Splitquick wrote:It seems like the bonus was cut to about 1/4 or a 1/5, when it should have been 1/2.

The pool was not "nerfed". A bug was fixed which falsely rewarded each player a wrong amount of RPs.
Without that bug you would have never seen the higher reward values.

Oh, also, Vadox. I forgot, on your idea for defenders dying and not receiving a defense bonus. I see both sides of it. The devs want to reward the winner, whoever took or defended the keep. But on the other hand, if your group is defending the keep, kills 5 attackers of the 30 there, but you die in the end. Sure you got the RPs for the 5 kills but in the scheme of things still probably felt pointless. What if when you released, you were rewarded, say half or a third of the normal pool as an "honorable death" reward. One of the problems I see IS people logging/jumping/suiciding to avoid giving the enemy RPs. If you got some bonus RP for defending, maybe those people would stay in the keep to the bitter end.

I stay to the bitter end every time, not because I think we'll win, not because I think we're gonna hold you off. But because eventually... enough of you will get scared to charge in when that door flies open, even if it's only 5 of us inside. Because the first one or two of you through that door are going to die.

I'll see you on the battlefield friend. /salute

Genjiro wrote:

Splitquick wrote:It seems like the bonus was cut to about 1/4 or a 1/5, when it should have been 1/2.

The pool was not "nerfed". A bug was fixed which falsely rewarded each player a wrong amount of RPs.
Without that bug you would have never seen the higher reward values.

I understand the bonus was implemented incorrectly and those values were fixed. I didn't say it was 'nerfed'. I simply feel when comparing the pre and post fix, I think about half of what was being received would have been fair in comparison to the corrected values.

Again, you did not receive the intended value before the fix.
This wrong reward can't be used to compare to "what should have been".

You now see the correct values based on the keeps built up pool and player count receiving the reward.

Splitquick wrote:I understand the bonus was implemented incorrectly and those values were fixed. I didn't say it was 'nerfed'. I simply feel when comparing the pre and post fix, I think about half of what was being received would have been fair in comparison to the corrected values.

This really depends how many players died on both sides. Each death fills up the pool. And in the end it depends on how many players are still around and get the pool. For a heavy fight with 50 deaths in sum that would be somewhat around 30% of 900 = 300 RP x 50 = 15000 RP. If there are 20 players left after that fight they would see 750 RP each one. As it was said its the original implementation Mythic created and we will see what we do with it. We can modify the logic as needed.

Blue wrote:

Splitquick wrote:I understand the bonus was implemented incorrectly and those values were fixed. I didn't say it was 'nerfed'. I simply feel when comparing the pre and post fix, I think about half of what was being received would have been fair in comparison to the corrected values.

This really depends how many players died on both sides. Each death fills up the pool. And in the end it depends on how many players are still around and get the pool. For a heavy fight with 50 deaths in sum that would be somewhat around 30% of 900 = 300 RP x 50 = 15000 RP. If there are 20 players left after that fight they would see 750 RP each one. As it was said its the original implementation Mythic created and we will see what we do with it. We can modify the logic as needed.

So do all player deaths add to this pool for all realms that is given out? So an Alb death at a keep we successfully defend would in turn give me RP from the pool that his death added to when we defend the keep? That doesn't seem right.

If you mean only one realm fills up the pool separately, (Alb attacker deaths fill up the "defense" pool of a mid keep, Mid defenders would receive this pool. Mid defender deaths build up the "attacker" pool, Alb attackers(or hib) would receive this pool if they take the keep.) (This is kind of how I assumed it would work)

I wondered how the bonus would work on this scenario: We (Albs) attack a Hib owned keep. No hibs come to defend, but Mids come to try to backdoor us and take the keep from us. We kill the mids in the courtyard, then take the hib keep. Do we receive a bonus? This scenario happened but most ran to just outside the range where it says (you have left the keep), but we didn't receive a bonus after taking the keep.(See comments earlier about increasing range on where deaths are added to pool and chasing down attackers/defenders)

In either case, if you're saying 50, say mids, die while attacking our relic, and there's 20 albs left to get that bonus, we would get 750 RP? If that's the case that's what I'm saying would need substantially increased. (assuming 40 alb defenders would get 375 RP each) If 40 players defend a relic/keep from 50 players, i would think each one should receive anywhere from 1400-2k RP from something of that magnitude) Using those values, a keep defended from 20 players by 20 players, would give a 700-1000RP bonus), and 10 players defending a keep from 10 players would receive 350-500 RP bonus)

Also Blue, honestly I wish there was some kind of check in place to see who was at the keep when the siege started, and who was there at the end when the Lord is killed and the bonus is given out. The later they arrive to the siege, the less of the pool they should receive %-wise. One of the main... 'issues' we had in Alb and I'm sure Hib/Mid have too, was groups who 'hover' nearby the keep, killing incs while we do all the work on the keep. But,they 'dont't pve'. Then, when the inner door is falling, they swoop into range and soak up RP. Not only splitting the pool with them for not doing any work, but they also would receive all the RPs for any inc stragglers coming to defend the keep.

Again, these are just my observations, I'm not crusading for changes, I appreciate that you guys are making what mostly everyone agrees are positive changes that are good for the health of the server overall.

Splitquick wrote:
So do all player deaths add to this pool for all realms that is given out? So an Alb death at a keep we successfully defend would in turn give me RP from the pool that his death added to when we defend the keep? That doesn't seem right.

Yes, all deaths in range of the keep are added

I wondered how the bonus would work on this scenario: We (Albs) attack a Hib owned keep. No hibs come to defend, but Mids come to try to backdoor us and take the keep from us. We kill the mids in the courtyard, then take the hib keep. Do we receive a bonus? This scenario happened but most ran to just outside the range where it says (you have left the keep), but we didn't receive a bonus after taking the keep.(See comments earlier about increasing range on where deaths are added to pool and chasing down attackers/defenders)

You must be in range (You have entered Caer Benowyc) for it to count

Also Blue, honestly I wish there was some kind of check in place to see who was at the keep when the siege started, and who was there at the end when the Lord is killed and the bonus is given out. The later they arrive to the siege, the less of the pool they should receive %-wise. One of the main... 'issues' we had in Alb and I'm sure Hib/Mid have too, was groups who 'hover' nearby the keep, killing incs while we do all the work on the keep. But,they 'dont't pve'. Then, when the inner door is falling, they swoop into range and soak up RP. Not only splitting the pool with them for not doing any work, but they also would receive all the RPs for any inc stragglers coming to defend the keep.

Fair or not players are helping the realm by killing enemies. I'm not sure you can be mad at someone for helping their realm, if it isn't to your liking. Excluding your realm mates seems a bit selfish.

Abydos wrote:Fair or not players are helping the realm by killing enemies. I'm not sure you can be mad at someone for helping their realm, if it isn't to your liking.

Who said I was mad? I actually really don't have an issue with them doing the hover, as long as the lines of communication are open and we have intel, I'm satisfied. But it's a constant point of animosity that's always being brought up, especially when people out in RvR experience a group do it the first time. And the reward doesn't fit the effort, especially not sharing it.

Abydos wrote:Excluding your realm mates seems a bit selfish.

In that same vein, isn't leaving your realmmates to take the keep on their own (and before guard respawn was fixed, that extra group actually would mean the difference between a wipe or not), then come in at the last second to literally take RPs from those who did the work for the actual keeptake, selfish? If the RPs were given out as a constant (all players received the same amount) and it weren't divided up, I'd see your point. But, as it is, that scenario they literally put in no effort of the actual keeptake (which correct me if I'm wrong is what RPs are given for on Lord death, the keeptake, not killing incs to the keep or roaming around), but come in to not only reap the reward, but take part of it from their realmmates. That's basically the definition of selfish.

I'd hope you're playing devil's advocate and not really just immediately jumping to that conclusion about effort/reward, because I thought the entire point of the changes was rewarding effort and time put in. The actual keeptake rewards were intended to reward effort put in on the keep itself. Killing the guards, opening the doors, and killing the lord. Those hovering around should be rewarded for RPs in the form of incs that they catch/kill, it was their choice to do so. Those taking the keep should be rewarded for the RPs meant to reward the keeptake.

If this is your train of thought on this, then any defenders killed on their way to the keep, should have their RPs shared among the group that killed the incoming defenders, as well as the group taking the keep. Right? Since that group wouldn't of had those defenders inc if it weren't for those taking the keep. I'm sure the group hovering outside wouldn't mind sharing their RPs with those taking the keep. I mean, if they didn't, that would be... selfish.

Ok Splitquick, my proposal is to make a count on each player around the keep and increase that count when a kill happens which fills up the pool. So when players arrive late and the fight is nearly over they will have a low credit counter. That would solve your problem. The ones with higher count get more from pool than the ones who weren't there all the time.

Killed 9 on renaris last night after fix. I checked changelog bonus rps for arsenal inc ! But alas no bonus rps. Then half the mids on server went ld. Working as intended

interesting got a defensive tick in Thidranki BG earlier today for defending a keep vs some albs, wasnt much but it still gives BG keeps some meaning to take/defend/siege now.

Blue wrote:Ok Splitquick, my proposal is to make a count on each player around the keep and increase that count when a kill happens which fills up the pool. So when players arrive late and the fight is nearly over they will have a low credit counter. That would solve your problem. The ones with higher count get more from pool than the ones who weren't there all the time.

I think that's a great idea that would balance effort involved and seems very fair.

@blue, @split and @co
it's called OVERTHINKING. Blue, anything on a timer is a bad idea, if person lds or some other factor that we can't even think of right now prevent player from getting bonus - you will hear it here and it won't be pretty. There are so many combinations and permutations that can go wrong, if keep is under attack because some stealther keeps shooting at doors, or new enemy showed up and killed defenders, maybe different realm or maybe new defenders showed up at some point or who knows what.

make it simple, the simpler - the better. each kill give some percentage bonus to defenders. give some bonus right away, you can come up with something that is fair, some simple formula. again, making it on a timer - complex, many chances of not working properly, plus, i would assume you need to keep track of the counts and so on which means server has to store, recalculate etc.

simple, Blue, make it simple.

now that i said it: we lding now daily. coincidence or it is just me?

vadox: You forget that you are only eligible to get the pool on success. The winner takes it all. I like the system so far and its even live like If we do my proposal above is not so clear. There are different opinions about that.

Blue, we keep lding...
please advise!