buffpots and charges in a non-buffbot classic setting
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geez you kids are just so use to buffs, its mind blowing to think of a world without. Kinda like it would be if we had buffbots and it was being removed now or if we had high value charges and they got nerfed..... or wait yes they did and all we heard is this exact same crying. I worked hard to get it and now its nerfed, but yet game play is about the same for those non self buffing classes.
Alchemy = health pots, end pots, power pots, charges, procs, and the list keeps going, buffs is just a small part of that. And i have a alchmist and losing the buffs out of it wouldnt matter, because if my enemy does have them, why would i. And yes i understand that casters will be hit hard, but when and we will be going to old ra's im sure, the CC for casters will be much more effective and casters can get Aug dex + % cast speed RAs. If you want to rapid fire spells, play a i50 buffed server. Plus your enemy melee classes will not have dex/qui charges/pots and haste so they will be swinging alot slower too, alot with less HP, which makes your spells more effective killing an enemy. But all this is just a discussion. As i said the staff will be the one to make the choice, and have to consider how does charges and pot buffs affect the effectiveness of self buffing classes compared to non self buffing classes with charges/pot buffs. Heck in the case of the rangers dex/qui self buff, the lvl 29 DQ cost 434 spec pts for 49 D/Q + 25% = only 61 D/Q. So non buffers can get that for just the cost of 10g per charge. But of corse you get a dmg add, str, and so on too, but because i get self buffs im on a lower dmg table and hp table. But it really doesnt matter about balance, its about what the masses want and they want to keep what they got, and uthgard is prob stuck because of that. Many server fallow that rule, the masses run the server. I dont expect most people would be able to handle a hardcore classic game play, but that is ok , i can handle how the server is, this change had nothing to do with that, i was just trying to get a point across, that self buffs is part of that classes effectivness and not a bonus over other classes, but many dont believe that. Easy way to prove that is take a ranger without buffs vs a BM or even a nightshade with all his poisons. Or a warden without buffs and so on. |
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You spec 434 pts not only for +49 D/Q, but also for +26STR, 5.4 dps add damage, +40 AF and +165% SPEED 35 sec.
Poulivore : Weak Singer
Maelig : Endangered species |
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Eclipsed I agree that not everyone should have access to full buffs
however those of us who actually worked hard for our charge items and our templates would feel very upset getting this smack that is why I suggested: remove alch buffs keep charges that way you get a few things 1. Not everyone is running around full buffed 2. buffs aren't used as something you need to have up all the time, but that can be used on the spot to get a boost over a certain enemy (more tactical use of charges) 3. it would still be viable to reform a template to get x charge over y stat/resist which results in more fun templates and choices you have to make instead of everyone being in 100% capped suits 4. easyer for casual players to compete (not having to search for an alch, lvl up alch, or the like + they would only face charges from hardcore optimizers since only those who really care about those bonuses would do the extra work to get them) 5. Casters could still get pom4 / d/q / acu from their charges also a little ps. only charge that is hard to get is s/c and pom, rest can be crafted with alchemists which means only those who want the s/c and pom charge have to put in a lot of work (now that I think of it, can d/q be crafted? - anyways there is a lot of d/q charge items out there - atleast on hib, not sure on alb/mid) |
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Well,
- as you must invest time and ingame-ressources to get buff charges, - as you have to constantly rebuff yourself (and we all know that buff charges tend to run off in the silliest situations), - as your delve-multiplier is only 1 compared to up to 1.25 that buffs from buff classes get, - as the buff-charge-values are not that heavy and - as really everybody can do it just like everything else in the game I do not see any reason to remove buff charges and buff potions. |
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no, my point was that if eclipse don't want every single solo person out there to run out fully buffed, then make it so that if you wanna have buffs.. you have to work for it I have done that and many others have - having to work for something doesn't have to be a bad thing and this isn't anything about making myself more powerful this is about making it more casual and enjoyable to rvr I myself hardly ever use buffs when I am out.. I use d/q + dex if i see an enemy incomming that I know is hard and I need some buffs to get the kill reason why? Because its too much hassle and work and its too expencive to run around being buffed when you might not find a single inc in 10 minutes I use charges as a tactical element towards some enemies I don't use them just because I can I agree with eclipsed in the fact that alch potions do bring an imbalance and makes it too easy for people to get fully buffed.. imo it should be hard work getting buffed - so the buffs is a reward for your work in your realm (legion/taj2 raids) and not because you spend half a day at the alch table pressing #2 |
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That is one way to go, but that still leaves non buffing classes with high spec buffs, compared to those who are specing for it. Remember they spec for there buffs because there class is designed to need them, unlike others. I can see why a assasin would want buffs since they are on the same hp/dmg table as like a ranger, but that 118 str/con debuff really brings down any self buffed class down or below there lvl, along with a dot. The only ones i can agree with is casters, for the cast speed a little though, since Old RAs will help them out a little bit more with CC and cast speed. Both the charged items with Dex/Qui and Str/Con have values that are about 29+ spec buff lines , and im considering the 25% bonus , so if they had a buffline with 25% bonus, that would be a 29+ spec, and i think 32 spec compared to the champs str/con buff. So any self buffing class is required to have 29-32 spec in there buffline, to ... not be equal, because with buffs and enemy with no buffs is equal. So if your non self buff enemy has buffs, you have to match the buffs + extra to get up there to be equal, which mean you have to sacrifice alot to get there. I believe mythic intended self buff classes to be equal or mosty equal to non buff classes, when they spec there bufflines. One thing i could suggest though is removing the 25% buff bonus, if charges and pots buffs are removed. But we still have a problem with people that spent time to gain that str/con buff necklace. Which its kinda unfair for some classes and realms to gain that necklace, since one it requires DF, and currently i dont see hib getting DF much now with OF, and the class you play will determin your chance getting into a raid to DF. As my ranger, a spot to get in isnt easy and will be filled by any class normaly. And last the problem with just charges is that charges is only spec buffs, so self buff classes that spec for a spec line buff, like the champion will only benifit from the d/q charge, while other self buff classes like wardens, and bards gain free base buffs get spec s/c , d/q . And again classes there where not intended to self buff, will still have access to more dmg, more health, more defenses, and more attack speed. But again it falls on the issue of people that worked hard for these items, mainly just this stupid str/con necklace. Maybe remove pots and change charges to 30 value. Its not much but since non buffing classes can not buff at all, this is a more valueable item then, but you can compete without it too, so not everyone will have to bust your butt for it, its a luxury item, not a requirement. Same goes with charge AF, im not sure if it was origenaly nerfed like the d/q s/c was, but there is classes that spec for AF buff too. But no one will like these changes, even if they make sense, BUT only makes sense if uthgard goes to Old RA's with an older patch version, if that doesnt change, that i do see issues with casters getting CC purged to often, no way to access cast speed, melee, speed, bow speed and so on by RAs. I think the no buff policy would only work with old ra system, it would be unbalanced for caster with new ra system. |
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casual? you will make the game more casual by removing temporary weak buffs that are available to EVERYONE willing to spend two-three hours and a few hundred gold to bring alchemy to around 600 and leave the charges that are two times more powerful and are possessed only by an elite or lucky few? so you basicaly force every player to attend legion raid hundreds of times in order to be able to compete against forementioned players. how is this more "casual"?
now this one's great. what's tactical about buffing yourself? really now, I don't know this tactic. is it something you can share or is it a well kept secret only true skilled players know how to use? you buff yourself to be more powerful or at least at par with an enemy. there is no tactic in this. no brains used. or I guess frontiers are full of "master tacticians".
not fully. less-than-half buffed. delve your druid's base and spec buffs and compare them to their alchemy crafted counterparts. I think charges are a bigger problem after all...
when you attend a Legion raid, are you going because you want to help your realm? no, you're going with hopes of getting some phat lewt. there's nothing noble in attending a raid for fifty-seventh time. you do it because you want that damn necklace and everytime you end up emtpyhanded you curse your god, realm, realmmates and wish the necklace just didn't exist. <strong>FIX TEH PROFILE PAGE SO I CAN CHANGE MY SIG PLZ</strong>
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casual in the sense that you didn't have to worry about carrying X number of barrels with you all the time and casual in the sense that even though some few people would have some extra buffs making them more powerful it would be a minority making it less vital not having that charge
tactical in the sense that when I choose to use a d/q charge instead of a dmg add charge I choose to up my defence instead of my offence (ofc. as im a pierce user it does up my offence but not half as much as a dmg add charge or haste charge would)
to me values are of no importance here, for me I would use a charge even if it was of value 10 instead of 60 (ofc. value compared to cost is somewhat of an aspect you have to consider, but atm charges are quite expensive to use)
You may not, but I actually enjoyed running legion raids for my realm while I was trying to get my body neck, it improved my reputation(atleast i'd like to think so) and provided me with contact to people I would never have spoken with if I hadn't done it (Kia baby you are specially in my mind here  ) |
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I do agree charged buffs , do get costly, and since pots can be removed without to much trouble, but charges like on the necklace of the body will cause some issues, for those who worked hard for it. I have an idea.
Remove pot based buffs, base and spec, haste Lower charged based buffs to 30 value, but increase there duration to 20min to improve the cost of them. This way charged items will be a luxery, not a requirement and since less players will have high buffs or any, this makes a 30 value charge worth it, but not enough to go crazy to get it because its not needed to compete. And since its a lower value, 20min duration makes it a luxery to have on you, since str/con you have to put on you before a fight, because you dont gain the HP as soon as you put it on you. Id also suggest finding extra options for getting the str/con charged item, other then DF, since what ever realms own DF the most, has a better chance of getting this necklace. Maybe add a Str/Con charge item to each realms OF boss mob, as long as those mobs are hard enough. Would make these bosses raided more, giving enemys a spot to check out, to kill some raiders. |
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i can hardly call +63 to all stats "some extra buffs" when I face you without having any of those charges. unless I am 6 realm ranks higher than you and have 2-3 active RA's that you don't, no skill or tactic is going to help me win that fight. right now, alchemy at least lowers the gap.
use them both and be even more tactical. unless you're short on cash, I don't see a reason why you wouldn't run fully, or at least nearly fully buffed.
now that's not very tactical of you. anyway, this, again, is your choice alone. 90%+ of the players will use whatever gives them the best odds in combat. now I will not cry if potions and charges get removed from the game. whatever I lose with that, I'm sure I will easily adapt. but removing alchemy pots while keeping charges would be simply insane. it would make the strong even stronger and solo players would find themselves as a food to those possessing charges. it would be extremely unbalancing. either remove both potions AND charges, or simply remove charges and reimburse those in possession of such items either with plats or other items.
yeah, well, it's kinda funny the first few times you do it, but it gets dull pretty quick. after that it's just chase for the item(s) you need and leads to nothing but frustration. if I wanted to do mindless raids for just one item, I'd be playing ToA happily. Last edited by Amadeth on Nov 23, 2009 17:19, edited 2 times in total.
<strong>FIX TEH PROFILE PAGE SO I CAN CHANGE MY SIG PLZ</strong>
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Bring imbalance??? Why??? Imbalance is when you can craft dex and st pot and me only dex pot. All players in this server can craft alchemy, and have their buffs. If they don´t want spend time for craft and want play without buffs is their problem. This isn´t reason for remove buff pots. |
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imbalance as in selfbuff classes vs non selfbuff classes |
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Clases with selfbuffs can skill this points in other specs for have better damage. For example hunter can spec 32 to bc and have 39 spear and 45 bow, or dont spec bs and have 44 spear and 50 bow. And he can use charges and pots too. I don´t see imbalance there. |
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To many people think each class is programed the same way, when it comes to stats and ablities. The truth is, some classes are weaker then other classes , but are compensated with buffs.
Self buffs = weaker dmg table/hp from stats. A non self buffing class can compete with a self buffed class, because they are on a better dmg table, higher hp, and sometimes better AF/ABS. They also can have better skills, like in the case of an assasin with a big stat debuff and poison dot. To many of you are looking at self buff classes as Self buff stat = that much more powerful then you are, when the truth is, that buff makes them equal to you. So by giving everyone the option to gain buffs, your cutting down the effectiveness of these self buffs and what they do for that class. Examples. Ranger vs Merc ( no buff pots, no buff charges ) Celt Ranger ___________________ 39+11 pierc 20+11 cd (46% Dual hit) 35+11 bow 32+11 stealth 42 PF ( 78 D/Q , 51 Str, 7.3 DA, 80 AF ) Pierc WS = 1103 Bow WS = 1417 HP = 1278 Evade = 25% Half Ogre Merc ___________________ 50+11 Slash 29+11 DW (52% dual hit) 42+11 shield 29+11 Parry Slash WS = 1376 HP = 1623 Evade = 9% Parry = 34% Block = 40% In this fight the ranger has buffs and higher stats, compared to the unbuffed merc , but yet the merc still has more 1h ws and hp, and defenses. The ranger can stealth for the suprise attack and get 2 shots or more, till /face and most arrows are blocked. Then comes the shield slam, which if on old ra's, means chance to be purged is much less likely. The ranger does have better bow ws, but will not be able to use in melee, so melee , even buffed is still not going to be as great as the merc. The ranger does have extra dps with the dmg and a AF shield, but the merc has chain abs and af. Ranger can get physical defense to reduce dmg, but merc can get mastery of blocking and parry to increase defenses. As you can see, each gets something, but mostly on an equal lvl. Now buffed aka uthgard Ranger vs Merc, with 2 pots , 2 charged buffs. Celt Ranger ___________________ 39+11 pierc 20+11 cd (46% Dual hit) 35+11 bow 32+11 stealth 42 PF ( 78 D/Q , 51 Str, 7.3 DA, 80 AF ) Str/Con Charge = 56 Haste Charge = 17% Dex Pot = 20 Con Pot = 20 Pierc WS = 1212 Bow WS = 1485 HP = 1552 Evade = 25.6% Half Ogre Merc ___________________ 50+11 Slash 29+11 DW (52% dual hit) 42+11 shield 29+11 Parry Str/Con Charge = 56 Dex/Qui Charge = 56 Str Pot = 20 Con Pot = 20 Slash WS = 1658 HP = 1957 Evade = 12% Parry = 40% Block = 46% Now for both classes to gain 2 charges , 2 pot buffs, it will take them 1 min to buff, then wait 1 min to do it again. But as you can see the merc gain alot more WS, a WS that is even better then a rangers bow, exept he doesnt get rupted in melee, and can use charge to get in melee range quick. The ranger did gain some HP and little WS, but not enough and now there is a bigger gap between the ranger and merc, because of the pot/charged buffs. Now a ranger could drop down PF and just use the charges and pots, and put more pts into pierc and or blades, but that will not equaly much at all, example. Celt Ranger ___________________ 50+11 pierc 20+11 cd (46% Dual hit) 40+11 bow 32+11 stealth 20 PF ( 32 Str, 4.2 DA, 35 AF ) Str/Con Charge = 56 Dex/Qui Charge = 63 Dex Pot = 20 Con Pot = 20 Pierc WS = 1247 Bow WS = 1476 HP = 1552 Evade = 25% Result = Little extra WS at the cost of a lower dmg add, AF , speed burst, but everything about the same with spec buffs. Unlike the merc who gained alot more, that is where the problem is vs self buffs classes to classes that do not have self buffs or what id like to call, classes that mythic didnt intend to need buffs. I think all charged/pot buffs should be removed, but if they cant be , because of necklace of the body, then it should be nerfed again to 30 value along with all charged buffs and remove buff pots. |
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Now to show what it would be like a self buffed class vs a non self buffed class with a low dmg table/hp , lets look at the ranger vs infi.
Celt Ranger ___________________ 39+11 pierc 20+11 cd (46% Dual hit) 35+11 bow 32+11 stealth 42 PF ( 78 D/Q , 51 Str, 7.3 DA, 80 AF ) Pierc WS = 1103 Bow WS = 1417 HP = 1278 Evade = 25% Saracen Infi ___________________ 50+11 thrust 29+11 DW ( 52% dual hit) 34+11 CS 37+11 Stealth 39+11 Poison Thrust WS = 1004 HP = 1243 Evade = 41.7% As you can see, this infi is only off by 100 WS compared to a self buffed ranger, while he has no buffs, but the extra pts Infi get, makes this possible, and the infi has access to PA and the fallow up stun, a decent dual hit chance, and his highest poisons. Which the 118 str/debuff will change the rangers stats to this. 118 str/con poison = vs ranger - 84 str - 59 con Pierc WS = 984 HP = 1066 Also the infi has viper with new RAs which helps alot with there dots, and even without, they still got a dot to add dmg. And a decent evade rate, so a ranger shouldnt be OP vs an assasin, just because they got buffs and an assasin doesnt. |
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