Please take your time to read it if you're interested, if not, you can kindly ****** off with comments such as TL;DR, wall-o-text QQ and whatever. I've put a lot of my time and effort in this thing so I expect you do at least some effort or simply shut up.

I know it's a fcking long post and reading it takes time on itself, but there's really no other way if you want to fully clarify the entire problem and its hows and whys.


Thanks for your understanding.




Table of content:

I. What is the problem?
... a) Which of the 2?
... b) What's the actual problem?
... c) Why is it a problem?

II. What is causing this problem?
... a) Player mentality forming the Uthgard reality.
... b) Cause of the player mentality.
......... 1. Personal preferance.
......... 2. Game setting.

III. What is the solution?
... a) What needs to be changed?
......... 1. The status of OF.
......... 2. The BGs.
... b) How will such a change work?

IV. Sidenotes
... a) Why is the Emain reality not compatible with casual RvR?
......... 1. Emain RvR reality.
......... 2. Casual RvR.
... b) And Agramon?




I. What is the problem?

a) Which of the 2?

There are currently 2 major problems related to the game setting the way it currently is on Uthgard. They have a way larger impact on the RvR gameplay experience than any other bug or missing feature around.

The first one is realm balance and the completely inappropriate tank - balance relation caused by the combination of the classic aspect and NF RAs.

The second one is the playstyle possibilities in general. This is what this post is all about.


b) What's the actual problem?

The problem is that there is currently no possibility to play end RvR in a casual way, which turns BGs (and partially DF) to become the only possible place for this type of RvR.

What this means is that end RvR currently only has two viable options: either join a stealthgrp or join an 8slot or more.
By viable I'm talking about having an entertaining time RvRing without being fed up with it for good after 1 hour due to the situations.


c) Why is it a problem?

This situation is a severe problem because it has an extremely negative impact on the end RvR population and a malfunctioning BG system.

-> The current state narrows down end RvR so badly that there is no possibility to do anything else than 8v8 or stealthzerg. End RvR fails for a large portion of players. This has never been the case on live nor has it ever been the intention. Not even from the Uthgard staff afaik.

-> The BGs pick up the only possibility left to play RvR casually. This way end RvR creates a situation where the players that prefer end RvR over BGs, but casual RvR over 8v8/stealthzerg are forced to pick BGs as their source of entertainment because it's the only way to find reasonable casual RvR (except for zerging, which is no durable solution as I've explained in former posts). This is a very large group, probably the largest group there is when it comes to RvR since also 8v8 players have moments where they can not form up an 8man grp and just want to play their characters without that.

-> So instead of enjoying their free time in a situation where they can reach the max of their character, they are forced to play in an area where character improvement is restricted and where they can't even remain as long as they want to. End RvR never had and should never have such an impact on what BGs have become and on the general RvR population.


In general this means that there is a huge amount of players being driven out of end RvR because the playstyle they are after is currently a pure waste of time.
Driven out to where? Mainly BGs. They become the replacement for casual end RvR.




II. What is the cause of this problem?

a) Player mentality forming the Uthgard reality.

Ironically, the problem described above would be solved if ALL the players who WOULD play casual end RvR, actually go out and play casual end RvR all at the same time. The fact that they would, would make it exist. We saw this very briefly when there was an incentive through the forum to go to Odin's. Of course, this didn't last, because the incentives didn't last. Without solid and reliable incentives, you won't be able to create a solid and reliable mentality.

So what is preventing players from doing so properly?
Mentality and incentives.

The current mentality is actually holding back players to go out to try and do casual end RvR. This leads to a reality where casual end RvR is inexistant. Just think about it.

Why do people not run out in smallman/solos in Emain? -> You get rolled way too easy, the standard there is too high for casual RvR players. (= solid incentive not to go there as a casual player, leading to a 8v8 mentality in Emain)
Why do people not run out in different zones then? -> Different zones are dead. (= solid incentive not to go there, leading to a solid mentality that casual RvR is not worth it beyond the BGs)
Why are they dead? -> Because nobody goes there.
Why does nobody go there? -> Because they're dead.
Why... ? -> Because...
Etc etc etc...

Indeed, the current mentality and incentives are only preventing themselves from establishing casual end RvR. That way they are determing the Uthgard reality.


b) Cause of the player mentality.

As you might have noticed, the player mentality is formed by the combination of incentives that are apparent to the players. As long as you have solid incentives, you will be able to create a solid mentality.

What's then to be investigated is what's influencing these incentives, what the cause is for these incentives to be the way they are.

Incentives are determined by 2 factors:
1. personal preferance
2. game setting

1. Personal preferance: this will determine what the player enjoys most when playing DAoC. It varies for all players, but many players can have a similar preferance when it comes to a certain aspect of DAoC.

Example: Making money by crafting: some will decide to do spellcrafting because they can get a lot of money for a big effort while some will pick alchemy because they want to get small amounts of profit per turn with a rather small amount of effort to do so.
Both of these options are viable and there's no real reason to why one is actually the best way to gain money fast. It depends more on a lot of things that can't be controlled. (amount of customers, time available, ...)

2. Game setting: As you can see from the example above, game setting has a small impact when there are no clear advantages to a various amount of choices. Personal preferance will decide what the player will spend time on a lot more than the game setting.
However, things are a lot different when it comes to aspects where the game setting has a bigger impact on the advantages and disadvantages of certain choices.

Example: A grp of xpers at level 18: They decide to go to a decent camp in the mainland to benefit from their campfires to reduce downtime. Spots in the frontier are barely any good due to not being able to use campfires and the lack of decent camps. The 5% bonus is arguably not weighing up to the benefits they have in the mainland.
Suddenly DF opens. Everyone in the group agrees to go there instead. When DF opened, the game setting heavily changed the possible reward/effort ratio (advantages) for the players and so succesfully influenced their decision to go there instead of what they were doing before.


Conclusion:
Personal preferance sets the general goal of the players and will determine the eventual choice in situations with equal reward/effort ratio, however the decision will get overruled by differences in reward/effort ratio caused by the game setting.

The combination of these factors creates the incentives that are apparent to the player, which then form the general player mentality, which leads to a certain reality.


If we apply this to the problem, we see the following: players that prefer casual RvR will chose BGs because the reward/effort ratio is endlessly better in BGs than it is in end RvR. If not only because casual RvR is close to inexistant in end RvR. The 2 factors create a very strong incentive to go to BGs for casual RvR, leading a mentality (and thus reality) where 8v8 is the only end RvR.
If casual end RvR DID exist, the choice would be a lot less obvious and a lot more players would possibly prefer end RvR over BG RvR due to several reasons that will be discussed later on.




III. What is the solution?

a) What needs to be changed?

Judging from the former section, we know that the problem is the mentality, which is formed by game setting and personal preferance. As we all know, personal preferance is something you can not possibly change. This leaves us with the need to change the other influencial aspect: game setting.

To find a succesful long-term solution you need to change the game setting to support such a solution. Especially if the current setting is preventing one and even making things worse.

There are 2 main elements in the current setting which cause the main incentives for players to act the way they act now. These are the ones that should be altered so that they support a solid OF player influx.


1. The status of OF.
As we all know: OF is empty outside Emain, or at least empty enough to stop players from wasting their time looking for enemies. This is a very important element of the current issue. It effectively prevents players from going out for whatever reason, which leads to a solid emptyness in OF outside of Emain.

The only way to break this routine is by adding incentives for people to go there, so that people who want to encounter other players will go there aswell because they know that they will find them without hours of searching.

2. The BGs.
The BGs are doing their job to further increase the depth of this issue. Because of the first element (dead OF), attraction towards BGs automaticly grows. Add to that the fact that an entire playstyle is inexistant due to OF being dead outside of Emain and you will see a severe influx of players who want casual RvR to the BGs.

The other aspect that is in favor of keeping this problem alive is that the current BGs offer a very similar environment in which players can casually RvR compared to end RvR when it comes to character improvement. The difference between level 49 4L0 and level 50 5L0 is neglectable, which leads to another further increase from players from end RvR to BGs.

If you solve the issue with the first element (create incentives for players to go to zones outside of Emain), you will still struggle to break the mentality of the players since most will still just do what they are used to do. Most of them still have the though of "empty OF" in the back of their heads and will keep acting like that for a long time before they realise they have another option. Not to mention many of them will remain in BGs regardless due to the striking similarity between BG and end RvR.


So we have a problem that's defined by 1 OF aspect and a 2 sided BG aspect. However, none of these are causing the problem on their own. They are both cooperating to keep this problem in place.

The important thing about this is that you will not create a succesful long-term solution by solving only one of the aspects that's defining the entire problem.

To fix the entire problem, you need a thorough approach to solve all aspects of the problem.



b) How will such a change work?

We know now what aspects need to be changed to solve the problem. The question remains how exactly they will solve the problem? What is the specific goal for each aspect to support the solution?

The general reasoning behind the solution is the following: Solid OF PvE player activity creates an incentive for players to go out in search for RvR. This causes a double player influx, PvE and RvR. Eventually this will lead to a further increase of the general player activity in OF due to the fact that there is action (PvE and RvR players), creating a self sustaining solid long-term solution to casual end RvR.


I'll explain this per aspect:

1. The status of OF.
As we know, the problem here is that it's empty, which is preventing players from populating it. This leads to a simple goal to solve this part of the problem: populate OF. If you manage to populate OF with players (RvR or PvE), you will effectively create an incentive for other players to go there (RvR).

The problem is you can not effectively create a solid long-term incentive for players to RvR there because you would need a miraculous increase of players for almost no reason at all except for that there are other players, which is not the case at the moment.

This leaves us to one more possibility to populate OF: PvE players. The good thing about populating OF with PvE players is that they will always provide a basic OF activity if you do it right. They create a solid long-term incentive for any other player to go out and roam the zones because it is generally known that a lot of players XP in OF.
An additional rather important factor that is needed for casual RvR is the low player standard that allows for a larger amount of players to be succesful and thus enjoying their time is the fact that PvE players barely set any standard, whereas level 49 or 50 RR 4L2 already create a standard that is harmful for casual RvR.


-> It is very important to note that bringing PvE players to OF is NOT the entire solution nor will it help much without covering all aspects of the solution. It is just a part of the solution.

-> Also they are NOT supposed to feed the casual RvR, they are supposed to lure out casual RvR players. Whether or not those casual RvR players actually go out and kill PvE players is hardly relevant to the real impact of the PvE players.

2. The BGs.
The BGs currently help preventing the solution from working by effectively lowering the possible OF population. As said they provide not only the only alternative to casual RvR, they provide an almost identical form of casual end RvR when it comes to character improvement.
They also increase the standard needed to be succesful and effectively decrease the potential OF activity.

The moment you remove these 4 aspects that help preventing the solution, you will create a setting that is open and receptive to solutions and a change in mentality. Without this, you will only have a part of the solution that is struggling with a negative influence from the BGs.

So in order to make the solution really work the way it should you need to maximise the potential OF (PvE/RVR) activity by removing the harmful factors for that potential. These factors are all present in the latest BGs (40-49), which leads to the logical conclusion that removing these BGs will effectively increase the chances of creating a succesful solution to the current problem.


-> It is important to note that again this is NOT the solution itself. Removing BGs is only part of it and is supposed to create a setting which properly supports the other aspect of the solution.

-> Also by removing the late BGs you will not destroy any important aspect of the BGs, the main reason to do this is to remove the aspects that harm end RvR, but keep as many of the positive aspects as possible, which is why BGs should be kept and even improved under level 40.



So to sum up the solution:

- Get more players into OF through PvE to form your base activity.
- Remove latest BGs to support this as much as possible.
(Reforms of the lower BGs is of no relevance to the current topic but is of course welcome.)

How to actually attract players to PvE in OF is commonly known. (better spawns, better bonusses) However I would like to add to this that adding another incentive for players under level 50 to actually go RvR instead of PvE in OF would be helping the solution greatly aswell due to the positive effect on the action.
Another argument in favor of boosting the RvR incitement for non 50s would be that when the upper BGs are removed, they deserve an alternative way to level through RvR.

For this reason I would also add an increase in RvR XP rewards in OF from x10 to x15 due to the fact that finding incs in OF isn't as easy as finding them in BGs or even DF and of course the enemies will probably be tougher than what they could find in BGs. However this is not a core element of the solution, just a possible supporting feature.


Edit: other additional viable changes that would be an incentive for the casual RvR player to go out in OF would be:

- Add Realm wide keep/relic attack messages. (The guild that claimed it can still see numbers, doorstatus etc. The attack message is the only thing that should be realmwide)
- Reinstall the solo kill-tasks.

More effort requiring options:

- Implement the OF RvR dungeons.
- Implement Old RAs with a few balance tweaks (det for hybrids, mof, possibly mos for archers). General balance between Hib-Alb-Mid at a casual RvR level will improve. (Try beating a mid pug with a hib pug with the current setting, most of the time u'll lose due to the fact that hib pugs need a lot more coordination and rely on casters more than on OPed charge tanks...) And, passives scale differently, making higher tiers not as powerful as they are with NF RAs.



IV. Sidenotes.

a) Why is the Emain reality not compatible with casual RvR?

In order to explain this, we need to get deeper into what the Emain reality and casual RvR stand for. Aswell as the Emain map layout.


1. Emain RvR reality: The Emain RvR reality is determined by 3 major elements.

1.a) The mentality when it comes to group size.
Again there are two factors that have an influence on this.

[Game setting.] -> This mentality is partially influenced by the fact that players will try to maximise their potential with the lowest possible cost.
The lowest organisational cost with the highest potential in DAoC is automaticly equal to the maximum group size, which is 8 players in DAoC. Anything below that has less potential than 8 and anything above that has a considerably harder organisational cost.
[Opponent.] -> The other aspect that influences the group size mentality is related to enemy behaviour. Whenever your enemy maximises their potential, you will have no choice to either avoid that enemy or try and match that level of potential if you want to stand a chance.
In Emain, due to the first fact, most players run in 8 man groups as soon as they can, which then leads to a second reason for other players to run with 8 aswell.

1.b) The mentality when it comes to character strength.
Again there are two factors that influence this.

[Game setting.] -> The mentality about character is partially influenced by the potential the game allows you to have with the lowest possible cost.
On Uthgard, the maximum potential with the lowest cost is level 50 RR4L2 character because Thidranki and Uthgard allow you to easily gain lvl 49.9, realm rank 4L2 with a minimal cost. As you can see, this aspect immediately increases the character strength mentality.
[Opponent.] -> Almost every level 50 opponent in Emain is wearing spellcrafted armor and also has at least RR4L0. This creates another reason for new players to meet those standards to stand a chance to those players.

1.c) The mentality when it comes to player strength (skill).
Again, two factors.

[Game setting.] -> This is where our problem touches the other major problem Uthgard has: Balance.
In a balanced setting, playing a tank is generally easier to master than playing a caster. In the current Uthgard setting, the tank - caster imbalance is making casters even harder to play succesfully.
This increases the skill standard mentality that is needed for a caster to perform well in RvR even further. It also indirectly increases the entire skill standard mentality for caster-reliant Realms such as Alb and Hib due to generally needing more total skill to be on an equal level as their opponents.

Sidenote: This an aspect that can explain the fact that PuG 8man groups are harder to find in Alb and Hib than they are in Mid. However, this is not what I want to elaborate on in this topic.
[Opponent.] -> The stronger the enemy player (and group) is, the higher the skill standard mentality will be.


2. Casual RvR.
The key element of casual RvR is that it's not based on maximising potential.

That's why it is likely to be meeting opponents that are of your own or below your own standard. It therefore allows you to enter easily without having to worry about your opponent's strength to a certain extent because the standard mentality regarding size, strength and skill is so low. You could almost say that compared to current Emain, there is no real standard mentality.



Ok, so you can see we have two very different playstyles. One that is highly maximised in almost every way and one that is almost not maximised in any way.

It is no surprise that the usual casual RvR is no match for the usual Emain RvR. The only way this could stand a match is by sheer numbers, which has more negative than positive consequences in the long-term, especially for everyone that doesn't want to be forced to do casual-like RvR.
Not to mention that having to zerg also increases the standard for casual RvR because you will create the need to have a certain amount of players at your side.


Now the map layout comes into play.

The only way for the usual casual RvR to coexist with the usual Emain RvR is for casual RvR to be able to avoid Emain RvR in some way. Keep in mind we're trying to keep the standards for casual RvR as low as possible, even "having to run speeder classes" is an unwanted increase of the standard and still does not provide any guarantee that you will get away.

Due to the fact that there is only 1 MG per realm spawn, the chances for casual RvR to survive that passage are already heavily reduced. This combined with only a basic route where inc roams makes it almost impossible for the usual casual RvR to coexist with the usual Emain RvR.




Conclusion: The normal Emain RvR always beats the normal casual RvR whenever they can get a hold of it. The Emain map layout and the usual presence of speeder classes also work highly in the Emain RvR advantage.

In other words: casual RvR just does not stand a chance in Emain.


This however does not mean casual RvR is impossible in OF. In fact, by having 3 seperate frontiers, action will have a better performance in both playstyles due to the fact that there is no interferance AND the fact that hotspot zones in those specific zones are a lot more compact and thus a lot more active. Casual RvR will not be tempted to interfere with Emain RvR and Emain RvR normally will not be tempted to interfere with casual RvR unless of course either of those is empty, which is how it is now.


b) And Agramon?

So what is different now compared to what we had in Agramon when it comes to casual vs maximised RvR compatibility.

The answer is quite simple. Due to 2 elements, Agramon allowed for a way better compatibility bewteen playstyles and standards in RvR. These were:

- Two milegates per realm spawn. This allows for safer and more reliable passageways to the action zone.
- More spread out roaming possibilities. This allows for casual RvR to have better chances on avoiding maximised RvR.

So NF handled it this way: they enabled the compatibility between casual and maximised RvR within one zone, creating a slightly lower action level per playstyle (but higher in total because it was all in one zone) due to the larger amount of alternative routes.

This also explains why most players who still play maximised Emain RvR are of the opinion that the OF action level is (slightly) better than NF (because of the more compact action zone), but that the quality has decreased due to higher chances of getting added. (Which is caused by the forced mix of casual and maximised RvR in a zone that is not built to support it and the more compact action zone.)

can you do a quick summary post please.

Novamir wrote:can you do a quick summary post please.

Problem? -> casual end RvR does not exist, see post.

Reason? -> mentality caused by game settings, see post.

Solution? -> remove BGs beyond lvl 40 and make xping in frontiers worthwhile, see post.

I personaly believe that OF is just too big, for the number of active rvr players at any time. Even during peak hours, only one rvr zone is being used, and even then most would rather go to DF. Most action is at Amg, and secondary at Mmg. Currently only about 8 - 16% of the RvR Zones actualy get used, with emain being the main zone. People can go to the others, but why, we know the only action is normaly in emain. That is one of the main design flaws of OF, lazyness is what makes it broken. 2 realms are too lazy to run out to OF, so they teleport to anothers frontier, while 1 realm is forced to run. That is what they changed in NF zones to fix that.

I believe one way to fix that and keep OF is to use one realms OF zones, instead of all 12, use only the 4 of one realms. And as i discribed before, like if we used hib OF, hibs would start normal spot in CG at there boarder. While mids start in emain at there normal PK, and albs start in MC at the bottom corner, with mobs and what ever else in place so they can teleport there safly. Also would have to lock Druim Cain gate and not allow hibs or enemy realms pass it, making all 3 realms have equal distance to brifine, which would be the main rvring zone. Also this puts all keeps closer by, hopefuly increasing keep action and defense. Other adjustments would have to be done, but i think after awhile people would find normal hotspots to locate to, but not as bad as those gates in emain is.

But that is just my opinon, other wise i dont know how full OF would work out, since i believe it has real design issues.

I read the complete post ummm

I am a casual player and I can tell you this if the last 2 Bgs were removed I would just reroll and play Braemar.

The idea of being cannon fodder is not my idea of fun.

Without lvl 50 RR 4L2 I won't even consider end game rvr unless i am playing a stealth.

I would rather see /rp off implented so I could enjoy the time I send on Uthgard.

Doing what your solutions state would drive casual players away imo.

Ithiggi wrote:Doing what your solutions state would drive casual players away imo.

This.

I disagree with the RP bonus, especially nothing near X10, a GG of lvl 40s that play well can roll PUG 8 mans of level 50s, or small mans of lvl 50s. You give them X10 and youll see ridiculous RPS per hour. I could see maybe +20~%.


I believe if players are incentivised enough to make OF the premier leveling area, casual RvR would not be harmed in the slightest. With 3 frontiers to PvE in, you would be able to go out and find some killer XP areas. I'd say that +50-100% exp and near instant respawn rates would do the trick. Maybe even a bit higher since campfires are disabled. 2X cap XP with insta respawn would probably be incentive enough though. Another way to incentivise would be to give every mobs above lvl 45 or 50 or something a 1% chance to drop some loot that most people would like, for instance some kind of recharge gem. That might even bring people who normally wouldn't be PvEing into the frontiers to do just that.

Good points.

I think more xp bonus in OF would help a lot with casual rvr and action in zones beside emain.

I Love the layout of OF and would like to xp there, also it would help with the annoying uthgard xp rate.

If we get OF it will surely lead to more solo/duo/small man casual rvr and its an easy point to start with, without having to chance much.

I still prefer running 8 man still do it in emain, but sometimes duo is nice to calm down a bit. Also i love the Midgard frontier and would love to see there viable action.

OF XP bonus would be a good start imo.

On live with OF i had a lot of casual rvr (duo/solo etc) in Midgard frontier. There where always xpers out and cause of this hunters for them. And when you killed some usually some 50er came to hunt you. Especially near svasud.


Another suggestion i could think of would be to make keep raids more attractive. Random people always tend to raid some stuff.

Also get a warmap or realm message so people actually can defend keeps.
Could help to get action in zones beside emain.

Siegeing always hasbeen part of casual rvr. Not saying this because i play the only realm where you can get some pbae together...

Uthgard mentality driving me think about leave too, when you go to emain for example, and enemy are killing your grp and NONE help you cause the stupid 8 vs 8 guild wars insanity, make you think about broad all LAM..RS about help mates to not feeding rps to enemy.

A week ago i heard a grp blaming people by chat about dont add on "their" fights, if they had to die was no problen (WTF). What about get mids/hibs grow their realm rank while you lay on floor?

again, /rp off.

i have 3000+ hours of bg time and maybe 600 hours rvr time since i started daoc.

i refuse to sit at the borderkeep all evening trying to get/form a group.

when i play in bg and i see a lfg for my rvr chars i apply, if i get a group, good, if not, i stay in the bg.

since my last char capped out of thid i barely played at all, no rvr, no bg, no pve, no raids.

and when im not playing, i dont see /lfg for my rvr classes and hence, wont participate.

yes, i only have det4 on my tank. thats because i rarely get a group without haveing det 5. without a group i wont get det5 anytime soon. so i rarely get groups.
solution? zerg.
probability of zerging? zero.
reason? 8vs8 leet mentality.
solution? none.


there are plenty of people like that, that by now have all the chars they want to play on 50, but dont have anything to do except sitting in front of the borderkeep for 3 hours looking for a group, get annoyed and start in an other realm.

did so too btw, good for realmbalance.


plenty of chars id like to play, but not wanting to go 50 with them.
but at least i could see whats going on in rvr - which is rather impossible if im not ingame or in another realm.

so basicly /rp off would get ME into 50 rvr more often then not.
since without i dont even have a reason to be ingame at all, aside from the occasional cash farming so my house wont run out of rent.

zaszeadora wrote:Uthgard mentality driving me think about leave too, when you go to emain for example, and enemy are killing your grp and NONE help you cause the stupid 8 vs 8 guild wars insanity

Uthgard mentality is just like of that on live in "classic times". Zergs and stealther zergs adding on everything no exceptions. If you think the 8v8 mentality is bad, I don't know what server you're playing on because there's only very few guildgroups on uthgard who won't add, the rest will be happy to add and zerg away, anything for arpees (zomg arpees).

BlackCougar wrote:rant

Ever thought about, I dunno, making friends with people who actively rvr ? Or joining a rvr active guild ?

rp off will be the worst thing ever for 50 rvr!

With rp off people will stay forever in bg with maxed rr and sc gear and farm everyone who has not, which is also very bad for all the new people starting here.

Bgs are there to help you learn your toons role in rvr and to make your first rps, not for staying there forever.
RP Off and BGs are just for people, who cant compete in daocs endgame rvr.

All we need is better possibilities for casual 50 rvr. Possible solutions mentioned above.

If you really try to get a rvr group and get to know the rvr people youll get rvr groups.

BlackCougar wrote:there are plenty of people like that, that by now have all the chars they want to play on 50, but dont have anything to do except sitting in front of the borderkeep for 3 hours looking for a group, get annoyed and start in an other realm.

Why not get together with those people and start running grps?

Seems like you want rp/grps to just be given to you on a plate.. see it a lot on this server,

/lfg messages of all different classes, but noone will ever start inviting people.

IMO, the bad mentality is just caused by a "lack of humanity" showed by a big part of usual players.

As I've observed, many usual players who considere their self like good or very good players don't like to group with casual, just because they don't play the way they exepcted !

Why a casual would play with a usual player who can hurt him, just because he doesn't play the way that the other expect ...

I just think that casual & usual don't have the same aim of end game.

Most of the time, Casual just want to have fun, and usual just want to win.

And this can be proved just by asking to some casual why they don't play in Emain.

As Cougar said, "8 man = leet mentality"

Artefact wrote:Most of the time, Casual just want to have fun, and usual just want to win.

Actually it's quite the opposite. "Casuals" zerg rvr zones even when there's no enemy zergs because they can't face defeat. Good example of that is pretty much any zerg fight, where one zerg simply vanishes after defeat (people log off crying).

Artefact wrote:And this can be proved just by asking to some casual why they don't play in Emain.

They don't play in emain because rvr is too hard when you need every member in the group to do their part. Battlegrounds are much easier, you can have a few decent people who'll kill off many enemies while the rest are either cannon fodder or doing who knows what. Soloing is somewhat easier because of smaller maps but it's still lame most of the time.