those who were left had no choice to try and keep up with the best, even though they could still join the zerg here and there.

To be honest, I rather be in a similar status of DAoC to how it was back then. This is probably also the reason why so many players are nostalgic about OF, or even Classic for that matter. It used to be so lively and accessible to those who didn't spend months to perfect their gear and play, it was just pure RvR instead of "we are not 8, I'm not going out like this"...

My proposal tries to spark the old way of RvRing with a modern touch, since people today are not as ignorant as they were in 2001-2003. They need to be guided in the right direction because they will simply follow the path of least resistance, which is, on this server, grinding BGs or quitting Uthgard.

When i started on server, I was lonely, then I've made a guild, but I was unskill cause there were no body to teach me, so I've been this PvE that involved to enjoy RvR addict cause I've met with some guy and wanted to learn more and more everyday. Nowadays, I try to give some tricks and advices to people I know they wish to learnt he game, as some people did with me. I cannot teach everyone for sure and I'm not perfect anyway and you must remember it's a game, but I did start at the same level as everyone and I like this game cause of the technical aspect of it. On the other side, if you like easy learning game, just go on WoW. This is why I don't play such a game by the way.

I also agree with you on the point where you must go classic, but with modern aspect cause even classic were not prefect on some points.

My proposed changes would prove effective in NF aswell, that's how it's not necessarily linked to OF.

No, they wouldn't. We had NF here and it worked perfectly fine. The only reason you're bringing this up is because of OF, I really don't understand the need to distance yourself from that and present this as some "always needed" and "universal" fix." It's neither of those things.

As for the XP groups, I rest my case. You have my offer, it doesn't even need to be me, we could pick the duo from random people running in Emain on any given prime-time night. If they manage to somehow win we can then talk about their XP/hour ratio, the fact that the duo will be back as a trio or will flag the XPers location on broad for fgs, how they only need to kill their healer to cripple them and provoke disbands, or a billion other things that you don't take into account at all.

"Zarkor" wrote:By the time the new BGs came, the majority of the RvR crowd had buffbots, maximised gear and most likely high RR, which destroyed the game for the casual players who were still playing at that time and didn't want to zerg 24/7. The majority of these players got fed up with all this and quit DAoC (I used to be one of them). Slowly but surely, the system purged itself from this casual playstyle, and those who were left had no choice to try and keep up with the best, even though they could still join the zerg here and there.

I will honestly try not to make a big deal of you insinuating that BG's (of _all_ things) have somehow ruined DAoC. I'll just say that they had absolutely NOTHING to do with this, except that they made Mythic realize just how badly people wanted to play differently then they were playing at the time, which lead to NF maps and keeps.

Zarkor wrote:(...) the path of least resistance, which is, on this server, grinding BGs or quitting Uthgard.

...

You do realise that, in your world, the path of LEAST resistance is LEVELING CHARACTERS TO 50 _REPETEADLY__ and then only being able to play them to 4L2?
...

All I can say is that any RvR system that can't withstand this sort of competition, and for which endless leveling provides the path of "least" resistance doesn't deserve to exist, no matter what it's called or in what year it originally existed.

Zarkor wrote:
I underlined what i wanted to comment on specificly. On live, for years, there have been BGs only to level 35. People above that level would start RvRing at around level 40+. I agree that there might have been more noobs back then, but there also simply were a lot more non-50s in RvR, which gave these noobs a chance to kill enemies simply because of having a higher level or more allies in that fight (zergs anyone?). This is why they kept going out, it was fun to kill, even though it wasn't because of their skill. Oh they died allright, they died numerous times but they knew that they would get their kills here and there, which kept them going. So no, it has not always been like that, not by far.
By the time the new BGs came, the majority of the RvR crowd had buffbots, maximised gear and most likely high RR, which destroyed the game for the casual players who were still playing at that time and didn't want to zerg 24/7. The majority of these players got fed up with all this and quit DAoC (I used to be one of them). Slowly but surely, the system purged itself from this casual playstyle, and those who were left had no choice to try and keep up with the best, even though they could still join the zerg here and there.

To be honest, I rather be in a similar status of DAoC to how it was back then. This is probably also the reason why so many players are nostalgic about OF, or even Classic for that matter. It used to be so lively and accessible to those who didn't spend months to perfect their gear and play, it was just pure RvR instead of "we are not 8, I'm not going out like this"...

My proposal tries to spark the old way of RvRing with a modern touch, since people today are not as ignorant as they were in 2001-2003. They need to be guided in the right direction because they will simply follow the path of least resistance, which is, on this server, grinding BGs or quitting Uthgard.

As much as i like your ideas and would love to see it to be like in the early days i have to say that it's just too late.

Uthgard is now at this time where the new bgs came and the main zone has mostly high rr players who play together for some time. Theres is no change in the setting that would help new players to compete in emain. Atm you can hardly compete with a rr5 pug so how you gonna do it with a non 50 one?

People are seeking too much perfection today in daoc. They rarely go out when one class is missing and you can't change the players mind.

Atm there is rarely any low rr pug emain cause you relly need alot of determination to do this against the groups that run nowadays. Chances to win a fair fight emain with a low rr pug are very few.

But it seems that people found some zones beside emain. Last days you see alot of the low groups in Jamtland/pennine etc. which is atm there only solution to get some non frustrating rvr.

Think a main reason why some people say that NF rvr on Uthgard was better is that there weren't so many high rr and strong groups out. RvR was more pug orientated and people run crappy setups. Was a bit like in the old days you described, but it had nothing to do with the setting or the map. When there was Anquish then the first high rr gankgroup here ( that i've seen in my 1,5 years here) you saw rarely any non-mids doing rvr. Even thoguh rvr was soooo much better with NF no one did rvr then