The main question we are trying to fiqure out is. Does providing buffs to anyone, have any kinda inpack on classes with self buffs and if so why and if not why.

I say yes, because any class that gets self buffs, suffer ether dmg per stat, hp per stat or lack defenses or other skills , that non buffing classes get. So when you face an enemy with any kinda buff, that he/she couldnt get on there own, that you also get by a spec line or for free. It lowers the benifit your getting from your self buff. Example champions str/con buff vs a warrior with str/con charge. Warrior gains 56 str/con more then origenaly, the champion doestnt gain from his buff, because he is designed to use it to balance his class with others. So the warrior has more health and dmg stat, compared to the champion.

Other factor also affect non buffing classes like a nightshade or ranger, who gain more qui as they level, compared to other classes who do not. More QUI = better defense and swing faster. But if there enemys can buff dex/qui, it allows there enemys to swing faster too. Now the nightshade can also get a dex/qui charge/pot, and the ranger can spec for his. But the ranger gained more qui as he lvled and was givien a dex/qui buff too. So if you give it to all, it makes his buffline less unique to his class, same goes for all buffs and classes that can gain bufflines.

On live mythic intended buffs for these classes to be a unique feature of them, but over the years these buffs where shared to others as a way to sell buff botting, kinda like how they sold expansions. And after years they improved these bufflines with extra features, or like the ranger, hunter and now scout, gave them free buffs by way of bow spec, and saved these classes spec pts. If we are classic, we can not go down that road a little, then just stop. Mythic's way of seling something is make it OP, then fix it in the future at some point. If we give buffs to all, we are selling the buff feature like they did with buffbots, but with no plans to fix it in the future for these self buffing classes. If we go to old RAs and older patch, to get a real classic feel, you have to go all the way and remove some pots and charges that give some classes feature they where not intended. Heck you can even remove stat debuff charges too. Some classes like the champion, nightshade/assasins get stat debuffs for a reason. Same goes for haste, AF, and so on. But if you remove them all, that really cuts down alchmey, so youd have to pick and choose what affects these classes the most. One is the stat buffs.

Many will disagree, and look at live with all the charges and pots, but where all these features added from the start, and where self buffing classes able to buff them self from the start and if so, where self buffing classes stronger then non self buffing classes, long ago in solo fights ? Did mythic add charged buffs, pots as a way to balance self buffers or to sell the idea of grinding alchemy and raiding for days to an item.

Eclipsed wrote:
Many will disagree, and look at live with all the charges and pots, but where all these features added from the start, and where self buffing classes able to buff them self from the start and if so, where self buffing classes stronger then non self buffing classes, long ago in solo fights ? Did mythic add charged buffs, pots as a way to balance self buffers or to sell the idea of grinding alchemy and raiding for days to an item.

it is true

To give some of you an idea , what i mean by dmg per stat, hp per stat and how having self buffs affect it, here is a full list of what each class get. Based on the charplan. May not be 100% currect. And no buffs mean, no stat buffs.

Armsman - 3.72 WS per stat - 4.85 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Cabalist - No Melee - 2.8 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Cleric - No Melee - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*
Friar - 3.2 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*
Infiltrator - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Mercenary - 3.72 WS per stat - 4.4 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Minstrel - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Paladin - 3.2 WS per stat - 3.74 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Reaver - 3.2 WS per stat - 3.74 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Scout - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Sorcerer - No Melee - 2.8 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Theurgist - No Melee - 2.8 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Wizard - No Melee - 2.8 hp per con - No Self Buffs

Berserker - 3.72 WS per stat - 4.4 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Bonedancer - No Melee - 2.8 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Healer - No Melee - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*
Hunter - 3.2 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*
Runemaster - No Melee - 2.8 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Savage - 3.2 WS per stat - 4.4 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Shadowblade - 3 WS per stat - 3.74 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Shaman - No Melee - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*
Skald - 3.2 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Spiritmaster - No Melee - 2.8 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Thane - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*
Warrior - 3.88 WS per stat - 3.85 hp per con - No Self Buffs

Animist - No Melee - 2.8 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Bard - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*
Blademaster - 3.72 WS per stat - 4.4 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Champion - 3.2 WS per stat - 3.74 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*
Druid - No Melee - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*
Eldritch - No Melee - 2.8 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Enchanter - No Melee - 2.8 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Hero - 3.72 WS per stat - 4.85 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Mentalist - No Melee - 2.8 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Nightshade - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Ranger - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*
Valewalker - 3.6 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Warden - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*

As you can see almost all classes with self stat buffs, are on a lower dmg table and lower hp table then most. Some others are on low dmg table and or low hp table, but have something that makes up for it, like debuffs, haste, better defenses, proc styles, spells & CC (aka casters), and armor/abs. All classes that gain self buffs, require them to be placed into balance with others, and giving buff access to all, reduces the effectivness of the self buffing classes feature to buff themself above some other classes.

open again


please stay on topic and discuss (and not just flame eclipse for bringing up this topic, just think of it as me bringing it up instead of eclipse because I agree with him)

Thanks Nix.

But anyway, If this topic is something uthgard would like to try, i would recommend a trial and error with fiquring out the best ways to do this. Like of course, if you made a change to remove the charged buffs/pots, which include str, con, dex, str/con, dex/qui , haste pots and str/con, dex/qui and haste charges , see how it affects these classes that gain these as self buffs and if they become over the top, like some would like to believe they would. If they do, or only a few or one does, see why and what can be done, that isnt a custom change. Possibly just a type of bug not related to the buffs.

Also this kinda change could only work on old RA system, since newer RA's reflect ToA and mass buffbots and alchemy and charges. With old RAs, it will give some non self buffing classes, like shield slaming classes and casters CC's more effectiveness, because of long reuse on purge and the possiblity of RA for cast speed, melee speed, and so on.

Now on the issue of those special items like the necklace of the body and the people who worked hard to get it. The issues with leaving charged buffs still on these items, still effect those self buffs. Necklace of the body nerfs classes like the champion, but not a ranger. But other items with dex/qui charge nerf classes like rangers or friars, but not other classes who do not gain that as a buff. Now you could reduce there value to 30, but that still reduces the effectiveness, by less then before, but still. One idea you could do is replace these buffed charges with something like Damage add, haste, or other charges that could be useful in the sper of the moment before hitting combat, by making them short duration, like 30-60 sec. And since you can not gain haste, dmg adds, or what ever else without working to get these, it does make these items unique and worth getting. Now some will think its weak, but if your facing an enemy that doesnt buff for a dmg add or haste, it does give you a small edge above them. And that is what we want, a small edge, not a big edge. If they benifit to much, it makes RvR unbalanced by too much for new comers and to dependent on outside , unintended skills to win. I also believe str/con, dex/qui debuff charges should be removed and added to special items to replace there old stat charges. Debuffs are unique to some classes, and giving it to anyone, reduces the effective ness to classes like a champion or the assaisns poison. But with a debuff on like the necklace of the body, so instead of str/con charge, its a str/con debuff charge. and if you couldnt easly gain access to these debuffs, im sure people would find these items worth buying and raiding for also. But that is just some of my suggestions. I expect the staff to go with what they believe is best. And consider other players suggestions too, as long as they are valid suggestions and not just bashing, or too off the wall lol.

So id suggest this.

* Remove buffing pots (base & spec stats, haste)
* Remove charged buffs (Str/Con, Dex/Qui, Acuity, Haste)
* Remove charged debuffs from Alchemey (Str/Con, Dex/Qui)
* Replace current items that had charged buffs on them, with unique charges like damage adds, debuffs, haste, but only as short durations.
* Leave in Procs and Reactives in Alchemy/Items since they are only 10% chance.
* Reduce these debuffs (str/con , dex/qui) on these items to like 30 value, then 56, since that is too high of a value on a unbuffed server and compared to classes that get debuff spells, 56 value is quiet high.
* Change to old RA system, to make the lost of buffs , less stressful on all classes, by making CC, slams, and hasteing RAs more effective.

These are just some ideas. Can use some, none or all, up to the staff.

Eclipsed wrote:As you can see almost all classes with self stat buffs, are on a lower dmg table and lower hp table then most. Some others are on low dmg table and or low hp table, but have something that makes up for it, like debuffs, haste, better defenses, proc styles, spells & CC (aka casters), and armor/abs. All classes that gain self buffs, require them to be placed into balance with others, and giving buff access to all, reduces the effectivness of the self buffing classes feature to buff themself above some other classes.

The classes are built to be different. For example, you can't compare the purpose of an armsman with a friar as far as gameplay goes. The armsman is meant to have a big damage output, while the friar is built as a secondary healer with a bit of melee capabilities. Same with warrior/shaman, hero/warden.

In my opinion, buff charges are just a way to keep the game balanced for all as far as soloing goes. Because, let's face it, they don't affect small groups or 8-mans. Removing them would make wardens, rangers, champs seriously hard to kill alone, if not impossible. From this point of view, I can understand why a ranger would make such a post, but it's fairness towards all three realms is inexistent though and removing buff charges/pots would only give an obvious advantage in the solo area to the realm with most self-buffing classes that are able to deal damage.

Eclipsed wrote:
Infiltrator - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Minstrel - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Scout - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - No Self Buffs

Hunter - 3.2 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*
Shadowblade - 3 WS per stat - 3.74 hp per con - No Self Buffs

Nightshade - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - No Self Buffs
Ranger - 3 WS per stat - 3.6 hp per con - *Self Buffing Class*

As you can see, the stealthers are all relatively balanced in terms of self buffing or not...

Stop comparing apples and oranges - Daoc was never intended to be a game where any class can kill any class. It's a group/realm game and the only classes that aren't so much intended to be grouped are the stealth classes.

Charges and Pots are important for a balanced solo and small scale rvr. They shouldn't be removed. I'd even prefer to make them more friendly for casual players. Increase Pot Duration to 20 minnutes, reduce the use timer to some seconds so that more players use Pots to buff them up.

I can't see any disadvantages for selfbuffing classes. They still get better buffs, they don't have to pay for their selfbuffs and their selfbuffs are always up. In addition, they have a much easier time to manage their Pot and Charge Timers.

This server is a classic server. Potions and charges were introduced even before SI was released. They are part of classic DAoC and were a counter to overpowered selfbuff classes (Friar for example). Everybody who once played on a ARS "classic" Live Server knows how big the difference between a selfbuffed class and a non-selfbuffed-non-potioned/charged-class is - that is no balance and no fair rvr any more. Only with Charges and Pots there was balance.And it's obvious why: Red Dex/Quick means +75 Dex/Quick - thats as much Dex and Quick as you can get from a capped Temp. Try to imagine to play with a capped Temp against people without Temp - fair? In my opninion, it is not good for rvr to remove Pots or charges. They are needed to balance things out.

Sigh. There are two facts here:

1.) Eclipsed is absolutely right about non-buffing classes benefiting more from buffs than self-buffing classes, and about the fact that most self-buffing classes have buffs to make them equal to non-buff classes. For example, the mighty overpowered Friar does not gain DEX at all while leveling! Imagine an Armsman without gaining STR per level, or a caster without INT.

2.) Even though in theory buffs and charges should be removed, IN PRACTICE, here on Uthgard, they shouldn't and I'm pretty sure they won't be. Charge values have been nerfed, BP prices increased, timers for re-use are higher here then on Live, so we have a nice balanced system in place and no need for removal of anything.

EOD.

Nymeros wrote:1.) Eclipsed is absolutely right about non-buffing classes benefiting more from buffs than self-buffing classes, and about the fact that most self-buffing classes have buffs to make them equal to non-buff classes. For example, the mighty overpowered Friar does not gain DEX at all while leveling! Imagine an Armsman without gaining STR per level, or a caster without INT.

The high-lighted thing is what I really doubt and what I already explained to Krinton3 some posts ago: To be equal with non self-buffing classes it would in my opinion and seen with my eyes of long-time daoc experience on various servers be enough to spec the self-buffs to about lvl 20. Everything more gives you an advantage above that "basic level" what Krinton3 called it compared to classes without self-buffs! And yes, the Friar was - and still is especially in classic settings - extremely strong because of its strong self-buffs that lifted it above the "basic level".

Let us use Eclipsed's Ranger as an example here: It gets Str, AF, Dex/Qui with stronger values than buff potions and charges can provide that lift him above the "basic level" and - very important! - do so without activating any charge or potion timer. Also you can activate them quickly one after another so you will always have all of them up at any given time. Beside that you still can get str/con-charge, dex-pot, con-pot and haste-pot and still have 6 free timers. This means that self-buffing classes of course have the same possibility to use buff potions and charges than everybody else but they do not need as much of them. Last but not least we should also keep the Ranger's damage add in mind. Now let us imagine a shadowblade trying the same: It will need str/con charge, dex/qui charge, AF charge, con potion, dex potion, str potion, haste potion. Let us also asume for reasons of comparison that it uses a damage add charge at least once. This leaves only 2 free timers and only 2 minutes until the first charge / potion must be rebuffed.

So what is my conclusion here:

1) The thesis that self-buffing classes need their self-buffs the be on the same "basic level" as non self-buffing is wrong per se if you use self-buffs higher than level 20.

2) Additionally to 1) buffing with self-buffs is a lot more convenient as they are much more reliable and do not eat up any timers.

3) Hence buff potions and charges can stay ingame because they do not neglect the self-buffing abilities of self-buffing classes. In fact they can (sic!) reduce some unequalities to self-buffing classes with highly specced self-buffs.

To many are looking at this the wrong way. Seems like everyone thinks that every class is equal with no buffs on, then if a self buffing class uses his/her feature to self buff, it makes them unbalanced.

Only problem with that theory is, most non self buffing classes are on a higher damage table and more hp per con. What does that mean, well it means the get more damage and more health, from less stats. Reason for that is because they are not able to self buff them self. Now why would mythic add such classes that could. Well in the case of wardens, bards, druids, friars, clerics, shamans and so on is because it makes them more ideal for grabing for your group. Now mythic could of left these classes on the same tables as non self buffing classes, but that wouldnt be a good idea because if they choose to go out solo, these buffs would put them over the top, so mythic solves that by reduceing there effectivenss per stat, compared to other classes.

Now some may bring up other classes who have low dmg tables/hp, like assasins or casters/hybrids with spells. Well in the case of a assasin, you cant compare the stats of a ranger self buffed vs a infi lets say. Youd have to comare it to a 118 str/con debuffed ranger who is self buffed to a infi. Why do you think mythic gave them such high value debuff. Its because there also on weaker tables. And casters and hybrids with spells, like minstrels, get DD spells , songs and so on that balance them out. 2 DD shouts is quiet strong sometimes, along with a anytime stun shout, when its up of course and a mez, and speed.

To many people are use to the current game play. Shield Slam + No purge = very good chance to win vs some classes like self buffing ones. PA + fallowup stun = Good chance to win, and so on. Scout Slam + Critshot or Volley = I win. There is to many i win buttons for everyone and old ra's will just make it worse. Since purge will be down more, archers will be easy targets to be PA without camo up.

And to the one that says self buffing classes dont have to spend to get there buffs, is incurrect. Some of us have to spend spec pts for ares, while some dont, but all self buffing classes have to buff or else we are below balanced. And yes charges and alchemy has been around for some time, but self buffing classes have been around longer. Lets go to patch 1.48, no SC no Alchemy, No DF necklace. Now what, mythic added those for balance or to get you suckers drowling, which = grinding and hours and days of raiding, which just kept you busy to keep the money coming in to mythic.

And if you think some classes like a friar will be over powered, maybe there is a bug with the class that needs to be addressed. Mythic didnt allwes have alchemy and charged buffbotting.

Well then, ill tell you some history lessons....
Back then, about long time ago, there were no buffpots nor buffcharges on uthgard.
Try to guess how the whole situation looked like back then.

There were some stealthers, but about 80% of stealthers were rangers with 40-42 pathspec, because of buffs ofc. They also were the strongest stealthers because of their buffs back then.

There were some solos, but those solos were 90% warden, friar and thane, because there has not been a single class that stood a chance against those selfbuffclasses back then.

Now, this is how its been, please tell me how this would change if you remove the buffpots/charges.

This whole story actually started because eclipsed was owned by several fullcharged infis/sbs over and over, and now hes asking for a nerf.

And for your, so called balance about buff and nobuff classes etc...

Basically, there are 4 levels of ws/hits rise per point!
1st tanks! warrior, arms, hero, zerk, bm, merc
2nd hybrids/stealther! infi, sb, ns, ranger, hunter, scout, pala, champ, thane, skald, etc etc....
3rd supporters! druid, warden, bard, healer, cleric, shammy, etc....
4th casters! all casters who can use staves only.

This are the basic levels, and as you see, ranger is in the same as other stealthers, so that its quite stupid to compare a ranger to a bm!

Now, there are some little variances on those basic levels aswell, for balance purposes. Lets stay at your example about stealthers.

Infi: has more points to spec skills, but overall nothing special
SB: hits always with both weapons, highest baststr from all assassins possible.
NS: has instantDD to push dmg a little, highest dex and highest qui possible.
Hunter: slow spear with average styles, slightly higher dmg, some buffs and pet to increase to-hit chance vs other stealthers, shortest bow range.
Scout: no selfbuffs, no special meleedmg, but best stealther-defense due to shieldspec(slam accessable), highest bow range.
Ranger: two weapons(highest archer meleedmg) with pretty good styles(backsnare, sidestun, very high GR accessable), but a bit lower ws/hits growth, selfbuffs possible, medium bow range.

And now comes the argument: assassins have 118 str/con debuff poison. Well, i hope you know, that they actually have to invest a lot of points to get it. Same goes for your ranger-buffs. Now then, if you invest points to get buffs, why shouldnt assassins be allowed to invest points to get debuffs? Now you say: assassins debuffs are cheaper than ranger buffs. Well, assassins are made to fight melee, archers are made to fight on range, its not normal for any archer to twoshot/twohit an assassins.

Is the point clear now? All stealthers are different, but overall balanced, even if no buffs are used/all of them fullbuffed. And still, ranger/hunter can get higher buffs if they wanted to.

If you want to only have rangers, firars, wardens, thanes running around rvr solo, vs usual FGs, remove buffpots, and there wont be any stealthwars anymore, because theres gonna be a huge rangerzerg out there waiting for soloers if any decide to show themselves.

Lets go down to v1.40! i would be really really happy about that! and my cabby aswell! ns, desease, debuff, DD DD and any enemy dies without purge up, or just qc-root and run, what are you gonna do without purge? Stun/deseasepet works fine aswell, ah, nuking at up to -50% resi will be very fun with v1.40!

Der_Eisbaer wrote:<cut>

1) The thesis that self-buffing classes need their self-buffs the be on the same "basic level" as non self-buffing is wrong per se if you use self-buffs higher than level 20.

2) Additionally to 1) buffing with self-buffs is a lot more convenient as they are much more reliable and do not eat up any timers.

3) Hence buff potions and charges can stay ingame because they do not neglect the self-buffing abilities of self-buffing classes. In fact they can (sic!) reduce some unequalities to self-buffing classes with highly specced self-buffs.

1.) No. Even if you look just by numbers that would be highly debatable, but when you take into account groupability, and group performance (the basis of this game), the fact that some self-buffs don't stack with group etc, you get an extremely non-buff class favored situation. Mythic themselves commented on this issue numerous times, and their conclusion was the same as mine.

Not to mention, even if you WERE right, the fact is that non-buff classes gain more with charges and buffs now then they lose without them, just by class design. Pure math.


2.) Agreed, yet not enough to justify introducing pots/charges, as self buffs aren't FREE, you have to spend spec points into them to get them, spec points many people would spend elswhere, and with that we come to:


3.) They DO neglect them because they are either almost the same or stronger and do not cost spec points. People spec their chars totaly around buffs/charges (take the ranger class as an example, with very low Pathfinding), thus having more spec points than they should have and creating imbalance.

However (as I already said several times) I do agree that they can (and should) stay ingame, but only because of the specific Uthgard setting, Old Frontiers and all-around soloing difficulty.

Satz wrote:There were some solos, but those solos were 90% warden, friar and thane, because there has not been a single class that stood a chance against those selfbuffclasses back then.

That was pretty much the same on the DAoC ARS-Servers (so called "classic" servers) which proves that highly specced self-buffs lift self-buffing classes above the "basic level" and does not - as you, Eclipsed, repeatedly stated wrong - make them just equal.

Your still looking at self buffs and pots equal value to each class, like every class have the same stats, same dmg tables and ablities, when that isnt true. Lets use your ranger vs SB example

Luri ranger
_________
50+11 pierc
26+11 CD
34+11 Stealth
40 PF (Not Possible to get Higher without lower pierc)

Buffs*
Self Dex/Qui = 78
Self Str = 51
Self DA = 7.3
Self AF = 68 (maybe less)

Pots/Charged 1min bufftime*
Charged Str/Con = 56
Charged Haste = 17
Pot Dex = 20
Pot Con = 20

Pierc WS = 1296
Attack Speed = 48.5% hasted
HP = 1482

Evade = 26.6% (-40% lower vs SB)

VS

Norseman Shadowblade
_________
50+11 Axe
36+11 LA
34+11 Stealth
39+11 Poisons

Buffs*

Pots/Charged 1min bufftime*
Charged Str/Con = 56
Charged Dex/Qui = 63
Pot Str = 20
Pot Con = 20

Axe WS = 1205
Attack Speed = 30% hasted (-21% lower vs Ranger)
HP = 1647

Evade = 44%

__________________________________
Now yes the ranger is on top with WS and HP and haste. But your forgetting one thing, POISONS. 118 str/con debuff , plus a -20 haste debuff poison from alchemy, there is a 40 value one, but it requires rare items to make it, so we will go with just 20% debuff.

Pierc WS = 1126 (-113 str) (-7% lower vs SB)
Attack SPeed = 38% hasted (-20%) <- same value without haste
HP = 1136 (-96 con) (-31% lower vs SB)

Hey look at that, now the ranger is weaker then the SB by a little WS and alot of HP, and he has a faster attack speed still, but only because of his high qui starting stats. But the SB still has better evade, dot poisons.

Now, lets see the same setups, exept without charged/pot buffs.

Luri ranger
_________
50+11 pierc
26+11 CD
34+11 Stealth
40 PF (Not Possible to get Higher without lower pierc)

Buffs*
Self Dex/Qui = 78
Self Str = 51
Self DA = 7.3
Self AF = 68 (maybe less)

Pierc WS = 1180 (1053 WS after -85 str debuff)
Attack Speed = 38% hasted (26% hasted after -20 haste debuff poison)
HP = 1208 (996 hp after -59 con debuff) (-27% lower vs SB)

Evade = 26.1% (-36% lower vs SB)

vs

Norseman Shadowblade
_________
50+11 Axe
36+11 LA
34+11 Stealth
39+11 Poisons

Buffs*
SRY no buffs

Axe WS = 973 (-8% lower vs Ranger)
Attack Speed = 18% hasted (-31% lower vs Ranger)
HP = 1362

Evade = 41%

So as you can see, the diffrence between access to charged/pot buffs and not in this fight, is that the SB is stronger with the buffs by more, compared to the unbuffed fight, where the ranger comes out on top by a little. And if the ranger was blade spec, it would of been even worse for him. There is no reason in this situation for the SB not to be able to beat this Ranger, and with old RA system, no Physical Defense, and with no camo up a SB can easyly get a PA, if he specs it of course.

Fights vs self buffing classes will have diff stats, but you need to look at the big picture of ablities and what they get access too. Slam for example is very useful, as parry and blocking is also helpful. Triple wield for BM and flurry, and so on.