Same applys to a class like the warden, who gets the same self base buffs as the bard, and is on the lower dmg table, but can spec for a haste spell. Which the highest is 38% at lvl 47, but since anyone can get 17% haste, that lowers the effectiveness of his 38% haste to 55% effective to before, and he specced for that. Mythic intended these self buffs to be effective for that class to make up for other down falls of there class. Then they added charge, buffbot city and so on. We all know mythics intent has changed over the years, and that is why we are on a free server where it aims to be classic, as in game play that mythic origenaly intended.

You ever can decide what you want buffs or better damage. No one say you that you must spec selfbuffs. I know hunters who play 50 bow 44 spear 35 stalth and rest bea, while others play 50 bea 44 spear 35 bow rest stealth. You can´t say that pots are imbaslance, all depend your gameplay mode.

Yes you can drop your self buff lines, and replace it with buff pots/charges and get equal dmg, not better but equal, add it up. Only problem is, by removing your buffline, you also lose AF, pet, speed. All those things are not extras, they are part of the classes effectiveness. By saying you can use charges and pots, instead of your bufflines, it would be saying to fight a non buffing class, who is not using charges or pots, and fight them on your self buffing class, but your not allowed to use your buffline, because it makes you too strong. I can easly tell you who would win.

Bufflines are not ( Extra ), they are part of the whole class put together. It would be like cutting your arm off and expecting you to preform the same, compared to someone who is whole. But its currently setup that only 33% of your arm is cut off or weaker or what ever. Just test it out yourself, find a self buffing class, like a hunter ranger or what ever, and duel , you can not use any charged buffs or pots, and he can only use buffline buffs, and see if he totaly rapes you or if its a fair fight still. Also keep in mind RR and experence too.

Of how i see it, by giving a buff to a non self buffing class, reduces the effectiveness of that buff type on classes that can spec for it. Example, allowing str/con charge buff to none buffing classes, affects the effectiveness of classes like a champion who is designed around them getting a str/con buff though there buffline. So vs a non self buff class, that has a str/con charge, lowers the champions buff.

Champion spec for 50 valor get 77 str/con, which is given to him , so he can have 77 more then non buffing classes who are on a higher dmg table/hp. So if a enemy has 56 str/con charge, that makes there 77 str/con, more like a 21 str/con self buff. If you get what i mean.

Same goes for like the bard or wardens base line buffs they get. At 50 they get 62 str, 55 con, and 60 dex, greater then an enemy who wasnt designed around having to be buffed, but give them base buff pots, it will lower each one by 20.

So removel of these luxary buffs for classes that where not designed around a buffline, would make a more classic feel to the game, but of corse you should do some testing, like a champion vs a blademaster, warden vs a hero , ranger vs hero and so on, with no buffs exept what they are ment to have. If the game play isnt fair, and what i mean by fair is equal. Just because someone is a light tank or a tank, doesnt allwes mean that class has to be easyer to play.

And if you find removal a step to a more hardcore buff free choice, then youl have to see what you can do , to compensate people for there work on getting things like the necklace of the body. Maybe replace with a diff charge that maybe as useful.

Eclipsed wrote:Champion spec for 50 valor get 77 str/con, which is given to him , so he can have 77 more then non buffing classes who are on a higher dmg table/hp. So if a enemy has 56 str/con charge, that makes there 77 str/con, more like a 21 str/con self buff. If you get what i mean.

No - Self-only-Buffs always give min(delve*1,25 , speccap)
So Champion with 50 Valor got +75 str/con = 75*1,25 = 93,75 = 93 (same as speccap)

And you got no bonus from pots other than +buff effectivity which doesn't exist on Uthgard.

There is a difference of 37 and the self buff is 99% up.

Razzer wrote:

Eclipsed wrote:Champion spec for 50 valor get 77 str/con, which is given to him , so he can have 77 more then non buffing classes who are on a higher dmg table/hp. So if a enemy has 56 str/con charge, that makes there 77 str/con, more like a 21 str/con self buff. If you get what i mean.

No - Self-only-Buffs always give min(delve*1,25 , speccap)
So Champion with 50 Valor got +75 str/con = 75*1,25 = 93,75 = 93 (same as speccap)

And you got no bonus from pots other than +buff effectivity which doesn't exist on Uthgard.

There is a difference of 37 and the self buff is 99% up.

I alrdy know the base value , that i was getting from a builder that claimed the highest delve one for the champ is 62 + 25% = 77

But even with the value higher, if your enemy has buffs and isnt a self buffing class, means your spell is still going to be less effective vs them.

Also since alchemy showed up from 1.54 and later. We know that self buffing classes , still had there buffs before that point too. The community wanted alchemy, prob a new wanting buffs and what ever else and mythic knews that is a great way to make money, a char sitting and crafting $$$, even if it screws with game play. What all charged items , existed back then ? DF was added during 1.49, what all charges existed back then too, before DF ? Mythic has a bad habit of adding feature, items and so on, to intrest players, to buy what ever or blow time on getting something. That is why uthgard is class, and not a buffbot server.

Buffpots are not buffbot. If you can´t understand the difference is your problem but stop run in circles about this topic. You said that pots are imbalance, bug, later went back to imbalance. Now you say that is buffbot. What will be next? Imbalance again? Bug?

Please stop run in circles.

vangonaj wrote:Buffpots are not buffbot. If you can´t understand the difference is your problem but stop run in circles about this topic. You said that pots are imbalance, bug, later went back to imbalance. Now you say that is buffbot. What will be next? Imbalance again? Bug?

Please stop run in circles.

Your mis understanding what ive said in the past. Ive made alot of examples and stuff and did alot of that explaining, that you dont understand. Ive made my point about this topic, and im sure the staff understands it too , wether they agree or not, i got my message across. Many other gave there 2 cents with little explanations and not understanding what i ment and player bashing and so on. No point for me to argue my point to some people that are not willing to listen, just want it the way they want and nothing will change there mind.

So im done with this thread, go ahead and make up some outrageous claims and so on to make my thread sound like something its not, as many have done alrdy. Im sure the staff will take a little bit more time and actualy read and try and understand what i mean. I think nix got what i ment, i hope other staff will too. But to give one last clear message of what im trying to say , here i go.

If and when the server goes to old RA system and older patch, i believe there should be some changes to improve self buffing classes, which include all self buffing classes, then just a ranger. Any class that has self buffs, are gimped by design to be on a lower dmg table, ablities, and so on compared to non self buffing classes. Reason is because they can increase there stats with self buffs , unlike some others. But by giving everyone access to buffs, by pots or charges, this cuts down the amout of extra stat buffs that these self buffing classes can have, compared to non self buffing enemys. Example

warden gains 62 str, 55 con, 60 dex, more then any non self buffing class, but because he is on a lower dmg table and get less hp then some others, and is classic without shield spec, he has to use his buffs to come into balance with his enemys. But if you give everyone, including the warden buffs by way of charges and pots, that drops the effectiveness of his self buffs, by as much as 33%. Now he can get like str/con , dex/qui now, but so can his enemys, so that isnt a bonus to improve his lower dmg table. He can get better base buffs, then 20 value pots, but his enemys will have 20 more base value buff, then they should have, which means instead of having 62, 55, and 60 more stats, youd have to lower each one by 20, if the enemy has those buffs, which many can. He can also spec to 50 for his 38% haste, but since enemys can gain access to a 17% haste, that lowers his gain from his buff by 17% value, he has over his enemy.

Now some could argue that there is charges and pot buffs on live, so im wrong. But alchmy was added during 1.54, so there was no pots before that, and DF was added during 1.49, so im not sure how many charges where out there, and when they all got added, but origenaly mythic gave some classes buffs and other didnt get buffs. Those who got buffs, had suffered at the hands of a lower dmg table, ablites and so on like i said. So i think by removing the charges, removing the pots and restoring all these buff classes to there origenal buff values and how these buffs worked, but only on old RA system, because back then shield slam was more effective, CC , RA access for haste for melee, spells, bow and so on. Now many wouldnt like this kinda change , because it makes things more hardcore, same as going to OF zone and going to Old Ra's. But there will be issues with those who have spent time gaining items with these charges, like the necklace of the body. But i dont think you should let that stop the server from going in the direction it was aiming for. Mythic fell for that easy, give the masses what they want and we make money.

If you need to compensate players for there time and effort for these items, you can replace these buff charges with something else that would be still worth it, or maybe lower the value of charges to 30 and remove pots, but that still lowers the effectivenss of spec bufflines a little, but it maybe a work around to give access to little buffs, and makes charges worth wroking hard to get. Id rather see them removed too, but i need to give an alternitive too.

So its up to the staff, to decide if my topic about these self buffing classes is currect or not and what they want to do. WHAT THEY WANT TO DO. I only gave suggestions, i dont expect they have to do what i said exactly. If someone disagrees, they should say why and actualy give some kinda facts to there claim to support it, then just player bash or crazy claims and so on.

shame it was only me (and maybe the staff) who understood what eclipsed was trying to say

(and ps. I don't play a selfbuff class)

No, I agree with Eclipsed -> I've stated this sentiment elsewhere

However his method about doing this seems to be ineffective

nixian wrote:shame it was only me (and maybe the staff) who understood what eclipsed was trying to say

(and ps. I don't play a selfbuff class)

I do see his point, I just do not think that it is valid. Seeing things like Eclipsed would e.g. mean that you had to remove the resistances you can get by spellcrafting because they weaken the damage dealers' capabilities to deal damage. Therefore only resistance buffs you can get from Druids/Wardens/Clerics/Friars/Healers/Shamans should be allowed.

Buff-Potions and Charges as they are now available are balanced:

- You must repeatedly invest time and ingame-ressources to get buff charges

- Your delve-multiplier is only 1 compared to up to 1.25 that buffs from buff classes have.

- The buff-charge-values are not that heavy tbh.

- Really everybody can do it which includes the classes with self-buffs.

Hence I do not see a reason to remove or nerf buff charges and / or buff potions.

Your logic is absolutely 100% broken.

I do see his point, I just do not think that it is valid. Seeing things like Eclipsed would e.g. mean that you had to remove the resistances you can get by spellcrafting because they weaken the damage dealers' capabilities to deal damage. Therefore only resistance buffs you can get from Druids/Wardens/Clerics/Friars/Healers/Shamans should be allowed.

Druids/Wardens etc. 's buffs are still 100% useful regardless of whatever the hell you can SC onto your items. Why? Because, genius, everyone can benefit from them - they stack with the spellcrafter items, and not only that, every single type of character in the game can get their 26% resists. They're not at ANY type of disadvantage because instead of 26% they have 34% or more.

Resist buffs aren't hampered in any form by spellcrafter buffs, because they STACK. If self-buffing classes could also add potion buffs that STACKED with their self buffs, then fine, it's a universal thing, but it doesn't.

Buff-Potions and Charges as they are now available are balanced:

Let's see

- You must repeatedly invest time and ingame-ressources to get buff charges

That never balances anything. Take ToA for example, and then eat this argument.

- Your delve-multiplier is only 1 compared to up to 1.25 that buffs from buff classes have.

The point isn't that it's just as good, it's that you're getting it AT ALL. Putting you at an advantage over the classes that get self buffs. Who cares if it's only 3/4ths as effective? The point is that you're getting these buffs, bringing you above their level. Self buffing classes are at basic level power with their full buffs, but with any buffs, a non self buff class yet still above basic level power. Thus, they have the advantage.

- The buff-charge-values are not that heavy tbh.

This is the same as your previous point. The fact that the delve isn't as high isn't relevant to Eclipse's argument, nor is it to this conversation. If the delves were negligible, then sure, whatever, but they're not negligible. +63 str/con is significant no matter which way you try to spin it.

- Really everybody can do it which includes the classes with self-buffs.

A self buff class won't benefit from this, as they need full quality buffs to perform at their basic level, and in many cases, abandoning the buff-spec in favor of using buff-pots all the time isn't even viable.



The only true valid complaints are:

-Those of who spent time getting charges
-Casters being gimp

My solution to these problems?

The first one, I don't know. Make the charges usable in PvE? Honestly, people QQing about all their plats and time spent instead of being worried about balance is kinda annoying. I really don't know what to do about this.

and casters being gimp. I have no idea if this is true or not. Maybe we should have some field tests, unbuffed casters versus unbuffed tanks, and see how that goes. I get the feeling that the argument is balanced, but that honestly really points towards tanks being overpowered...

The other argument that I looked at but shrugged at was:

-People who spent time to level up an alch

Well, alch still won't be useless, as they still get useful procs/charges, mana/endu/health pots, and etc.

I guess it's kinda valid but honestly, it's not even that hard to get a crafter up to the level where they can craft pots.

Anyways yeah bro your logic isn't very sound

Well there is a point to removing buffcharges and chargeitems....
But only if you automatically remove alchemy and spellcrafting, since these both things came with toa.
Also downgrade the "server wanna be" version from 1.80 to 1.40 or something like that pre SI. Remove SI-classes and all the changes done after that and make a really classic server without templates, capresists etc...

This would be the only fitting solution to removing buffcharges, and i doubt there are more people around who would want this, instead of the current uth patchstand.

Oh I agree that buffpots/charges are well embedded into the game, but honestly that had nothing to do with the logic behind these arguments.

You also have to remember we're on a custom ruleset: No Buffbots. So consideration of these charges/pots, honestly, should be looked at differently, right?

Satz wrote:But only if you automatically remove alchemy and spellcrafting, since these both things came with toa.

Spellcrafting and Alchemy didn't come with ToA.