I like Holstens idea, less clinical fights will make the game more enjoyable for everyone

holsten-knight wrote:II) Explain your variable

Every day situations everywhere on Uthgard:
- Player pull out of fights to let their chanceless low rr realmmates, that added the fight, die.
- They arrange fights via IRC, even at prime time.
- Two realms organise RvR against the 3rd realm, as soon as they think one realm does not play according to their selfmade rules.
- AMG is a pure 1vs1 duel zone, with players of all 3 realms watching every fight without interfering, at least 10 hours a day. Every not know player of the "inner circle" that shows up gets ganked instantly.

This is not how daoc was designed. The Uthgard rules marks this explicitly as forbidden. And it's the number one fun killer for new or casual player in rvr.

+1 !

And I'd like to add my opinion on fixed fights and adding:
I had the luck to run with Rare a few nights ago and have gotten respect of how they (and some other 8 man groups) don't zerg solos or don't add a fair 8v8 fight. Although it was also fun when a 2nd fg mids and later even a 3rd fg mids added our 8v8 fight. That's RvR: sometimes you'll get a 'fair' fight, sometimes not. Should the 1st group of mids pull out because they were added? I'd say no. An 8v8 fight can be nice to test 'how strong' you are against a fixed setup, but it's dealing with the extra unexpected ads that makes RvR a challenge (and thus fun).

On the other side as low RR players, adding a fight is sometimes the only way to get some rps. You have to be lucky to get invited in a decent RvR group, be lucky you can make a decent low RR group and train together to improve ... or you're stuck with a useless pug which will wipe twice and disband.
If you run as a RR2-4 solo at amg into a RR10, you can sit down and hit /release. I'd be more than happy if an ally jumped in to give a hand of help. If you see a RR6 ally fight the RR10, you can add and both win (and get flamed cause the RR6 'doesn't get all RPS' ... he could have been dead on the ground as well). Is 2v1 'unfair'? In some scenario's it might be, but so is a RR10 dumping all his RA's on a RR2 no? Is 8+1/2 solos adding unfair? In some scenario's maybe, in most scenario's if you can't handle 9 enemies, you wouldn't have handled the 8 either.

It's Realm vs Realm, help out your realm mates. If you don't want to be added, clearly state it to the adder(s) in a friendly way first, don't let them die without telling why as they will give up on RvR. If you really want your fixed fights, go do them in a corner of Cruachon Gorge or between the giants of Forest Sauvage where you won't get added (or ask for an RvR instance).
You can still camp amg, but kill every red that passes which you think you can handle (I don't ask you to suicide), don't let that one guys pass because you know him and kill the guy just behind him because he's new. And don't QQ because 2 low RRs added and killed you, port back and use your skills to kill them as well.

IV) further comments (to the whole Uthgard community)
You'll only get low RRs to stay in RvR and keep the player base in frontiers high if either they got the dedication (which few have) or if everybody has respect:
- Don't 8v1 same guy over and over.
- Adding a fair fight / fight where your side is losing shouldn't be frown upon, we're fighting for the realm.
- However also have respect for the enemy: don't add a fair/winning fight and turn it into a blatant zerg of the enemy, just to leech 150 rps.
- In a fight with 3 realms: be 'smart' and go for the strongest enemy (which can be 1 hib first, then 1 mid, then 2 more hibs), don't arrange 2 realms vs 1.

I dont know... Yes, I agree with some of what Holsten said, but at the same time if I go out on my ranger and get killed by 3-8 people and I cant get enough people to go back and put up a fight I also log. So like MrTired said, yes there is a time and place to add and zerg. It does need some discretion though.

For me personally, I'm ok with 2-3 low RR players fighting me. If I'm able to kill one or 2 low RR players and die to the third then I'd say that is a fair fight for sure. However, if I try and fight those same 3 players and they just absolutely wreck me then I would say that it was my toon who was being discouraged from coming back.

I never yell at people who add my fights, but depending on the situation I will sometimes quit fighting the enemy. Hey, if I've put several hits on an enemy and had them on me and you add in my fight and still cant win then whose fault is that really? If sombody adds my fight I just ask them nicely to please not do it again. If they keep doing it then I just move on to a different area or log another toon.

well holsten you cant tell players how to play the game otherwise it will ruin the server faster then the disencuragement . having a fg rushing one player is as hurtfull as the fair1vs1 comunity might be on new guys. you cant regulate playing the game beeing played inside of the boundarys of the game mechanics. and exactly the diffrent playstyles colliding in one zone without any rules is the fun of daoc

I) Start off with the variable that influences RvR-activity (problem/idea):

Keep claiming / Teleportation system

II) Explain your variable

With the current system there is no reason/reward for a guild to claim and upgrade a keep. The only thing claiming a keep does is give the enemy more rps when it is captured.

III) State how to positively influence this variable (solution for the problem)

Give a reason/purpose for being in a guild. Institute the guild merit point system seen here:

http://www.darkageofcamelot.com/content ... rit-system
and
http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Pat ... rsion_1.76

Guilds gain merit points by gaining levels in pve, rr's in rvr, trade skill milestones and maybe implement things like dragon/legion kills.

Guilds can use these merit points for purchasing bonuses for the guild such as increased rps, exp, craft speed.

In RvR, Merit points would be used as currency to claim and upgrade keeps, possibly purchase extra npc guards. When a keep reaches a certain level the guild with ownership may purchase a summoner npc that allows teleport to that keep, a level 10 keep might even allow /recall to that keep. Each level of upgrade could provide something new to purchase.

Now, you could go two ways with this system...
1.) allow teleport to any keep that is owned/upgraded/summoner purchased
-or-
2.) require a supply chain to teleport, keeps in supply line must only be owned by your realm, not claimed or upgraded


IV) further comments - you can write whatever you think needs to be said

I think this is a good idea and would provide depth to rvr and guilds themselves. Obviously this is a big change with many angles to consider. Lots of options here...

I) only a certain amount of classes are useful in rvr, so you cannot "play" the char you like most in rvr
II) patch-state
III) 1.69 is everything but balanced
IV)
I assume most comments will be "go ywain". well most time im playing atm on live, due to the fact every class can performe great. on 1.69 a normal rr friar will be a piece of crap in your grp. or an enchanter without a setgrp or mentalist or whatever.
look at the style system on ywain, every melee class has access to a backsnare for peeling.(and done come with realm-diversity on goddamn melee-styles)

classic is sth different in my eyes. classic would be a 1.11x patch state without banespike dropping, diseasing offtanks. nevertheless an old patch state is always flawed (guess there are reason for further ongoing patches).
thats my opnion, if your beloved class can performe great in rvr, you would play it. if you are forced to make your beloved class a pve- or bg-wh*re and to play a class you dont like it as much as your favourite, you won't be as active as normally.

I) Re-implement Recharge Stones

II) Dark age of Camelot was never a perfect game, what Uthgard has the chance of doing is making Daoc what it could of been, and an effective use of bounty-points through recharge stones was an almost genius example of players effectively using their hard earned bountypoints to make RvRing in the frontiers easier, not just as a soloer but in a fg situation also.

III) The positives is the ability for solo players to continue soloing without the need of suicide and come back. And also for full groups/zergs to not have to go back to recharge their items to compete in the frontier zones. Recharge stones meant for a lot of people more time spent rvring without the worry and the HUGE EXPENSE of having to recharge their items.
Reintroduce the recharge stones for bounty points, they were at a reasonable rate and as I say it was a fantastic feature of Uthgard that I and many many players would love to see return. This also adds worth to players bountypoints rather than just house rent. Knowing that bounty points they earn effectively helps them compete in the rvr zones.

IV) I really want to write about reintroducing barrels for the same reason above but for me and I'm sure if it was put to a vote everyone would love to see recharge stones re-implemented, they were great for the game on all aspects, for the soloer's, fg's and the zergs, nothing but benefited rvr and kept people in the zone.

[Edited by Yondai] No need to C/P anything. Your post was heard.

I completely agree with bringing back charge stones but barrels aren't really necessary. You can survive for hours with charge stones and pots. It isn't necessary to carry around 500 potions

its not about the amount of charges but its less time.consuming to make/store them.

alternitive idea wich would be a middleway : make it possible to stack potions in vault/chest only (and if you put the stack back in inventory you only get one at a time).

so you could make 100 pots once and store them rather having to constantly redo potions.

I still think the way to go is implement the live like feature of draughts or however you spell them. They were on live, although I dont know if they were at 1.69. They had, I believe, 3 charges. So now you would use 1/3 the space in storing, you would use 1/3 the space in your inventory, and its a live like feature unlike barrells.

Speaking as a casual player for 3/4 years that would like to do more RvR.

I) Claim/Upgrade keeps.

II) Not popular/little incentive to do so.
III) Increase incentives drastically, some ideas:

-Bonus RP based on upgrade level for defender kills in vicinity of keep. i.e. 10% per level.
-Display keep levels in /realm and on herald if possible.
-As others have discussed, a faster-to-action teleport system to help defenders get to besieged keeps faster, as well as general RvR action.
-Bonus RP for attackers I.e: Increased keep take RP, bonus RP for keep-vicinity kills, possibly based on number of keep vicinity enemies.
-Weekly/daily Keep tasks – ~10k bonus RP a week at RR3 sounds rewarding considering they will be keep taking at low RR anyway.

IV) I think these ideas increase incentive for casual players to frontiers on a regular basis, which in turn provides more regular inc for the regular RvR players, whilst being easy to implement because they build on existing systems.


I) Player mentality ("Inner "irc" Circle"), repeated adding/ganking.

II) Reduce reward for repeatedly teaming up against the 'unknown'/weaker player(s).
III) RP drop off for multiple kills within a given period, make it senseless to repeatedly kill a weaker player with more people. I.e. ganking/zerging when it's unjustified to do so.
IV) Might not directly influence 1v1 fights but could perhaps stop that high RR group endlessly rolling a weak PuG. (Current state example: Low RR Hib PuG runs Emain, gets ganked. Regrp/Rebuff, head out - Mid group now in Crauchan Gorge, ganks hibs again because no other inc for them in Emain.)
Players would be better able to maximize RP gains by taking it in turns to fight the weaker/player/groups over time ( I.e. playing more fair like some guild groups do already ), rather than adding on sight - because if you add someone else or get added by allies, not only are you getting reduced RPs for the initial kill, it may also greatly effect future kills. Still doesn't stop griefing and may hurt fair players' RP gain if RvR population increases enough ( at which point there would be no need for this proposal ).


I) Sub 50/Low RR Frontier Options

II) With the removal the last BG, there's a gap between 43-50 effective PvE and RvR options.
III) Increase incentives to XP and RvR in the Frontiers sub 50 and at low RR. Ideas include:

- Increase frontier XP bonuses to better reflect the risk of exping in the few viable leveling spots that exist and are patrolled by higher levels.
- Greatly increase gold/vendor loot drops in frontiers/frontier dungeons. My experience as a Hib - while exp is better in the frontier, cash reward/loot drops are miserable compared to some non-frontier zone spots. For new players it may seem more rewarding for them if they could get more equipment/gold as they level instead of waiting till they're 50 to start farming for a template.
- Custom frontier 44~45 armor OTDs. Gear would only really effect new players with little cash, whilst being too high to use for the last BG. Provides new hunting spots and RvR opportunities for sub 50s and low RRs (as well as higher RRs preying on the weak). Provides a transition to get players from the BG to the Frontiers and start joining in with keep takes sub 50.
- Move the Epic Armor quests/mobs to the frontier zones.
- Additional Bonus RP for kills in the frontiers based on level difference.
- Frontier XP/Gold kill tasks.

IV) Again, builds on existing in-place systems so should be easy to implement.


I) Unnecessary time sinks/class balance and abilities

II) Pointless removal of non-rvr damaging abilities, such as group PoM, among others, increase time invested for no reason other than 'it's not at our patch goal'. I also believe some "custom" features from later patches that address class balance would be helpful to overall class PvE and RvR dispersal for the current state of Uthgard, such as Wardens and the recent removal of Cure Disease/Poison.
III) Revise class abilities form post 1.69 and non-rvr centric abilities that could be introduced/reintroduced to increase class balance and decrease buff time, based on current group setup trends. Could also decrease all buff cast times if caster and target have been out of combat ~30 seconds. Quicker to buff, less opportunity for players to afk while in group = faster-to-action activity when OOC already anyway and doesn't effect in combat rezz's or RvR.
IV) Examples include group PoM for classes/specs that aren't popular in RvR groups - the removal of which is thus senseless. Class balancing issues that were implemented post 1.69 that greatly balance under performing and under played classes may increase overall RvR activity by making a wider range of classes viable and sought-after in group RvR.

I) Set guild groups during us evenings
II) Make a group cap of 4 during these times.
III) You can build a small man a lot easier than building a fg. Also there's plenty of times when there isn't even 6-8 people who want to rvr. So your 4 or 5 man logs because you can't fill the rest of the slots. This ruins it for both sides, the other group loses their inc and you log because you can't win.
IV) From experience there has been plenty of times we can't find enough people to fill the group. If it was 4 it would be so much easier for EVERYONE. Those set groups could break their 8 man into two groups and have a lot more inc. Instead of zerging everyone to log and then being forced to keep take

Another idea to make RvR more attractive for casual/low RR players:

I) Lower RR and lower level players (40-49) should be coming to Frontiers to not only enjoy RvR but also should be encouraged to go there for bonuses to xp and money. By getting these players out there we now have more low level and low RR players for other low RR/level players to fight.

II) I believe the 50% bonus in the main RvR zones (Emain/Hadrians/Odins) is a great step in that direction, but many dont even know that it grants a 50% bonus, but even for the ones who are aware of this bonus its hard to find camps that could accomodate a fg or even a small group of level 42-49 players wanting to xp. Think of camps like Fins for Hibs and Shredders in LB for Albs. There is no camps like this in the main frontier zones where the bonuses are. Also, since the frontier mobs pretty much just drop coin, some random junk drops, and an occasional tinder box most players are not willing to farm there.

III) If you would maybe keep the 50% bonus and maybe even add that same bonus to the other RvR zones it would encourage leveling in the frontiers by more casual players. Also, maybe tie into this another bonus if your guild owns a keep in the zone you are xp'ing of say another 25% bonus then now players have a reason to take and claim a keep strictly for the xp bonus. You should also consider expanding the camp sizes to be more accomodating and challenging for higher level groups xp'ing those final levels. For example, if the 50% bonus was in Breifine as well and your guild claimed Crim or Bolg then you could farm Fins in that zone for a 75% bonus to xp. This would certainly be more than enough to make up for the occasional wipe to a fg roaming around and would encourage keep defense to keep the bonus xp rate.
Another option or possible addition would be to increase the gold/item drop rates or even add in some salvageable loot to make increase the rewards for those level 50's that are out farming money for a new template. As an example, the Ellyls in Pennine mountains used to be a great place for a low RR casual player to go check out when I was in my lower RR's on my ranger. Albs were constantly coming out to farm there because the bugged drop rate netted like almost 75g a kill out there. Even though the risk was high that a player would come along and kill them they would come back because the money made was better then anywhere else for them.

IIII) Same idea I have pushed before. If you make the reward high enough for casuals and low RR's to come out and xp and farm then you now have more casual players and hence the lower RR players that dont want to deal with the high RR players at AMG can now go check farm spots hoping to get some fights in, much like DF RvR works now.
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Well thanks a lot for all the info.

It will take some time to actually work through all of your ideas since not everybody took my rules (most of all keep it short and on the spot) seriously

All of the posts here will be seen through and evaluated.

The Topic will be locked for the time being and reopened for round 2 if necessary.