Eclipsed wrote:Last night i thought, hey why not ask mythic themself , what the purpose of self buffs are. And today i got a respone.

Hello Ben,

Self-only buffs are designed to benefit the class that they are given to for a variety of reasons. For some classes, like the Heretic, these bonuses help to offset some of the limitations the class has (low natural AF / ABS) while also providing additional bonuses for specializing in a certain line. These buffs are self-only is because while it may be balanced for one class to have a benefit, it wouldn't be balanced for all classes - imagine an ABS buff being cast on a heavy tank. By making these buffs self-only, they help to even the playing field for classes in some respects, and in others they provide benefits that reward you for specializing a particular way or for playing a certain class.

Hope this helps - the short answer is, "Both schools of thought are partially right in certain situations."

Best,
Lori Hyrup
Dark Age of CamelotMythic Entertainment, an EA Studio

/facepalm ... we already knew that, didn't we?

Why didn't you ask what the purpose of buffpots is instead?

Because live is now designed around pots and charges and buffbotting, so i knew id get an aswer that wouldnt help are classic situation.

And you know that these self buffs get there buffs to balance them out. Well then why are we arguing.

The bottom line is that self buffers are disadvantaged by buff pots. This hasn't been disputed. It's too obvious.

What has been disputed is whether or not anyone should care, or if that they were balanced in the first place.

Krinton3 wrote:The bottom line is that self buffers are disadvantaged by buff pots. This hasn't been disputed. It's too obvious.

Well if it is that obvious you can write two or three sentences containing the exact proof for that. So... go ahead.

/edit: To be more precise: What is the logical proof for the thesis that the disadvantage which buff potions and charges bring upon self buffing classes is different from the disadvantage that good templates and realm abilities bring upon them?

Krinton3 wrote:The bottom line is that self buffers are disadvantaged by buff pots. This hasn't been disputed. It's too obvious.

What has been disputed is whether or not anyone should care, or if that they were balanced in the first place.

Because selfbuff classes can never access those buffpots and charges, they can ONLY use their selfbuffs, right?

wooooow seriously?

I can't conceive how you can't figure out why self-buff classes are disadvantaged - not gimped - by other classes being given free buffs.

In solo gameplay, it takes away their advantage of being BUFFED while their opponents AREN'T, like they were DESIGNED to do. When other players have buffs, they have LESS of an advantage. If they decide to drop most of their buff line, and only use charges, they have NO advantage. Even if they can use some buff charges, they STILL have LESS of an advantage than they would, because they don't benefit from the buffs that their specline covers.

I think I've said it a million times. Everyone's counter argument ISN'T that that's not true, I've never seen anyone intelligently try to dispute that. What I have seen is that:

a) The advantages found in the speclines are negligible
b) Other classes need the advantage of buff pots in order to compete
c) In the grand scale of things, self-buffers aren't important and aren't disadvantaged enough for this to matter.
d) It's already so worked into the server that changing it would ****** a lot of people off for little reason.
e) Some classes NEED buffpots, so in giving love to self-buffers, you're also NERFing other classes.

HONESTLY I never said that self-buffers needed love, but I DID say that a lot of what Eclipsed is saying (not all of it) makes sense! And that self buffers are always the losers when it comes to buff pots charges. But the extent and relevance of this disadvantage is questionable

/edit: To be more precise: What is the logical proof for the thesis that the disadvantage which buff potions and charges bring upon self buffing classes is different from the disadvantage that good templates and realm abilities bring upon them?

Because, uh, self-buffers can still get... good templates and realm abilities? They benefit the same from RRs and Templates, because they get the same bonuses? o_o

However, if a Friar had himself a nice template, full of cool MP leather and was RR7, and you gave him a D/Q pot, he would probably go "No thanks man I'm a friar, I don't need that, in fact it's totally useless to me unless I drop all my enhancement, and then I'll still be sub-par because I'm supposed to have full buffs."

All the friar can really use are like str/con and haste and damage add, and the haste still kinda sucks on a friar. This doesn't even it out, because while this does add some HP and a little damage to the friar on top of what he has, all of his enemies have a LOT of stuff stacked on top of what they already have.

Less of an advantage given to them by their specline. Not to say that they were gods in an unpotted environment, no, but every class has their advantages, and self-buffer's advantage is supposed to be the fact that they're buffed, and they're supposed to have an advantage (not necessarily be stronger than) over an opponent that has no buffs at all.

So giving their opponents buffs diminishes this advantage.

Did I explain it well enough?

Who cares about solo play?

Daoc isn't and should never be balanced on 1v1, smallscale action...

By taking away charges/pots you are taking away utility from 8mans also, which is so much more important than solo.

Krinton3 wrote:HONESTLY I never said that self-buffers needed love, but I DID say that a lot of what Eclipsed is saying (not all of it) makes sense! And that self buffers are always the losers when it comes to buff pots charges. But the extent and relevance of this disadvantage is questionable

Yay!
see now, i can agree to that.
does it really have a big enough impact to justify removing them?
whats worse, for selfbuffclasses to have them in or for nonselfbuffclasses to take them out?

on account of the friar, does it really matter? in an one on one against that i can use as many pots as i want, even ip and ancient healthpots wont safe me. even lower level / rr.

granted, i will lose with a smaller gap then being completly unbuffed, but does that justify removal.

Krinton3 wrote:wooooow seriously?

I can't conceive how you can't figure out why self-buff classes are disadvantaged - not gimped - by other classes being given free buffs.

In solo gameplay, it takes away their advantage of being BUFFED while their opponents AREN'T, like they were DESIGNED to do. When other players have buffs, they have LESS of an advantage. If they decide to drop most of their buff line, and only use charges, they have NO advantage. Even if they can use some buff charges, they STILL have LESS of an advantage than they would, because they don't benefit from the buffs that their specline covers.

I think I've said it a million times. Everyone's counter argument ISN'T that that's not true, I've never seen anyone intelligently try to dispute that. What I have seen is that:

a) The advantages found in the speclines are negligible
b) Other classes need the advantage of buff pots in order to compete
c) In the grand scale of things, self-buffers aren't important and aren't disadvantaged enough for this to matter.
d) It's already so worked into the server that changing it would [I am a little bunny and like flowers] a lot of people off for little reason.
e) Some classes NEED buffpots, so in giving love to self-buffers, you're also NERFing other classes.

HONESTLY I never said that self-buffers needed love, but I DID say that a lot of what Eclipsed is saying (not all of it) makes sense! And that self buffers are always the losers when it comes to buff pots charges. But the extent and relevance of this disadvantage is questionable

/edit: To be more precise: What is the logical proof for the thesis that the disadvantage which buff potions and charges bring upon self buffing classes is different from the disadvantage that good templates and realm abilities bring upon them?

Because, uh, self-buffers can still get... good templates and realm abilities? They benefit the same from RRs and Templates, because they get the same bonuses? o_o

However, if a Friar had himself a nice template, full of cool MP leather and was RR7, and you gave him a D/Q pot, he would probably go "No thanks man I'm a friar, I don't need that, in fact it's totally useless to me unless I drop all my enhancement, and then I'll still be sub-par because I'm supposed to have full buffs."

All the friar can really use are like str/con and haste and damage add, and the haste still kinda sucks on a friar. This doesn't even it out, because while this does add some HP and a little damage to the friar on top of what he has, all of his enemies have a LOT of stuff stacked on top of what they already have.

Less of an advantage given to them by their specline. Not to say that they were gods in an unpotted environment, no, but every class has their advantages, and self-buffer's advantage is supposed to be the fact that they're buffed, and they're supposed to have an advantage (not necessarily be stronger than) over an opponent that has no buffs at all.

So giving their opponents buffs diminishes this advantage.

Did I explain it well enough?

Yes and for the first time I read a post of yours that was completely earnest. I really liked that.

You stated that enemies using buff potions and charges take away some advantages of the self-buffing classes. For me this is from language point of view something different than adding disadvantages but I think now we met. So first point I would like to say:

1) I agree on the fact that enemies using buff potions and charges take away some advantages of the self-buffing classes.

Now the only remaining question is: Does this fact justify a removal or further nerf of the buff potions and charges? In my opinion it does not: As already stated several times before the self-buffs do not only lift you on the same "basic level" but they lift you above that level. If you now encounter an enemy with your self-buffing class who uses buff potions and charges that give him the respective versions of you self-buffs (e.g, you play a ranger and meet an enemy with D/Q, AF, STR and dmg add from charge) this appromaximately evens out the scales, nothing more. So both player now meet each other on about the same "level". Hence, and this is the seond point I would like to say:

2) The statement given in 1) does not justiy a removal or futher nerf of the existing buff potions and charges.

@ Krinton: of course they are disadvantaged a bit by other ppl having buffpots, i'm totally with you there.

I just thought you made it sound like they are too heavily disadvantaged by it by putting it in there in one sentence.

Some of you are still looking at self buffs as bonus and not a balance gap fixer. As stated by mythic and in that patch note, these buffs are ment to make these classes on par with there enemys, which include tanks, light tanks, stealthers, casters, hybrids and so. In many cases a self buffer with there buffs vs a non self buffer will still have less HP or WS or Armor or what ever else there enemy has without being buffed.

Yes a class like a champion my have self buffs, debuffs, DD, and is in scale. While a minstrel doesnt get self buffs. But a minstrel gets 2 DDs, instent stun, mez, songs, charm which can give them access to buffs and so on. You have to look at the big picture. If you want to see balance issues, try fighting a self buffer like a ranger or champion, while they do not use there self buffs and no pots or charges, and you on your non self buffing class with no buffs on also and duel and see who wins. Id bet the self buffer class would easly lose without access to his buff line. Now some of you say, well that isnt what your asking for, you think that charges/pot equaly benifit both. When in fact the champ cant use the 56 str/con charge, while a tank or light tank or any class who doesnt get a str/con buff can use it. Making the champ have less WS and health , then he would have if you didnt have the buffs

Every word you guys say, has been explained over and over, so go back and re-read. You think im repeating myself, but I explained first, you guys are just asking the exact same questions and giving the exact same points. You want me to say something new, then give a reason too.

Sigh. As stated by Mythic... buffpots should stay.

So removing charges/pots from group play is ok for you Eclisped, as long as it doesn't affect your 1v1 fun?

Neju wrote:Who cares about solo play?

Daoc isn't and should never be balanced on 1v1, smallscale action...

By taking away charges/pots you are taking away utility from 8mans also, which is so much more important than solo.

No, that's nonsense. Mythic has acknowledged solo gameplay, and there are many people who prefer solo over 8v8. If you don't think they've EVER thought about people fighting each other in small scale, and that everyone is always supposed to be in groups, why would they ever give classes the ability to buff themselves? Such an ability is negligible in a group, except groups that lack main healers.

8v8 IS more important, but at the same time it's not the only thing that matters.

So please don't come up in here saying that solo doesn't matter and any possible thing that might affect 8v8 is terrible.

Now, as for the effect on 8v8, here's what I see happening:

-Groups lose their access to Damage add or haste

This is the main concern here?

The solution? I'd be in favor of making buff pots more limited rather than gone. It would be cool if they were on ten minute timers, and if you die, the timer is reset. That way you'd still be able to use your favorite pot, and considering the already lowered values, it would have much less of an impact, and you could still keep that utility in 8v8 groups where you can have your missing DA or Haste.


And Der_Eisbaer, I understand what you're saying, I too am not sure if the fact that self-buffers are disadvantaged by buff pots is actually bad.

I really can't say for sure if they're overpowered or not. If they're overpowered without pots, then I would be in favor of a more balanced setting - with pots. But, if they're at an even level without pots, then I'd be in favor of, again, the more balanced solution - very limited pots.

The question here is whether or not the disadvantage is major at all, and if the class is already overpowered or not.

I'd, above all, like to see some tests done.

Eclipsed, if you want to help prove your point, do this:

Find some Hibernians of similar realm rank to you, fully templated and on the same level as you with gear. Duel them with them totally unbuffed and find out if they cannot fight on your level.

Repeat with both of you using whatever pots you can. See how the outcome changes.

Probably 3 of each duels would be enough for a test.

I don't know who might want to help you with that, but it would also help if you saved logs/sceens or frapsed it.

That's the only way I can see to settle this. To find out if Rangers are overpowered or not.

Now, you'd have to go up against a variety of classes, and I don't know how effective a duel is with another hib class, but it'd certainly help put this in perspective.

Same goes for anyone else with a self-buffer who wants to bring this to a conclusion.

ALSO

For testing purposes is it okay to arrange a fight with somebody from another realm?

----

All that is, I dunno, maybe not the best way of doing it, but I think it's a lot more effective than this bickering.

From my personal experiences, I've seen Friars go up against guys and be on even grounds unbuffed.

I want to see more on this other than speculation.

Krinton3 wrote:From my personal experiences, I've seen Friars go up against guys and be on even grounds unbuffed.

No, you haven't (except maybe healers).