Jarysa wrote:It's great game design, because it allows defensive tanks to actually do something in RvR unlike in every other game. It encourages working as a team on a level way beyond wow's assist -> press damage macro. Class imbalance is one of the things making DAoC great. If that means a healer can't solo at all or a hero wtfpwnz a hunter ... who cares?

You mean do something in RvR besides slaming, snaring, assisting, peeling + special class abilities + RAs? A 60% capped block rate would still allow a shield spec class (not just tanks) to mitigate a huge amount of damage without completely imbalancing the game. Statistically a 50-60% chance to do anything will result in the ridiculous 6-7 block/evade streaks that render player skill, tactics, and patience completely irrelevant. That's great game design?

Obviously Mythic would disagree with you since they've implemented hard caps and other changes to try to curb that nonsense.

You don't need to specialize in defense to do that. 42 shield will do. Going 50 shield and high mob should have benefits.

Yeah, mythic disagrees ... that's why they implemented BG ... (O_o)

The block caps were introduced because of soloers QQ (esp. about valks) long after block lost its importance for group RvR.

My main toon was hero on live and i can say that about 90% blockrate seems right with old frontiers without a block cap. (with 50 shields moblock5 and high realmrank...). 3 savages and 1 warrior couldnt get any hits through my guard and without a good guard tank it was very hard to beat those instant kill savages, at times when they had a bugged quad hit chance

Jarysa wrote:You don't need to specialize in defense to do that. 42 shield will do. Going 50 shield and high mob should have benefits.

That's why its bad design. 42 shield basically costs nothing since every class that can spec shield can get it without having to sacrifice any real utility or damage (not enough to off-set the benefits of shield spec). For that you get excellent defense and a 9s stun. 50 shield spec + MoB takes it to an extreme, and no you should not be able to trivialize a player's attacks because you put some extra points into a passive ability.

The block caps were introduced because of soloers QQ (esp. about valks) long after block lost its importance for group RvR.

Says you. You'd think Mythic would work to reassert the importance of block since stopping 90% of all incoming attacks with a passive ability is apparently vital to a defense tank's playability.

The block rate caps were introduced like 5 years after bodyguard. Block at that moment had no importance what so ever in group RvR, so obviously they could nerf block without any impacts on group RvR. I'm not an idiot. I get its imbalancing effects on solo RvR, but the high block rate is needed for guard in group RvR. The way lower block rate on Uthgard is one of the main reasons for assist -> doublefrost being the most dominant playstyle here, as it's natural counter does not work correctly.

Ronian wrote:My main toon was hero on live and i can say that about 90% blockrate seems right with old frontiers without a block cap. (with 50 shields moblock5 and high realmrank...). 3 savages and 1 warrior couldnt get any hits through my guard and without a good guard tank it was very hard to beat those instant kill savages, at times when they had a bugged quad hit chance

Jip this block rates + 6 sec fend was kinda rape on live back in the days.
But hey we wanna port back to 2003 so basically we want this status, I've no problems with it
It was close to imposible to kill a guarded bomb in melee if the guarder had purge up to get out of slam and mop4+.

and on uthgard you can do it with 42 +XX shield and buffs.

Celteen wrote:

Ronian wrote:My main toon was hero on live and i can say that about 90% blockrate seems right with old frontiers without a block cap. (with 50 shields moblock5 and high realmrank...). 3 savages and 1 warrior couldnt get any hits through my guard and without a good guard tank it was very hard to beat those instant kill savages, at times when they had a bugged quad hit chance

Jip this block rates + 6 sec fend was kinda rape on live back in the days.
But hey we wanna port back to 2003 so basically we want this status, I've no problems with it
It was close to imposible to kill a guarded bomb in melee if the guarder had purge up to get out of slam and mop4+.

Hum, no it was not possible so get front slam with moblock5 and 68+ shields

@Force
I thought we have a blockcap on Uthgard?

He is talking out of his ass anyway. Just ignore him.

Fully buffed kobold warrior with 65 shield had 62% block rate when Atasi and i tested it back then.

Jarysa you need to get laid or something.


42+11 shield on uthgard versus 2H warrior with 400+ str will show ridiculously high block rate compared to live under the same conditions.

Jarysa wrote:He is talking out of his ass anyway. Just ignore him.

Fully buffed kobold warrior with 65 shield had 62% block rate when Atasi and i tested it back then.

How much MoB?

mob2 i think

But it doesn't matter as mob had no effect at all on Uthgard back then. That has been stealth fixed afaik.

So if MoB is now working correctly...

Jarysa wrote: The way lower block rate on Uthgard is one of the main reasons for assist -> doublefrost being the most dominant playstyle here, as it's natural counter does not work correctly.

You claim that DW tank assist-trains are the dominant play-style here because the block rate is not high enough. On live it was ~90%. If we give your Kobold tester MoB 3 then its block rate would be ~72%.

~90% Live block-rate = 45% against DW classes
~72% Uthgard block-rate = 36% against DW classes

Its hard to believe that a difference of 9% block-rate is the reason guard is ineffective against DW tank assist-trains on Uthgard.

Seyha wrote:You claim that DW tank assist-trains are the dominant play-style here because the block rate is not high enough.

No, I do not claim that. I said low block rate is ONE of the reasons tank spam is dominant on Uthgard. MoB and guard being completely fubared was another, but both got stealth fixed afaik. New RAs without their counters is another obvious reason.

Also the 9% in your example are very misleading. That is a ~16% damage increase for DW tanks, which is more than free MoP5.
But not all tanks are DWers. For non DWers it is a 180% damage increase. That's like 3 tanks hitting a guarded target instead of one.

Seyha wrote:.

~90% Live block-rate = 45% against DW classes
~72% Uthgard block-rate = 36% against DW classes

i think a more accurate way (that could actually be tested) to quantify the difference between live and uthgard would be

uthgard; __ shield spec with ___ dex needed to reach 60% block rate versus 400 str warrior with 70 hammer

live; __ shield spec with ___ dex needed to reach 60% block rate versus 400 str warrior with 70 hammer


since that can actually be tested and verified. If uthgard defense rates are lower, youll see much lower shield spec/dex required to reach 60% against a 400 str warri.

Sounds more likely to me that since uthgard lacks defense penetration, live will hit it first.