So I was wondering if we could revive the topic of resist debuffs, how they work currently, how they should be working for whatever patch level we choose..

Things we need to clarify would be if it's actually possible to debuff into negative values (on Live and on Uthgard).. How Skill influences the delve of debuffs (means if they actually get up to 62.5% or if they don't benefit from composite specc like other debuffs)..

This would be a thread for discussion and sources mainly.. I'm not sure what and if something's broken, that's why it might be good if we talk about it:


I found several topics where it's confirmed that even in April 2006 (which would be patch 1.82-1.83) debuffing into negative values was still possible.. Not sure if this is possible on Uthgard and if it's confirmed? I have been told it's not possible.. Which would make a huge loss in effectiveness.

http://forums.freddyshouse.com/albion-3 ... ost2747427

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Im not sure where you got that formula from Noblok, but its not in line with how the game works out resists after resist debuff.

First off the info the heat debuff gives is kinda wrong. This is the info you get from http://www.camelotherald.com/spells/...php?sp_id=2970

Empower Heat
Spell Level: 49
Category: Debuff (Heat Resistance)
Target's resistance to Heat damage is lowered.
Effect: -50

The delve of the spell ingame is also wrong, it says:

Empower Heat
Lowers the value of the target's resistance buffs or items to the listed damage type.
Base value of spell: 50
Resist decreased: Heat
-- Resists from spell-based buffs reduced 37%
-- Resists from item-based buffs reduced 18%

None on this is correct. Hope you follow me this far. The whole description is just verry wrong. To start with, it actully debuffs for an effecient 31% from you item-based resists. Then it checks for a resist buff. We will come to this later, but lets start with these 4 easy scenarios. You have the result of the debuff on the left.

0% item-based heat resist, 0% spell-based resist buff (-31%)
7% item-based heat resist, 0% spell-based resist buff (-24%)
16% item-based heat resist, 0% spell-based resist buff (-15%)
25% item-based heat resist, 0% spell-based resist buff (-6%)

Good you made it this far, now! How does it debuff the friar/shamman/CL resists? Well its verry easy to explain it just strippes the resist buff into half.

So if you have 10% from CL you get +5%, if you got 16% you only get 8%, and 12% from a 24% resist buff.

Scenario 2.

0% item-based heat resist, 10% spell-based (CL) resist buff (-26%)
7% item-based heat resist, 16% spell-based (Friar) resist buff (-16%)
16% item-based heat resist, 16% spell-based (Friar) resist buff (-7%)
25% item-based heat resist, 24% spell-based (Friar) resist buff (+6%)

I hope you understand how it works now.. This is also where resist piercing comes into play, you cant take it into account until you nuke the target. The bonus actully dosent work how it should (lucky us enchanters) cause IF you have lets say a positive heat resist after debuff, that little part is actully counted as item-based when nuked on. Even thou its from your resist-buff, thus making enchanters nuke on minimum 0% heat or lower.

Questions? Go ahead, just remember whatever item resist you have, stripp 31% from it and half your resist-buff, and then if its positive put away max 10% (cant go negative). And then you know how much your effecient heat is vs the caster.

ps! Negative energy resists gives enchanters a huge damage boost, im not sure how much, but I find it amazing
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Another thing I'm asking myself: Is the splitting of debuffs on items/resist buffs a change from 1.80 or way earlier and it was just being stated then?


1.80

- The delve information for resist debuff spells will now reflect any splits between item-based and spell-based resists.

http://vnboards.ign.com/daoc_albion_mag ... 195629/p1/

This thread was opened right after the patch.. But many people in there state that they still get their +Dmg on enemies with resists debuffed below 0%..

Edit:

Oh, look at this: http://vnboards.ign.com/hibernia_caster ... 364346/p1/
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Date Posted: 6/22/06 12:51am

So to everyone who's a nay-sayer about resist debuffs debuffing below 0%...

Wanna explain this?

http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a129/ ... t=1111.jpg
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Seems like even after the patch it was still possible to debuff below 0%.. Even though it got more complicated with splitting.. With decent equip and w/o resist pierce it wouldn't occur anymore..

Edit2:
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1.65

- Previously, resist debuffs counted double versus resist buffs. This has been changed to make them count normally against item, buff, and racial resists.

And:


2005-11-04 19:26:34


Q: My guild and I have been debating about the mechanics of debuff spells. Testing this is difficult with /duel for obvious class balance reasons. Can you explain how debuffs affect realm enemies and if/when they can be debuffed beyond 0% resist?

A: From the Code Warrior: " The way debuff "delve" values translate into actual debuffed statistics is actually fairly complex, and as part of 1.81 we will be redoing the delve so that it gives a value closer to how they actually work. Right now the values serve as a comparative guide between debuffs, but don't actually correspond to how they affect targets."

Obviously I need to revisit this topic after the 1.81 patch next month…
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It seems like the 1.81 patch has been an actual change considering this statement from grab bag.. The discussion on vnboards and other forums suggest a noticeable "nerf" (probably connected to the newly introduced resi pierce from ToA)..

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Here an explanation of what the 1.65 patch changed:

http://www.camelotherald.com/news/news_ ... oryid=1125

Q: (insert 1.65 resist changes question here)

A: Here's the answer I got from Balance Boy:

"Prior to 1.65, resists were all added together to create a single percentage which was reduced from the damage of the appropriate type that was taken.

"For example:

"If you had 26% cold resist in items, 14% in cold resist buffs, Avoidance of Magic III (9%), and Brilliant Aura of Deflection (36%), your total resist to cold type damage would be:

"26+14+9+36=85%

"So if you were hit by a spell that did 500 cold damage, the actual damage you received after resists would be 500*(1- .85) or 75 points. The person casting the spell on you would see the damage result as 75(-425). That's the way it WAS.

"With the NEW system, resists are added into two separate categories that are applied to the damage consecutively instead of all together at once. Items, Buffs, and Racial abilities are calculated into the first resist check and Realm Abilities that affect resists are calculated in the second check.

"Using the same example as above:

"Your 26% cold resist items and 14% cold resist buffs would be counted first, so 26+14=40%.

"Then with the same 500 point cold damage spell, the calculation would be 500*(1-.40) or 300.

"That 300 would then be checked against the AoM III (9%) and BAoD (36%), so 300*(1-.45) or 165. The person casting the spell on you would see the damage as 165(-335).

"So in this case, we a spell that would have only done 75 points of damage before 1.65, now doing 165.

"This change was designed to address the rare cases of extremely high resists (65% and up), without penalizing those with low to moderate resists.(20-40%)."

Now, let me just remind everyone � the example above is JUST an example. The math in the game won't work exactly that way, because in the game, you're wearing armor, debuffs are in action, etc. But for the purposes of explaining the changes, the example needed to be as simple as possible.
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Just to add my opinion:

With Patch 1.69 it should be like this: Item-, Spell- and Racial-Resists are put all together and then being reduced by the debuff... Even below zero.

Don't know about how the stated value will be applied to the target.. If skill bonus is applied or not, the way it's calculated when dropping below zero and so on..

the resist debuffs on uthgard have many bugs with them. the whole thing needs to be re worked.

I don't know about patches and timeline but what i do know is how uth resist debuffs, for our current patch setting (and i believe future), should work like this:

1st tier are resist buffs are debuffed in an 1:1 ratio, meaning with 30% debuff (which is actually 37,5% modified by 25% delve bonus) a resist buff of 24% is cut to 0% and the leftover % (13%) goes to the next tier.

2nd tier resists are from items and racial resists which are debuffed on an 2:1 ratio, meaning the 13% leftover debuff value is capable (depending on rounding) of lowering a fully templated char with zero racial resist from 26% to 20%.

I don't know where aom and other ras go in this equation, but i suppose its tier 1.

So here are some Live tests:

I got: Norse and Dwarf Runemaster. Norse got 5% cold resist as a racial bonus.

First off: Debuffing into negative values, applying 25-bonus-% cause of specc bonus:







In this case the runemasters had no resists at all and got debuffed into negative values. You can add 25% to the half of the stated value (one half debuffs spell-resists the other one item, racial and so on) of the debuff to get the actual amount that's being debuffed.

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Now some chat logs:

This is the dwarf runemaster debuffing the norse with maxed cold resists + racial bonus (31%, max. amount that can be debuffed.. 50% of 62%) Once the debuff still wears on, afterwards it's gone:

*** Chat Log Opened: Sun Jun 05 12:19:35 2011

[12:19:36] You begin casting a Vex of Ice spell!
[12:19:37] You are already casting a spell! You prepare this spell as a followup!
[12:19:37] Kershok seems vulnerable to cold!
[12:19:37] You begin casting a Obsidian Strike spell!
[12:19:40] You hit Kershok for 211 damage!
[12:19:46] You begin casting a Obsidian Strike spell!
[12:19:48] You hit Kershok for 123 (-55) damage!

*** Chat Log Closed: Sun Jun 05 12:19:49 2011

As you can see, one time I hit on 0% resists, afterwards they are back on.

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Norse RM hits Dward RM with maxed cold resists (26%)

*** Chat Log Opened: Sun Jun 05 12:20:15 2011

[12:20:16] You begin casting a Vex of Ice spell!
[12:20:17] You are already casting a spell! You prepare this spell as a followup!
[12:20:18] Kershak seems vulnerable to cold!
[12:20:18] You begin casting a Obsidian Strike spell!
[12:20:20] You hit Kershak for 226 (+11) damage!
[12:20:25] You begin casting a Obsidian Strike spell!
[12:20:28] Kershak resists the effect!
[12:20:29] You begin casting a Obsidian Strike spell!
[12:20:31] You hit Kershak for 138 (-49) damage!

*** Chat Log Closed: Sun Jun 05 12:20:33 2011

Same as above, but the dwarf got debuffed below 0%.. It's not just a display bug, it's actually adding damage!

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Will try to test a bit with shaman's resist buff..

There we go:

Shaman Level 50, Troll (+5% Matters Resists)



Without Resist-Buff, maxed resists.



After Debuff, 31% of resists got stripped.



Resists with equip + last matter resist buff



After Debuff: 31% of normal resists stripped, just half of the resist buffs value..

It is in fact the maximun value that a resist buff can be debuffed, check here: no heat resists + yellow resist buff



After Debuff: 0 - 31 + 16/2 = -23

In my opinion these tests verify the formula from freddyshouse that I posted above. It was about our patch level back then and it wasn't changed till now.

Still an open question what exactly got nerfed with 1.81 but we will find a way to get our old formula back with 1.69

Anything else I should be testing? Or is this already implemented like this and Braxis is wrong about it?

Uthgard resist debuffs are bugged atm because of their effects on mobs however strange it may seem.

All i know for certain is that here the +25% delve is not implemented.

Kirillow wrote:Still an open question what exactly got nerfed with 1.81 but we will find a way to get our old formula back with 1.69

the different effect of the debuff towards the different sources of resists had been implemented. before that it was a simple 1% debuff negates 1% of resists regardles of its source.
it was a horrible time, combined with resipierce not beeing caped at 10% debuff nuke teams were running with 80+% resi reduction wich mitgates even boad+red resists.

Right, I got that feeling too when reading older forum threads.. It seems like Mythic was trying to establish a system that would make it more difficult to debuff enemies below 0% which pretty much always happened before they splitted it up.

Before the patch with max resist from items and spells (purple!) you would have still been debuffed to 0%.. After 1.80 you would still benefit from resist spells but if you had none you wouldn't have been as screwed as before.. That's the feeling I got..

The way the work even nowadays on Live is supposed to reduce your hopefully capped resists to a maximum of -5%.. With some Resist spells you would still be in the positive numbers..

Next thing I'll do is testing the system of Uthgard and create a bug report for this.. Seems like we gathered all information necessary..

For 1.69 we will need a new solution, let's see if this will be customized (and stay like it's today) or if we will get a resist-debuff-buff

Kirillow wrote:Next thing I'll do is testing the system of Uthgard and create a bug report for this.. Seems like we gathered all information necessary..

at the moment the system on uthgard is quite strange.

26Item+25buff % resists leed to = 1% after debuff
26item% => 1% after debuff
17item% => 1% after debuff
0% => after debuff it was a negativ value i cant remember

as a sidenote to verify the 62.5% debuffvalue in classic times just watch the "Dem Hibbies" vid - it is mainly from ench pov and you can quite easy estimate 12-13% negativ resists when they are faceing mid setgroups (wich will have 26+25 resists)

Tankqull wrote:17item% => 1% after debuff

are u sure on that one? I'm pretty sure that I debuffed into negative values quite often in rvr and not only ppl running without SC, which rarely happens...most of the time targets will have 1% resist after debuff but sometimes i get like 2 or 3% bonus dmg...so the 17% -> 1% can't be correct imho

as a sidenote to verify the 62.5% debuffvalue in classic times just watch the "Dem Hibbies" vid - it is mainly from ench pov and you can quite easy estimate 12-13% negativ resists when they are faceing mid setgroups (wich will have 26+25 resists)

at least currently on live debuff-values receive spec-bonus and debuff for 62,5% in total...from what I remember from live (patch level ~1.3x-1.4x) I debuffed for ~60% as well...at least I got -50% on most targets and SC wasn't out yet so most ppl had like 10-15% resist

however - nice to see, that others care for resist debuffs ...I did some tests on live comparing it to uth in my caba-bugs thread as well - for instance on uth resist-debuffs are halved on mobs (25%) as well, while they do the full debuff-value (62,5%) on mobs on live

Jezzmin wrote:

Tankqull wrote:17item% => 1% after debuff

are u sure on that one? I'm pretty sure that I debuffed into negative values quite often in rvr and not only ppl running without SC, which rarely happens...most of the time targets will have 1% resist after debuff but sometimes i get like 2 or 3% bonus dmg...so the 17% -> 1% can't be correct imho

however - nice to see, that others care for resist debuffs ...I did some tests on live comparing it to uth in my caba-bugs thread as well - for instance on uth resist-debuffs are halved on mobs (25%) as well, while they do the full debuff-value (62,5%) on mobs on live

yes i´m pretty sure - negativ debuff values seem to ocurr when someone is running around with yellow resists.
item resis reduced to 1% + buffs 16 -25=- 9% => -8% in the end. this could be aswell the reason why you are only seeing 255 reduction wehn nuking mobs as they do not have any resi buffs