Jarysa wrote:I said low block rate is ONE of the reasons tank spam is dominant on Uthgard.

Let's be specific: DW tank spam is dominant on Uthgard. Any other class on the assist train is secondary to the DW tank.

Also the 9% in your example are very misleading. That is a ~16% damage increase for DW tanks, which is more than free MoP5.

Hold it, who's being misleading here? That is not how damage is dealt in this game. Block does not reduce damage per hit, it negates it. 9% more of the DW tank's attacks will pass through Guard, but these extra attacks will be spread between the Guard tank's blocks. If your healers can't account for 1 extra attack out of 10 passing through guard then the group has failed in a fundamental way. Guard is not the problem here.

But not all tanks are DWers. For non DWers it is a 180% damage increase. That's like 3 tanks hitting a guarded target instead of one.

Again, you're the one being misleading by using "180%" as if 180% of null is a huge number. Besides Savages (of which there are only 8 active in RvR) how many non-DW tanks normally join the assist train? Often the only other tank in the group is the defense tank, and often he will be in the back with the support, or he will peel to slam enemy support and casters.

What if we give our Kobold tank higher RR and more MoB? Mob 4 would increase his block rate to 78%. The skill bonus from higher RR will take his block-rate over 80%. We're not far from your 90% live-like block.

My point is:

Guard and block are of secondary importance in group RvR. You could have a 100% block-rate and there would still be Doublefrost spam because that Berserker cuts your block-rate in half. In fact a higher block-rate would increase the number of DW tanks in RvR. Why take a non-DW tank if 90% of his attacks will be blocked? Guard does nothing to reduce DW tank spam while simultaneously shutting down many non-DW tank classes.

You know, the one's that actually require some skill to play.

The flip-side of this dilemma is that in solo and small man play, block is very imbalanced. Its much harder to bypass a guard tank in a 2v2 or a 3v3. 1v1 vs. a shield class is a painfully slow, boring fight for anyone. No skill required: the RNG decides the fight.

That is why I submitted my original proposal, because block on Uthgard is a lose-lose situation. It contributes very little to group RvR besides killing the DPS of non-DW tanks; non-DW tanks which need to contribute more to group RvR, not less. In solo and small man play block is completely lop-sided in favor of shield spec classes.

Seyha wrote:The flip-side of this dilemma is that in solo and small man play, block is very imbalanced. Its much harder to bypass a guard tank in a 2v2 or a 3v3. 1v1 vs. a shield class is a painfully slow, boring fight for anyone. No skill required: the RNG decides the fight.

That is why I submitted my original proposal, because block on Uthgard is a lose-lose situation. It contributes very little to group RvR besides killing the DPS of non-DW tanks; non-DW tanks which need to contribute more to group RvR, not less. In solo and small man play block is completely lop-sided in favor of shield spec classes.

Daoc is designed around 8vsx not around 1vsx and hence all you said is pointless

Celteen wrote:Daoc is designed around 8vsx not around 1vsx and hence all you said is pointless

Indeed, which is why you must be in an FG to enter an RvR zone.

uthgard just need working defense penetration. bring the defense equations to as close as live like as possible with working defense penetration and all will be fine.

Seyha wrote:
~90% Live block-rate = 45% against DW classes
~72% Uthgard block-rate = 36% against DW classes

thats not correct mythic got rid of that concept somewhere in 1.9 they now reimplement a 25% penetration advantage for dualwielding classes with 1.109...

Uthgard models the classic defense penalty of 1/2 for dual wield against block and evade.

Celteen wrote:

Seyha wrote:The flip-side of this dilemma is that in solo and small man play, block is very imbalanced. Its much harder to bypass a guard tank in a 2v2 or a 3v3. 1v1 vs. a shield class is a painfully slow, boring fight for anyone. No skill required: the RNG decides the fight.

That is why I submitted my original proposal, because block on Uthgard is a lose-lose situation. It contributes very little to group RvR besides killing the DPS of non-DW tanks; non-DW tanks which need to contribute more to group RvR, not less. In solo and small man play block is completely lop-sided in favor of shield spec classes.

Daoc is designed around 8vsx not around 1vsx and hence all you said is pointless

So nightshades, infiltrators, shadowblades, hunters, rangers, scouts and minstrels arent designed to 1vs1?

Oswaldo wrote:

Celteen wrote:

Seyha wrote:The flip-side of this dilemma is that in solo and small man play, block is very imbalanced. Its much harder to bypass a guard tank in a 2v2 or a 3v3. 1v1 vs. a shield class is a painfully slow, boring fight for anyone. No skill required: the RNG decides the fight.

That is why I submitted my original proposal, because block on Uthgard is a lose-lose situation. It contributes very little to group RvR besides killing the DPS of non-DW tanks; non-DW tanks which need to contribute more to group RvR, not less. In solo and small man play block is completely lop-sided in favor of shield spec classes.

Daoc is designed around 8vsx not around 1vsx and hence all you said is pointless

So nightshades, infiltrators, shadowblades, hunters, rangers, scouts and minstrels arent designed to 1vs1?

Are designed for zerg XDDD

^^ well lol thats just how european players usually play any class, wasnt intended by mythic ;p

Curious if the staff have plans for a short term fix for any of the defense skills (not just block) until a live-like system is implemented?

I want to stress that Uthgard's current system is not live-like, so any argument about "custom" changes is redundant. I still believe my 1/4th system offers a good compromise.

edit: Tonight I will do a test on Pendragon to see if defense penetration has a similar effect on block rate as it does for evade.

I don`t understand the problem ...

Y, block/guard was heavy on life when SI and capped templates ticked in. Just remeber, when a single Paladin (Saracen, Capped Dex, 50 Shield, RR4, MoB III, AugDex II) blocked a full Avalon City Pull (30 - 40 oj/red Mobs) vs. a Ice Mage. Or playing BlockBot for the same Icer against Midgard Assist Train. First stun/mezz the Bot, then kill Caster ...

And yes, 1 vs. 1 against a blockpally (think hero/warrior will work the same) WAS slow - even vs. DW Chars like Zerker/Savage/BM. I remember some nice fights with a pally mate (both block skilled) when guarding each other against some *more* enemies - thats just the way a block tank works. Best way to deal with ? Try to get PosiStyles off, or just stun/mezz
U have to remember, to reach this high block rates, u have to sacrifice pretty much of your offensive potential - and we ARE not on live with Overcaps etc.

But i have to admit, that a non-functional WS system makes it hard to work against New RA Block ****** - MoB, Aug Dex, Purge, Det ...

Seyha wrote:edit: Tonight I will do a test on Pendragon to see if defense penetration has a similar effect on block rate as it does for evade.

not sure if you will see any differences, up to 1.109 the defense penetration is not implemented (was disabled somewehere in 1.9x) and last week pendra was still 1.108...

Tankqull wrote:

Seyha wrote:edit: Tonight I will do a test on Pendragon to see if defense penetration has a similar effect on block rate as it does for evade.

not sure if you will see any differences, up to 1.109 the defense penetration is not implemented (was disabled somewehere in 1.9x) and last week pendra was still 1.108...

Source?

Yezaim wrote:even vs. DW Chars like Zerker/Savage/BM.

The savage is not a DW character. H2H does not lower block-rate.

Best way to deal with ? Try to get PosiStyles off

This is harder to do on Uthgard because the range for 360 defense is extended to 62 units when moving. If I try to run through and land a positional I often have my attack blocked/evaded/parried from behind as if my target were facing me.

U have to remember, to reach this high block rates, u have to sacrifice pretty much of your offensive potential

False. What class sacrifices real offensive potential for high block-rate? The Paladin, maybe, and what else? Even Mercs/BMs can spec 42 shield with no significant penalty to damage.

Tankqull wrote:not sure if you will see any differences, up to 1.109 the defense penetration is not implemented (was disabled somewehere in 1.9x) and last week pendra was still 1.108...

Yeah, post the patch notes, please.