bawww wrote:Zarkor man I love it when you get all enthusiastic about Uthgard all over again just to get back to "fck this" attitude 2 months later.

If things would actually happen here I might find the motivation to care longer than 2 months.

borog wrote:So are you saying that lvl 50's don't require cash because they will have already got their RVR gear? RVR players with too much money is already a recognized problem on this server, why give them more? It will just make the economy even more broken.

What?! First of all, RvRing does NOT make you richer than PvEing, at all. Where the hell are you getting this from? Second, the increased cash reward would only be given to non-50 players. RvRing doesn't make you rich, but it doesn't make you poor either, for lvl 50s its perfectly fine as it is imo.

borog wrote:on one hand you state that the lack of character progression from 40-50 is the problem and then state that people should go to rvr zones to level. You then go one to say that leveling in rvr is slower then PVE, but people will have more fun.

Why would someone see the benefit of having steady progression to 50 as worse for them than having to spend 3 times longer getting there in an rvr zone where they are constantly being steamrolled by RR8-10 groups? ...repeated deaths is not fun.

I get your point, though you've misunderstood.

The lack of character progression does not concern levels 40-50. It concerns those who leave Thid and enter Emain. They can barely find any groups, let alone win fights. Hence, lack of character progression.

In a situation where a respectable number (not every enemy is RR8-10 if there are enough newer players) of newer/casual players (40-50) go out in RvR, it will be possible for these players to achieve at least a satisfactional amount of character progression (enjoyable RvR) in their first days/weeks of RvR, which is an IMMENSE improvement for new players in frontier RvR. They will actually stay around because they have the possibility to enjoy themselves there. Whenever they feel RvR isn't worthwhile at a certain point however, they can always fall back to PvEing, they are not stopped in their tracks when it comes to character progression, whereas players that left Thidranki can only fall back to rerolling a new character, thus abandoning the work they have put into their original character, which is hugely demotivational. Why would the new character they just started have better chances when they leave Thidranki? That's right, it won't.

borog wrote:that's just the thing, the players will be the same and you will still get steamrolled by the higher RR groups. Unless of course we can magically create a huge influx of 40-50's, then there may be too many for the 8 mans to handle. However, this leads on to a whole new argument about zerging being detrimental to 8 man RVR, and lets face it, the 8 man groups shout the loudest when things don't do their way.

Like I said, the measures need to be combined in one big overhaul for this to work. We do need a huge influx of 40-50s but this can't be achieved by slow, small measures because the influx will be too small and thus get driven out by the current RvR population for the exact same reasons they are being driven out now. That's the biggest obstacle there is when facing this problem. That and of course the staff's coöperation.

To be honest I'm quite sure the 8 man groups would love nothing more than more inc than they can handle. If it should really become unbearable, they will find their way to other, quieter zones. The plus side on this would also be that in order to have an enjoyable time in RvR, one does not have to form a full group. A smallman can take on a FG of undecently geared lvl ~45s if they play it right. Action will be much less defined by the standards we now know exactly because there will be so many new players around.

borog wrote:right so your answer is to effectively turn open field rvr into a kind of BG setting where lowbies level up off each other and the big boys stay away for some reason?

You could call it a sort of transition between BGs and fullgrown lvl 50 endRvR. Casual and new players need this to be able to feel at home or at least somewhat welcomed.

In general though, action will remain centered around Emain. As long as it doesn't get extremely crowded there (which I don't see happening any time soon, even with a huge influx of 40s-50s), the current RvR population will stick to roaming that zone. The FGs that roam now aim primarily on fighting opponents that are worth their time and effort preferably with as little downtime as possible. FGs will in general not take the effort to go around porting to Odin's Gate because there's 5 smallmans, 2 FGs of lvl 40-45s and a couple of XP groups scattered around the primary RvR zone when there are 6-8 enemy lvl 50 FGs in Emain. The only reason they would do this is because they can't compete with the groups in Emain, which in turn makes them lean more towards casuals than the feared high RR organised teams.

when all is said and done, it seems to me that the only way lower 40-50's and low RR people can succeed in open field RVR is to all run together in zerg fashion.

This has been attempted many times and is always met with derision because the 8 man groups don't like it.

You also state that 8mans tend to go for the worthwhile target with as little downtime as possible. This is a bit of an oxymoron because nothing easily gained is worthwhile

However, if an 8man had to choose to battle an 8man MB/Requiem/whoever set group; or a 4/5/or even 8 man pug, they will choose the pug ever time, or at least until they get bored with the easy points and want more of a challenge.

its happened many times that my duo has been rolled over by 8 man groups, to the point that i now try to avoid RVR zones altogether because its just a massive waste of my time and effort to go there.

If we could remove the disdain that is attached to zerging, then i bet you would see more lower level/RR people wandering around.

How many videos on YouTube do you see from the live servers where large numbers from each side all run together??

it looks like fun too

there is no RvR on Uthgard, its just PvP and GvG

borog wrote:there is no RvR on Uthgard, its just PvP and GvG

Finally 1 got the point /clap

borog wrote:
there is no RvR on Uthgard, its just PvP and GvG

Thats it and you cant change it. Either accept it or play another game its as simple and sad as it is.
If you run something else than 8vs8 1vs1 everyone will coop/ add / flame you to get you back in line. (of course just for fairness, go out with 4l2 and fight the rr8+ fully buffed in a 'fair' 1vs1)
No point in trying something different, the Uthgard RvR community is shortsighted but really efficient in flaming / cooping all the casuals out of emain.

Celteen wrote:

borog wrote:
there is no RvR on Uthgard, its just PvP and GvG

Thats it and you cant change it. Either accept it or play another game its as simple and sad as it is.
If you run something else than 8vs8 1vs1 everyone will coop/ add / flame you to get you back in line. (of course just for fairness, go out with 4l2 and fight the rr8+ fully buffed in a 'fair' 1vs1)
No point in trying something different, the Uthgard RvR community is shortsighted but really efficient in flaming / cooping all the casuals out of emain.

I agree w/ Borog's statement for the most part. I also Agree w/ Celteen's post. However, I'm curious Celteen, are you saying that you think a 4L2 SHOULD be able to solo a 8L+? To be fair, that 8L+ had to work his way up from 4L2. I get what your saying, but that is a rough patche EVERY player has to go threw. Also, you CAN compete at lower RR against higher RR if well played. I'm 8L+ and Dexx (pre 5L0) and Cadeuces (also pre 5L0) have both beat me in 1 vs 1's when they were under 5L0. Yah, they didnt kill me 3 out of 4 fights, but they gave me tough fights every time and eventually adapted and killed me. I get your point, and even agree with it for the most part, but just thought I would add my 2 cents to that one comment.

Well it really depends on how the players got to 4RR or 8RR and it also depends on the match-up. Some characters just aren't very good against others regardless of the RR. So an RR8 is not a guaranteed win every time against an RR4.

...and as i said it also depends on how the player got to their rank. Most 'visibles' join a guild and run in frontiers with their little 8 man groups picking off groups of a smaller size, and most stealthers just run about in DF picking off PVE'rs when they are busy with a pull.

sure all the high RR players had to work hard to get where they are today, but how many of them did it without the help of a full group, or a guild or farming guard tasks?

not many i bet.

and we can discount stealthers from this because they have the ability to pick and choose their fights, so a steady flow of RP's is more guaranteed.

borog wrote:when all is said and done, it seems to me that the only way lower 40-50's and low RR people can succeed in open field RVR is to all run together in zerg fashion.

This has been attempted many times and is always met with derision because the 8 man groups don't like it.

Wrong. What I'm proposing has virtually never been attempted simply because there never was the playerbase to do so. The only thing that has been attempted was either a full-blown zerg event organised by players, a relic raid or an organised group running with 2FG or more. Anything smaller are just PuGs that happen to get beaten by other FGs and team up. That is the closest to 'natural' zergs Uthgard has ever come and to be quite honest no selfrespecting FG complains about that. It's a challenge, nothing more.

The reason the 8man community opposes organised zergs or even relic raids for that matter is because it completely disables any other form of RvR. That is also the reason why smaller more natural 'zergs' are welcomed as a challenge. They team up with more numbers to beat the regular groupsize. That's only normal and decent FGs mostly like to have such fights. The ones that do complain about such groups are usually the ones that only care for RPs and prefer to have them as easy as possible. In fact if they could get RPs by killing lvl 1 mobs, they would be sitting around in the starting zones 24/7. There are such players, but they certainly don't count as the 'loudmouthed' 8v8 community. They're simply selfish ****** who couldn't care less about anyone else, let alone the server. If we have to start taking them into account before changing anything, this server might as well shut down here and now.

borog wrote:You also state that 8mans tend to go for the worthwhile target with as little downtime as possible. This is a bit of an oxymoron because nothing easily gained is worthwhile

However, if an 8man had to choose to battle an 8man MB/Requiem/whoever set group; or a 4/5/or even 8 man pug, they will choose the pug ever time, or at least until they get bored with the easy points and want more of a challenge.

You've misunderstood what I'm saying. Again, every selfrespecting FG (organised, higher RR guildrelated groups) is not out to find "Easy Arpees". They're out to have fun, to have challenging fights. In general, everyone is. A challenging fight simply is a lot more fun than rolling smallmans with 8. In other words, a worthwhile fight is not an easy one, not at all.

borog wrote:its happened many times that my duo has been rolled over by 8 man groups, to the point that i now try to avoid RVR zones altogether because its just a massive waste of my time and effort to go there.

If we could remove the disdain that is attached to zerging, then i bet you would see more lower level/RR people wandering around.

No, we won't. There simply is no population to do so in the current setting. The amount of players needed is either in Thidranki/Wilton or in PvE. The problem we are facing has got nothing to do with "disdain". It's got to do with the setting we are in which only allows for so much. In the setting I am proposing, people will most likely zerg rather easily on primetime and they won't give a sh!t about what the 8v8 community thinks about it. They'll find enough enemies even if the FGs avoid them, so why should they?

borog wrote:tHow many videos on YouTube do you see from the live servers where large numbers from each side all run together??

Keep in mind that live has 3x the amount of players we have on Uthgard. Before the new BGs came out, frontier RvR was the only way for lvl 35+ players to RvR. Of course at lvl 36 there's no way you're going to beat a lvl 50, hence they zerged. The same principle should be applied here, only with the difference that instead of going out in the frontier should not only be a matter of "its your only option if you want RvR, but you'll do so anyway because the game is new and everyone is thrilled out of their brains so that they don't care anyway", but a matter of incentives through viable character progression in combination with the actual fun of RvR as it should be.

Celteen wrote:

borog wrote:there is no RvR on Uthgard, its just PvP and GvG

Thats it and you cant change it. Either accept it or play another game its as simple and sad as it is.

That's the same as saying: you have cancer, accept it and die already. I refuse to agree with such a loser mentality. Uthgard can change, real RvR is possible, it just takes a serious effort. Clearly you're not up to it, that's your opinion, but don't go telling others what they can or can't do to try fixing it, that's just filthy.

Seems like people here really have been infected by Uthgard's setting and their ability to think outside the box or see a bigger picture is completely destroyed. Quite sad, really.

Rvr should be easy, instant action, and you shouldn't have to do anything to win the fight.

Some good trollin' there.



And to stay on topic, I don't feel like there's anything really wrong with RVR or anything of that nature. I think more people would be up for it if it didn't take them so long to get to the crowded regions just to be ganked and have to repeat the entire walk over. It should be made twice as small so stealthers don't thrive so much. The vast area is too beneficial to them with the low population.

Does anyone actually want the RVR zone to be so huge?

if i take a look on his signature, borog seems to be the typical bg player who never really tried to reach higher realmranks... its so easy if you put only a little little effort on it.

oh and btw i got most of rr7 solo (beware: boring ellyl flames inc soon)

Galandriel2 wrote:if i take a look on his signature, borog seems to be the typical bg player who never really tried to reach higher realmranks... its so easy if you put only a little little effort on it.

oh and btw i got most of rr7 solo (beware: boring ellyl flames inc soon)

hum not solo but duo with tantchen

Seethoven wrote:Does anyone actually want the RVR zone to be so huge?

Zarkor wrote:Possible solutions:
A) Implement a porting system for the home realms. Porting to the closest keep to the primary zone that is controlled by your realm (the zone that holds the enemy realms' portal keeps). (Briefine Dun Crimthain for Hib for instance if Crimthain is under Hib control.) This porting system shuts down once the primary RvR zone contains a certain number of players so that action can spread out when it gets too crowded. From then on it's either horse or foot.
Keep in mind that this would be in effect in all RvR lands, which means in general, Alb and Mid zones will permanently able to port to their primary RvR zones (since those zones are harder to saturate), making these more attractive for smallman action when Emain gets overrun by FGs+ for instance.

My 2 cts.

I like it. Still think the area is just too big though.

Galandriel2 wrote:if i take a look on his signature, borog seems to be the typical bg player who never really tried to reach higher realmranks... its so easy if you put only a little little effort on it.

oh and btw i got most of rr7 solo (beware: boring ellyl flames inc soon)

i play the way i want because i do not enjoy waiting for ages to get groups only to find that most people give up after getting steamrolled once or twice. I am also not in a guild like you, so dont have the luxury of being able play with a steady group. I don't speak a word of German, so i havent been invited to any guilds, and because i run either solo or duo, nobody knows me enough to care.

TBH i havent gone into a BG in a while because i've capped it with my interesting players, and only have supports left, which i cant stand to play.

i play the way i want and im happy with that amd you play the way you want and im happy for you too.