Now this proposal isn't one i come to lightly, as i do like the feel of old archery. But because of balance issues, archery bugs, lack of archery testing that is possible and many other issues, i think switching the the new archery for all three archers would be a change that could fix many issues on uthgard. Here is some benefits of doing so.

1. Archery Live Testing
- Before we where not able to test much about archery on live and mostly have to depend on old videos, old discussions, old logs, and here say. If we went to the new system, all of it could be tested and since new archery has been on live for awhile now, there hasn't been much revising to it.

2. Improve Utility of Archery
- Currently skills like volley are not being used at all anymore, as it serves almost no purpose. But on the new system, volley is a single shot that releases all arrows into an area and hits who is in it. That can be tested on live to get as current as possible. Also the addition of special shots will assist when old RAs come and archers are no longer as effective in stealth and more vulnerable to stuns with longer purge reuse.

3. Fixing of current bugs on uthgard
- Currently there is many issues on uthgard with bugs with archery. Like Rapid Fire, and sometimes Critshot, Trueshot. But on new system, Rapid Fire, CS, Long Shot are all shot types of there own, and no longer a toggle.

4. Balance between the Archers
- As we all know, the Ranger is the superior archer on uthgard. Mostly because of there buff line, and how effective duel wielding is vs 2H weapons. Since the scout lacks buffs, many don't like the idea of playing on, and hunters get buffs, but not as good as the ranger. And the issues with there spear and getting past defenses, while dual wield cuts evade in half. So if we went to the new system, the scouts would finally get a buff line just like the rangers PF, and hunters would save a few points because there buffs are moved to archery, allowing them to put more into there weapon. Also they will get base STR, if they wanted to use 2H sword instead of spear. And the ranger does benefit too, they will no longer need to spec 5 lines anymore, as there PF is now in Archery. Also this will give hunters Auto Training.

5. Being True Archers
- As many know, many archers will spec for 35 bow and go for more melee. Since there is little utility with bows and the damage difference between lower spec and higher spec isn't enough, to have to give up there melee. Rangers being the most that do this, because of the number of spec lines and lack of bow utility, there is many melee rangers. Some bow spec rangers, but normally stay with many others, since they cant take anyone in melee. And with old ra's coming, i don't see full bow spec being an option. But in the new system, the idea bow spec will be 50 or close to 50, as bow shots are now more like spells, which you get each few level. Same goes for getting better buffs. This allows all archers to have a high bow spec, and decent melee. And with unique bow shots like Point Blank, Cold/Heat, Poison Shot, and others. It will give each archer the utility for each situation to master as an archer, but also not being gimped in melee.

6. Future Changes to the Game Client
- It is always possible that in the future, mythic may remove files from the client, that will screw up are classic archery system even more. Going to the new system will protect that.


Now since the server will be going to old RA's, it will change the archers for the worse. As bow specs will be much more difficult to be successful at, without grping up. Stealth will be slower and kiting will suffer. Lack of reliable purge, will make many fights end soon, as your stunned for 9sec, or CC. But this kind of change would be agenst the classic feel, that uthgard is going to aim for. But i think some things are needed and such a change, would fix many problems on uthgard, with current bugs and realm balance for all archers.

But all that depends on what the other archers think of this kind of change, and what they think of new archery.

You make some good points, Eclipsed, but I for one wouldn't play an archer with DAoC's new archery system. It's a pale imitation of WoW/Guild Wars "archery" where archers are just spell-casters with a physical damage component.

Old archery is a unique mechanic among mmorpgs. The system has a style and methodology that is completely different from the pew-pew-pew ABILITY SPAM of every other archery system out there and that's what makes it fun.

You can't even nock an arrow with new archery.

Ya that is something i didnt like of the new archery also. I like the feel of the old system, where you get to hold your shot and fire when your ready, not the way casters cast. But it does solve alot of issues and people who are use to the old system, would have to get use the the new way the archery works. I dont see any other way to fix balance between the archers, without doing something that mythic didnt do. I wouldnt mind just keeping the current system, but adding a buffline to archery line and removing PF and the buffs in BC. So its like new archery setup, exept we dont get the new shots. But that would also be custom, but get to keep the old archery feel. But then we are still stuck on a system that cant be tested and still have the RF bugs and so on.

we go back to 1.69 not up to 1.85+

Id hate to be blunt, but from my experience of the Newer Archery System... It would be way over the top for this server to have.

It just has too much of a range in damage types (Melee Type, Magic Type, Dot, Volley, SIege, and more buffs...) Plus Id like to add that Archers on Live are more like Stealth casters there...

would have to half all delves or something because of way lower hps

finally a thema i can 100% agree with eclipsed^^

but i also see the points why new archery has to be customized if it comes (which will never happen).

There would be no need to reduce the bow shot damages, because everyone has less HP on uthgard. And that is because the bow shots are still dependent on Dex as a damage stat, and compared to live with buff bots for maxed decked out dex of 400s, we will be at like 280s - 350s <-- only possible with aug RAs and pot. So the much lower dex will make the shots do less damage compared to live anyway.

And yes i know we are not going to 1.85... i mean 1.88 <-- archery patch. We are going to 1.69. As i said in my first post. But when 1.69 comes with old ra's the archers will suffer the most. All of them. Stealth, RAs and effectiveness of bow will all be lowered and many will possibly only run in grps or switch to assassin classes. Currently archers like the Ranger are difficult to beat, especially the higher rank ones with IP2/3, High MoS, Purge, PD4-5 and so on. But when old ras come, there will be no MoS, and when camo is down, they will be vulnerable for 10min. They will have less absorb with no PD, but can get avoid pain, but the cost of getting that and IP isn't likely to be done, unless someone is very high rank, and even then AP is still a active RA and not passive anymore. And with IP on a longer timer and same with Purge, it will make them also vulnerable for 30min after using.

Because of all these problems, i think such a change to new archery would help and not be over the top. Now if we kept the new RA system or stealth system, then i would say we didn't need it. But then again, this change also helps the scout and hunter, from being under dogs as archers.

And yes there is additional shots like cold and heat shots, but they still are deduced by AF/ABS. They are not spells, they just shoot like spells, which i hate. Now there is acid shot and poison shots, but they do have longer draw times and the initial hit is less dmg, making the over all dmg, not as high as you'd think. And the acid/poison shot dot ticks would have to be extended, as live has the reduced dot durations. Basically double the dot time, and the ticks as it is on here.

But if the hunter and scouts are fine with what they got and will have with old RAs now, then keeping the current system maybe ok then. But i think it would help them the most with balance.

Implement WS/defense penetration, and double the Hunter pet's damage. This will make the Hunter competitive. Not great, but competitive.

For the Scout, I'm a bit skeptical of the "Scout is gimp" line that gets mentioned a lot.

The Scout is the best group archer. Guard in a stealth duo is really strong. Slam can end a fight if the target doesn't have purge up. I think intelligent use of stuns is the key to success here.

As for the buff problem, a Dex/Qui charge is easy to come by and with it you match or almost equal the Hunter self-buff. A properly buffed saracen Scout will have more dex/qui than most Hunters and he doesn't have to spec for it. My Hunter with +93 Dex/Qui red self-buff, 45 bow spec, and 5.3 spd bow was still out-damaged by lower RR Scouts with their 5.7 spd cannons. And I had to completely gimp my melee to do that damage. This is not a problem for the Scout.

What the Scout really lacks are good kiting options. No speed shout, and their RR5 is only good for ganking solos with their BA group. That's why Scouts shouldn't play as snipers. Rangers out-damage you and Hunters out-kite you (p.s. Rangers also out-kite you). You should play to your strength, which is defense and stun. Load up on MoB and PD. Forget about Falcon Eye (it does nothing for Crit Shot), and don't waste too many points on Aug Dex. We all love that sweet dex but spending 10 RPs for 22 points of dex is very inefficient. If you spec correctly your bow damage will be good no matter what you do. Load up on defensive RAs, use a dex/qui charge+pot, and let your bow take care of itself.

Play your Scout like a turtle with a bazooka.

disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I would advice you to try out the new Archery system before you want it on Uth. It was a MASSIVE Buff to Archers, and even without Buffbots, Archers would go way over the top (especially scouts)...so you would need to customize it to make it work on Uth. And if you customize, you can just aswell fix Old RAs so that Archers are playable with them

Seyha wrote:What the Scout really lacks are good kiting options.

27 second anytime follow up snare....
9 second anytime stun....

Slam gets purged.

An any-time snare sounds great, except that any dual-wield/la class has access to a back-snare that they will spam as soon as they see the Scout turn to run. Since most of these classes swing at near cap speed the Scout probably won't sprint out of melee range before he is also snared.

I'm not saying it will never work. It's more like it will work once, and then that enemy will know to keep his finger on the back-snare when he's fighting you. Or if he's an assassin he'll just root your f*cking ass to the ground with str/con debuff because arrows weigh a ton on this server.

Assuming we are going to old RA system, you need to look at the situation like that. As i stated, this change would be more idea if we went to old ra system, and even if they do make the changes to pot/charge buffing, it will affect scouts the most, as they don't currently get a buff line. But new archery will give all the needed buffs to be an archer.

Now making WS affect defense penetration, will help a hunter, but not that much. As your enemy will also be getting that bonus too. And comparing to like my ranger, who has 40 PF and 39 pierc at rr5. I got 1155 melee WS. A hunter with similar spec would only have 1132 melee WS. Even with 44 Spear he would only hit 1167 WS. But if they got the str buff with the new system at 40 Archery, there WS at 39 and 44 spear would be. 39 = 1209 WS , 44 = 1244 WS. While the ranger would still be getting the same buffs as before, so there WS would stay the same, as there damage will. But this also does give them the option to up there CD or raise pierc more if they wanted. But at the same spec, the hunter would benefit from the extra str buff. Same apply for the scouts melee. There is no base buff higher then 20 str, for a solo scout.

But if you look at a charplan app, youl see that the scout will have to choose if they want full archery, as 50 archery and 42 shield will suck up alot of there points and possibly require them to have much less melee spec, then the other archers. So they will not be invincible.

And yes i did check out the new archery, when it first came out and after. Why would it be over the top. It still is affected by AF/Abs, it still requires DEX for bow dmg and instead of draw time being based on the bow, it will be based on the shots them self. So the hunter will get equal draw time shots as all archers. And new archery draw time is based on dex now, not QUI, so lower QUI classes will not suffer for not having 250 qui. Uthgard doesn't have over caps, + to archery damage, buff bots and so on, so comparing the performance on live, or that i50 server, isn't how it will be here. Less bonuses to your char, like health, also means less damage stats to your bow damage.

Now if the other archers think it will be fine AFTER the RA/Patch change, then it should be fine to keep the current system. But after the change, the archer will be much less then what they currently are.

The Hunter will benefit more from WS/defense penetration than any melee class in the game, because my testing proved that defense penetration is fractional, and the Hunter already has terrible defense.

Nothing divided by something is... nothing.

Actually, if this thread is just hypothetical wish fulfillment, then allow Hunters to spec parry. No extra skill points, no parry styles, just parry spec. It would balance the class perfectly. You could even call it a classic change, because IIRC Hunters had parry in the beta. durp

2H reduces parry by half if i am correct. Also the hunters pet should reduce a targets evade by some amount. Now i know you posted on that, and if you test it on live to prove how well it should reduce evade, then that should help your situation.

And my ideas are based on what they get with the new archery, not giving something they never had.