The usual 8on8 will find a Place to continue.
The steady Groups will survive and find RP and fights.
There will still be 8on8. I'm not worried at all about it.

But take a look, there has been many new Faces, and emain was indeed quite full.
So yes, it's just a start.
But a promising one.

Galno wrote:But take a look, there has been many new Faces.

Like i said before, there were no new faces on alb side. Not yesterday, not today.

well this is the thing that galno and his grp who start the zergs are ignoring.

they are claiming its to bring the casuals to rvr, yet all they are doing is zerging the guys already playing.. and less and less opponents are playing.

Neju wrote:they are claiming its to bring the casuals to rvr, yet all they are doing is zerging the guys already playing.. and less and less opponents are playing.

Exactly. Three days in a row now I've seen rvr destroyed in an hour because of the hibs zerging for no reason.

Not true at all.
It's not less and less opponents at all.
And it's not our fault if Albs and mids dont want to go together.

All I see is the same Players that argue with me here.
So, I know your Oppinion now, don't act like you can speak for anyone else then yourself.

Oh and btw, we did not organise anything today.
Go and start forming up in Alb + Mid !

Your Solution to open Endgame RvR is not exsistent, so stop complaining if anything actually get's done now.

Galno wrote:So, I know your Oppinion now, don't act like you can speak for anyone else then yourself.

A bit like you are doing for the so called casuals you want to involve in rvr?

Galno wrote:Your Solution to open Endgame RvR is not exsistent, so stop complaining if anything actually get's done now.

Great that you pulled out 20 people into rvr that otherwise wouldn't play there. But you forget the dozens of other people that log out, bored with gettings zerged?

Galno wrote:Not true at all.
It's not less and less opponents at all.
And it's not our fault if Albs and mids dont want to go together.

All I see is the same Players that argue with me here.
So, I know your Oppinion now, don't act like you can speak for anyone else then yourself.

Oh and btw, we did not organise anything today.
Go and start forming up in Alb + Mid !

Your Solution to open Endgame RvR is not exsistent, so stop complaining if anything actually get's done now.

The majority of the current most active End RVR players is FG RvR orientated. Why? Because they like that kind of playstyle.

The problem with your zergs is that they don't consist of a completely new player influx, but simply draw people out of the usual RvR because one FG simply can't compete with three.


I'm not saying your not helping casual end RvR in any way, I'm saying the cost is WAY too large considering the profit. A few new casual players on an extremely situational basis at the expense losing the possibility on an entire playstyle is never going to be a welcomed solution by everyone, especially not the people who enjoy that playstyle.

Zerg RvR is a form of casual RvR, which is why it attracts some of such players. However casual RvR is currently already existant on Uthgard, just not in end RvR. The goal is to have a mix of as many playstyles as possible IN end RvR, so elimating one for the other never is a good idea tbh. Not even temporarily.

Staff is fixing the issue. There's no need to rush things in an extremely unreliable way just to get marginal progess, while destrouing other players' only opportunity on their playstyle on Uthgard.

Yes, I get lot's of sends and heard many people, that unfortunatly not come IRC and won't post here. But oh well.
Sure some elite Players logged out because of it.

These are the same Players that killed everyone in so-called 'fair' 8on8 in Emain and made everyone else quit for months if not longer.

I can't help not feeling sorry for them at all.
They will survive it.

Galno wrote:Yes, I get lot's of sends and heard many people, that unfortunatly not come IRC and won't post here. But oh well.
Sure some elite Players logged out because of it.

These are the same Players that killed everyone in so-called 'fair' 8on8 in Emain and made everyone else quit for months if not longer.

I can't help not feeling sorry for them at all.
They will survive it.

Nobody ever stopped anyone for bringing as many as it takes to stand a chance against the enemies out there.

What you do however is chase away what's already out there or force them to join the 1 end RvR opportunity that's left. The zerg.


Stop claiming this is a good solution to anything. It isn't. The moment we have enough players in end RvR to sustain both FG aswell as zerg RvR I won't mind it one bit. But for now, destroying ANY playstyle, no matter whether YOU like it or not, is just exaggerated. Regular FG RvR is the least enforcing form of end RvR there currently is, because end RvR is the only place for these players to do so. If you want casual RvR, then do so, but don't pretend it's good to get it at the cost of other people's fun. Especially not when it's not even offering a real solution.


About surviving... just lol. They'll survive it by doing other things than end RvR for a long time untill they start x-realm organising their RvR in another zone that will be dead more often than not.

It's not about whether they'll survive or not, it's about those people's possibility to enjoy end RvR...

Zarkor wrote:It's not about whether they'll survive or not, it's about those people's possibility to enjoy end RvR...

Very much so, tonight, we grped up (even had a non 50! WOW), got rolled by hib zerg, grped up, no zerg to be seen, splitted and got added when we were in a decent 8vs8. After that we rolled a few fg's as a zerg ( read: KT grp, AE Dwa grp, 3 Warlords, every one of them are in rvr EVERY night, there were NO new faces whatsoever, noone i hadn't seen before helped zerg except everyone thats there enjoying even semi fair fights!). At least after that we could somewhat enjoy our prefered style of rvr.

Don't get me wrong, if you wanne inc with 12-14 vs an 8man (WHICH wasn't even unbeatable with low RR), go ahead. But ATM your just delirious thinking you'll get BGers out in emain because you have the casual population at your side. Make it semi fair, quit camping amg, otherwise you will just be run over by sticked high RR grps that died once (and every other day of the week) and are fed up with your nonsense.

Btw we were pretty fair towards the only hib grp not adding/zerging tonight, i hope you noticed TC

Rizla wrote:But ATM your just delirious thinking you'll get BGers out in emain because you have the casual population at your side.

Exactly so. People that prefer BG RvR over end RvR due to its current flaws arent going to miraculously drop whatever they've gotten theirselves into during all this time because of some occasional zerg in Emain that lasts untill the weakest realms are fed up with releasing without having a chance.

The only way you'll even get close to doing this is by offering these players the possiblity to play their character in a similar way as they do in BGs and enjoy doing so. Which basicly means in a way that they don't reqiure 7 decently skilled fulltemped/potted realm mates OR a handful to a FG of stealth colleagues to actually stand a chance in everyday end RvR. Raising that standard to 2FG+ players just this once and then, even though the fact that the skill and template factor is cancelled out by this is something in favor of casual RVR, it is NOT going to attract them on a steady reliable basis in any way.

There is still an incredible -and pretty much insurmountable for casual players- gap between BG and end RvR standards even when you zerg. The problem with this gap is that the only time you shrink it just a little is the time inbetween when the zerg is building and when the enemies aren't bored of getting rolled over yet, which is something none of the casual players individually can rely on. That's why it's not going to convince any of those casual BG players to give up their constant fun in BGs for a few RPs once or twice a week in end RvR.

Why would anyone want to do MORE effort (establishing zergs even though the already active end RvR population is opposed to it) to have MORE chance of getting less fun per hour they invest in DAoC than they currently have?

Indeed, they simply wouldn't. That's why zerging is neither the solution, nor worth continuing for the sake of casual RvR. It might look good in theory, but that theory is definately not applyable in the current Uthgard reality.

in all my time playing daoc 8vs8 provided me the most fun and i wish nothing more than doing this again.

on the other side there is nothing more frustrating to me than a 8men group complaining to a realmmate because he added "their" fight. on this server it came to a point where i felt this is no longer acceptable. when players start to wish cancer or death to other players because they dont play their playstyle then something has to be done. when i hear players that refuse to go out in rvr because they get called names if they attack a enemy then something is wrong. I remember the GM's allready stated in a post that they dont accept this behavior and asked to /appeal those indiviuals. noone is allowed to forbid you to attack a enemy !

what i dont understand about the 8men comunity is why they move allways to the hotspots with the most traffic while they could just move elsewhere. heck, if i drive on highway during primetime i gone find myself in a traffic-jam aswell. in emain you wont find a clean 8 vs 8 fight ever, the density of players is just to big.

the complainings about zerg and addings is as old as DaoC is. it will never change since the game is build that way.

3 months ago, hibernia had massive problems to get a playerbase that plays rvr. players complained about imbalance issues and they where frustrated that they permanently are beeing rolled bad by OPed mids. when i started my rvr career in hib with my druid and joined the group that was forming at DL the first thing i heard was kick this druid we cant move with such a spec. i was like WOAW they rather wait 30 more minutes than run with my spec, on the other side the same players refused to join TS because "at this playtime TS isnt necessary!" finaly they ran with me (without TS) and i learned how fast a hib group can die to a mid or alb group. it wasnt hard for me to understand why players rather go to BG's than beeing part of such a rvr.

when i leveled my druid i meet stip (on his hero), he a oldtimer on uthgard but mainly leveling or playing in BG's. I told him i would like to try castersetup in hib and he said ok give it a try he got a enchanter. so we decided to go different ways (well i know there where other castergroups earlier) on forming a rvr group. try new combinations of classes and setups, runing nature druid, runing void eld, and many other crazy ideas. some where not successfull some where, and we improved verry fast. and with us the whole realm because we did include the realm on what we did. now after 3 months blademasters in rvr are rare and even the imba mids get crushed by hibcastergroups. i dont think this is because of the animist patch since we rarely have the chance to get one runig with us. there was a change in players mentality how to build a group. oh and even those players that wanted me to be kicked because of my crazy druid spec have now a druid speced like i am and are runing castergroup.

yes, now hibernia got the relics but this is the side effect of the changes that happened since 3 months. at same time the midgard numbers droped. i hope that gona change again and more midgardians be motivated to rvr again. i remember when i played mid we allways hoped to find more hibs since they where almost not existent. now hibs are back with changed tactics and the enemies have to adapt theirs.

In my view when one relam is more successfull than the other, the loosing side allways claim IMBALANCE or ZERGERS instead of improving themself either by tactics or numbers. and sorry if you call a player a morron because he touched a enemy wont make him help you the next time when you need his assistance.

Zarkor wrote:They can't do it because the majority of the casual players (= majority of total RvR players) doesn't even keep an eye on IRC.

Fact! thats why i was talking about the ppl that are keeping an eye on IRC , instead of QQ /q they can tell each other to switch over to another zone ,..
this doesnt violate the IRC rules, and actually they are already asking "if they run or building up" ,.. at least i got asked

actually i dont know how you could get that wrong ^^

about the 8vs8 guys...
they shouldnt try to convince everyone that 8vs8 is the only way to go...
they shouldnt try to tell all players that cant compete in 8vs8 to stop trying to participate in end game RvR or "learn to play" !
they shouldnt insult/harass players that add/zerg because
1) its against server rules
2)

Zarkor wrote: Forcing people to play a game in a certain way will never ever provide a durable solution to anything.

(we dont force the "8vs8 guys" to join,.. since there are more zones than just emain and they can communicate via IRC, which casual players mostly dont)
(the larger amount of players determines the kind of RvR situation, which actually isnt the case at the moment!) as you agree here:

Zarkor wrote: the majority of the casual players (= majority of total RvR players)

3)

Zarkor wrote:The end RvR population is currently way too low on Uthgard because it filters out most casual players back to the BGs/PvE

you now will come up with this:

Zarkor wrote:Oh and this is NOT caused by the 8v8 mentality, but by the setting. You see when a setting cancels out certain playstyles because they just aren't interesting enough, you will end up with what's left (in this case 8v8 mentality). So really, it's the setting that creates the end RvR population, not the players.

agree. its the setting that created it , ... 8vs8 mentality supports it/ keeps it up....

Zarkor wrote:There aren't enough people in end RvR, no. If all BG campers would zerg, then sure, things would be better since the amount of end RvR players would drasticly increase.

which we are trying to establish at primetimes on weekends (since there are the most (casual) players online)

so everyone on every realm that actually wants to participate in end game RvR: feel gladly invited to join in...
especially on mid/alb since we can just promote it on hib side....

in addition to that ,.. for sure , gms can make some setting changes ,.
but this problem is existing now for way tooooo long, and thats our reaction on what GMs said:
only the players can change RvR situation ,.. at least we can try !

Zarkor wrote:However the fact that the setting filters out these players does lead to a situation where 8v8 players and mentalities dominate, which doesn't help solve the situation either.

So, you partly agree?

Zarkor wrote:What I find most annoying is the misconception that the 8v8 mentality is the CAUSE for end RvR to be like this, while in fact it's a RESULT of what's actually causing it.

i didnt say that ,.. and if i did ,.. for sure i was wrong,...
BUT: 8vs8 mentality more harms than helps with this problem,..

Zarkor wrote:Zergs are a way out indeed, but in order to establish them you need the player base for them

we got the player base for it --- as you said ,.. they re in the BG or PVE
just stop blaming them for destroying RvR ! / we are currently trying to get PVEer/BG players to participate in end game RvR
if now the 8vs8 guys keep cutting them down ,.. for sure ,.. there is no chance and we gotta wait till GMs make some setting changes

sure , if im in a strong fg and my fg vs. fg fight gets added i dislike it , but i will of course keep my mouth shut and not blame them for destroying RvR/insult/harass them, if i actually want more players in end game RvR

Epecially i think its very weird/ridiculous that the same people that complain about people adding on fights are adding on my fg vs. fg fights in order to finish their mission (to gain rps , allthough they dont got any problem with it)
and then we or I recieve the flame on IRC (not that i really care much about)

BUT:
YOU just cant expect to get ANY respect, when blaming someone for a specific acting, when you re acting completly the same way
why should i not add groups that add my grp when fighting ???
why do those "we never add in order to archieve fair fights" kill solos? fg vs solo isnt fair aswell
now dont tell me: "cause the might/will add anyway"
(most better organised groups can handle few solos adding without any problems, if you dont, i'd say: L2P! xD )
why do FGs complain about zergs when they "zerg" solos all time?
cause everyone does? , well almost everyone adds as far as i saw that ,.. so why shouldnt i do then?
or do i have to out myself as a non adder on IRC first in order to not getting added?
lol this would be really discriminating for all casual players that build pugs and are not on IRC

Zarkor wrote:I don't believe you can make a reall long-term difference when zergs are artificially organised like raids.

actually i think , if you artificially organize zergs at specific weekday/times regularly, once established a regular behaviour, it will keep up without any need/effort of oraganisation!
if you smoke,.. you know about , this is how humans work
if you keep blaming casual players for adding/zerging/desroying RvR ,.. for sure thats one more reason to dont go there again !
and btw a weekend emain zerg would NOT destroy the 8vs8 fights,..
those guys just had to use IRC for something else but flaming [ would not vialote the IRC rules afaik, if you do it (b)right ]

Panche wrote:Hibs start with 2-3 fgs kill mids, mids form 3-fgs and whipe hib zerg then hibs either try to get more or log. The wait time itself to form a zerg then run all the way to emain to fight another zerg alone isn't going to keep casuals playing, they will log.

agree,... imo thats a completly wrong way to start it ,.. groups should just run when they re ready , but act in the "Realm vs. Realm" manner, to achieve a more friendly enviroment for casual players + get some epic battles...
make a RvR info BG ,.. and call your location at beginning of that inc ,.. so realm mate groups may arrive in time...to safe you , to fight the enemies back and rezz dead realm mates

Gil wrote:Well, Staff has told us they are working on ways to make OF more fun. Cool, but in the meantime the players CAN do something. Get off yer ALTs and go RvR. (or just come to these forums to complain?)

Yes we can ! at least TRY ,...

to ALL that actually wanna participate in end game RvR, i please you to give it a try at weekends (primetime) ; build Pugs and act as a realm
(im not saying: zerg the enemies to RL/outnumber as many enemies as possible)

Rizla wrote:Manage your zergs in the realm of possibility and ppl might consider actually trying to fight you. It's one of the things i liked about DG, they were often more then 8, but as holsten said, not the perfect setup. When there is a 24 ppl zerg at AMG ( thats without rangers ), there is just no use to move from APK.

Yes, the hib zerg was a bit too big,.. agree... but why the hell did the albs came with 1fg all 3min? instead of waiting 5-10min to come with 3 fg? , or at least 2 ? ,..
albs kept comming with 1 fg ,.. 5times? 10times? i dont understand that , sorry ,... Snan even gave the info in IRC about hibs still camping at amg ,... so why?

When there are 2ppl camping the horseroute , and hibs go ride solo again and again ,.. its completly the same ,... but finally hibs learned to call for help on /broad

vangonaj wrote:Im totaly agree with you. Daoc was designed for zerg, i have the real fun in epic battles, but equals.

YES, more equal numbered epic battles plz !!! (at least at 1-2 days a week, when its possible) totally agree

Rizla wrote:

Galno wrote:But take a look, there has been many new Faces.

Like i said before, there were no new faces on alb side. Not yesterday, not today.

So you are claiming there were firewizards and friars playing in end game RvR already?
im pretty sure i saw Loming,..not just one time ,.. too bad the alb elite groups let them run alone into death,... if those other 2 elite groups just came with them you could have had a real chance...
same with new mids ,.. there were mid names today i ve never seen before , not 1 or 2 ,.. quite some...

Tobletwo wrote:Exactly. Three days in a row now I've seen rvr destroyed in an hour because of the hibs zerging for no reason.

today i read in hib /broad : "5fg albs leaving atk"
then we formed up groups for relic defense,..
no zerg inced at relics ,..

then i read on /broad: 3fg mids running together in emain
so then the hibs went to emain...

Galno wrote:So, I know your Oppinion now, don't act like you can speak for anyone else then yourself.

hehe sure he/they keep doing ,... today mentha even claimed the IRC channel is a representiv source for the whole uthgard-community's opinion about zergs!

Maidrion wrote:Great that you pulled out 20 people into rvr that otherwise wouldn't play there. But you forget the dozens of other people that log out, bored with gettings zerged?

have you ever cared about Pugs/casual players having no fun/logging out/rerolling their xx toon?
no.
have the leet 8vs8 guys the possibility to simply switch zone?
yes.

and if it was really 20 ppl ,..i d say : WOW!!!
thats great!! for just 2-3 days
imagine what happens in 2-3month!!!

Zarkor wrote:Nobody ever stopped anyone for bringing as many as it takes to stand a chance against the enemies out there.

totally wrong,.. if you add/zerg you re blamed for killing RvR, you get insulted!
this i fact ,.. and this leads these players to feel NOT welcome in RvR.

Zarkor wrote:What you do however is chase away what's already out there or force them to join the 1 end RvR opportunity that's left. The zerg.

just wrong, again,.... or did the solo RvR which was established in Odins kill the 8vs8 fights in emain aswell?
again: if its getting too zergy... just leave to another zone...

forcing casual players to do RvR with 8vs8 only keeps them away from end game RvR,..or at least is one more reason to not try again!
if zerg action goes on, on 1-2days a week ,.. do you really think they would stop playing??? seriously?
i know (proof: just talk to them) that casual players dont like to build up pugs , cause they dont have any chance anway ,..
i just had a 20min talk to a guildmate that just showed me how right this thesis is...
and i know from my past time trying to participate in end game RvR
and i know from lots of other players i talked to ....
sure the common 8vs8 player cant know that ,... cause they dont even talk to them...cause for them they re just noobs ,... right?
as in Xuji's sig: You're either pro or you're n00b. That's life.
well maybe you are one of the few exceptions Zarkor,...

Zarkor wrote:If you want casual RvR, then do so, but don't pretend it's good to get it at the cost of other people's fun. Especially not when it's not even offering a real solution.

do i really need to search for the post in that you said there is no casual end game RvR existing?
and again ,.. its not on the cost of other peoples fun, if they dont wanna counter zerg ,... change zone ,..
you claim its not offering a solution?
we claim it offers one!
can anyone of us proof it?
no.
so we try it out.
ant btw:

Zarkor wrote:Zergs are a way out indeed, but in order to establish them you need the player base for them.

which we got in PvE and BGs

Zarkor wrote:About surviving... just lol. They'll survive it by doing other things than end RvR for a long time untill they start x-realm organising their RvR in another zone that will be dead more often than not.

this "x-realm-organising" in this form is already a common thing ,.. not with location/numbers ,..but an info if they/you run or not,..
and i BET ,.. its not forbitten to just write "odins" in IRC #uthgard when its getting zergy ,.. and all of the 8vs8 guys would know what that does mean!
it will be 100% no problem if this doesnt cause problems aswell:

[23:08] <[S|TC]Snan> the hibs camping amg btw

Zarkor wrote:

Galno wrote:And btw, seems like while i was away today there already is lots of Action in Emain atm, so .. seems to be working to me.

What exactly do you mean with "seems to be working"?

If you mean zergs could bring out new faces, then I'll agree. However take a look at what happened. All you really did was eliminate the usual single FG RvR and replace it with zerging, which was bringing out a relatively small amount of new players at the cost of the usual steady '8v8' action.

There's no way you can call this a long-term solution to be honest. Besides briefly attracting a handful of new players by switching one playstyle into another, there is nothing done to create a self-sustaining attractiveness to casual RvR.

Especially and only on long term on regular times and weekdays this will have positive effects.

Feelit wrote:

Zarkor wrote:

Galno wrote:And btw, seems like while i was away today there already is lots of Action in Emain atm, so .. seems to be working to me.

What exactly do you mean with "seems to be working"?

If you mean zergs could bring out new faces, then I'll agree. However take a look at what happened. All you really did was eliminate the usual single FG RvR and replace it with zerging, which was bringing out a relatively small amount of new players at the cost of the usual steady '8v8' action.

There's no way you can call this a long-term solution to be honest. Besides briefly attracting a handful of new players by switching one playstyle into another, there is nothing done to create a self-sustaining attractiveness to casual RvR.

Especially and only on long term on regular times and weekdays this will have positive effects.

In my time in Uthgard i meet and lost many players/friends cause of 8 vs 8 mentality, last months we can do 2 fg vs 2 fg+ on emain but albs rather die vs a zerg on amg than join forces and have a good battles versus them.

Many people went to emain , just dinged 50, done bg and crafted only to be owned by high rank guild grps over and over, and albs ( its en example) did nothing to join new people , they have their premade grps of friends ( normal, of course) and dont want to change it, they have fun in 8 vs 8, they are high rank and fight vs strong enemies, but new ppl, pugs, or small clans cant have fun with this system , they need big battles to grow in rank, or will happen like i see over and over, people leave the game or stay forever in BGS, leavin emain or "endgame" rvr like many people says to same people...

Only check albs grps doing emain "8vs8" they are allways the same ones.. the rest are killed 2-3 tiems and log, move to bg, and after some weeks they leave, and repeat.