What the hell is my smite cleric gonna gain from pots.

How is a lower buff value , away to keep it not like buffbot like behaviour ? Your still getting a buff that origenaly you wouldnt of gotten. Its a buff that you are not designed to need. Unlike classes like the champion, who require his spec str/con self buff. Even stated by mythic needing the extra con to compete with tanks, but if you give a tank spec str/con , that kinda ignores what mythic did doesnt it.

Yes buff pots and charges are useable by anyone, only problem is classes with self buffs can not use some of these pots and charges, because they have self buff lines, which they have to spec, or they lose more. And just because they can self buff, doesnt mean they equaly gain the same benifit as other classes, as i explain and you ignored <-- talking to most of you, since you share the same brain.

And yes without dex/qui and acuity a caster would cast slower and for a little less dmg. But at the same time a class like a tank would have less dmg stats , less health, less swing speed and so on, so in the long run it would still be balanced, and my suggestion is with old ra's so everyone will have access to haste RA's and CC's will be much more effective.

So far i havent really seen any good agruements agenst what i explain, even some of it you guys ignore i said, prob because you have no way to counter it, exept with the normal " x class isnt suppose to beat y class " and you base that on ..... well your own knowlege of the game, which is what. Your grp vs grp experence, your shard experence, or live where you had expansions flying in your face.

Zarkor wrote:The main issue here is the tank vs caster balance (casting speed will be nerfed to shreds, tanks will still inc you at same speed).

This would look different with the old realmbility mastery of the art. In addition, characters with ranged attacks would be more fragile to crowdcontrol. Those who can use the charge ability now would loose their immunity to these spells in addition. Not to forget their stats and therefore the damage being lower without charges, if you talk about solo fights.

yep, which would make a fight last longer and QC being up again, more likely in a fight, then a tank/light tank with buffs just taking you out in seconds.

That light tank also has an additional interrupt because of DD charge. Remove that too please.

He also has end regen because of end pot, giving him permasprint with LW2. Remove that too please.

He can also heal himself because of heal pots. Remove that too please.


Reduce alchemy to procs and dyes. Thank you.

Every post from a GM/Moderator in this thread so far has been in support of it, whilst the majority seem to disagree.

Just wondering when you will be removing charges and buff pots?

Eclipsed wrote:How is a lower buff value , away to keep it not like buffbot like behaviour ? Your still getting a buff that origenaly you wouldnt of gotten. Its a buff that you are not designed to need. Unlike classes like the champion, who require his spec str/con self buff. Even stated by mythic needing the extra con to compete with tanks, but if you give a tank spec str/con , that kinda ignores what mythic did doesnt it.

Yes buff pots and charges are useable by anyone, only problem is classes with self buffs can not use some of these pots and charges, because they have self buff lines, which they have to spec, or they lose more. And just because they can self buff, doesnt mean they equaly gain the same benifit as other classes, as i explain and you ignored <-- talking to most of you, since you share the same brain.

And yes without dex/qui and acuity a caster would cast slower and for a little less dmg. But at the same time a class like a tank would have less dmg stats , less health, less swing speed and so on, so in the long run it would still be balanced, and my suggestion is with old ra's so everyone will have access to haste RA's and CC's will be much more effective.

So far i havent really seen any good agruements agenst what i explain, even some of it you guys ignore i said, prob because you have no way to counter it, exept with the normal " x class isnt suppose to beat y class " and you base that on ..... well your own knowlege of the game, which is what. Your grp vs grp experence, your shard experence, or live where you had expansions flying in your face.

u r wrong.

Nayru wrote:

Zarkor wrote:The main issue here is the tank vs caster balance (casting speed will be nerfed to shreds, tanks will still inc you at same speed).

This would look different with the old realmbility mastery of the art. In addition, characters with ranged attacks would be more fragile to crowdcontrol. Those who can use the charge ability now would loose their immunity to these spells in addition. Not to forget their stats and therefore the damage being lower without charges, if you talk about solo fights.

Good point, however light tanks will keep some form of charge, they won't lose it completely.

I will agree that casters will get some form of self-castingspeed buff through MotA and will have to rely less on buffs for that.
However, removing buffs and charges (which would be completely custom, even more than the current nerf) would still imply a very serious advantage from spec buffs over any setup without it, making smallman RvR fishing from a smaller possible playerpool again.

Also, removing buffpots and charges would imo be one of the things we don't need at all. They're handy, they're fun, they do no harm vs selfbuffing classes since they can aslo use the ones they can't selfbuff AND the values and re-use timers have been nerf together with charge costs.

Removing them would mean a serious devaluation of gameplay in my opinion and would (like removing SI-classes) remove a big part of the RvR playstyle as we know it aswell. Not to mention there's hardly any real benefit to all this if you look at it.



Off-Topic! (split to an existing topic could be nice): Since you are speculating so freely about custom measures in combination with Old RAs (which I don't mind at all! ^^), I would like to point out the major imbalance that nearsight on a 2 minute timer would create. Changing it to a 1 minute duration timer would be a simply, effective and classic measure to tune down this imbalance. It would not only be easier and less controversial than this whole 'remove buffpots and charges' topic, it would also be a lot more balancing!
PS: We run 2 light elds usually, so you can't reallyblame me for wanting a custom change to my advantage...

Nymeros wrote:That light tank also has an additional interrupt because of DD charge. Remove that too please.

He also has end regen because of end pot, giving him permasprint with LW2. Remove that too please.

He can also heal himself because of heal pots. Remove that too please.


Reduce alchemy to procs and dyes. Thank you.

Yes classes that couldnt range intrupt, can so with charged dds, but at the same time, those who could without, now have 2 intrupts. But you dont have to remove it, just reduce the range to melee range, like 300.

End regen pot is only like 2min, but he could use it for that reason, but at the cost of use with being able to use any other pot, like healing themself. But anyone can use it, even a class like a bard, who can use it and run speed song instead.

Heal pots are very low value and very , plus anyone can use them, even a healer, it doesnt reduce his heals effectiveness.

Procs, Dyes, Reactives, short range dds, short range dots, and so on.

Amadeth wrote: u r wrong.

Please explain, unless you have no point.

Zarkor wrote: Good point, however light tanks will keep some form of charge, they won't lose it completely.

I will agree that casters will get some form of self-castingspeed buff through MotA and will have to rely less on buffs for that.
However, removing buffs and charges (which would be completely custom, even more than the current nerf) would still imply a very serious advantage from spec buffs over any setup without it, making smallman RvR fishing from a smaller possible playerpool again.

Also, removing buffpots and charges would imo be one of the things we don't need at all. They're handy, they're fun, they do no harm vs selfbuffing classes since they can aslo use the ones they can't selfbuff AND the values and re-use timers have been nerf together with charge costs.

Removing them would mean a serious devaluation of gameplay in my opinion and would (like removing SI-classes) remove a big part of the RvR playstyle as we know it aswell. Not to mention there's hardly any real benefit to all this if you look at it.



Off-Topic! (split to an existing topic could be nice): Since you are speculating so freely about custom measures in combination with Old RAs (which I don't mind at all! ^^), I would like to point out the major imbalance that nearsight on a 2 minute timer would create. Changing it to a 1 minute duration timer would be a simply, effective and classic measure to tune down this imbalance. It would not only be easier and less controversial than this whole 'remove buffpots and charges' topic, it would also be a lot more balancing!
PS: We run 2 light elds usually, so you can't reallyblame me for wanting a custom change to my advantage...

What do you mean some kinda forum of charge ? Because Determination is stronger ? That is true, but with that maxed, it reduces CC down by 75%, unlike 55% before, but they lose high speed charge with 100% immunity. Now your CC's may not last as long vs a light tank , but they will still work, unlike vs charge. Plus casters have access to tireless on old ra's.

Small grps may lose out on some buffs, but that is the disadvantage of being a small grp, the bonus is more RP to go around. Without so much buffing from charges and pots, it makes it more likely your class would be needed in a grp, then just being passed by for a high dmg class.

Yes they are handy dandy little buffs, that cost money, that you have to re-buff, and have to have access to an alchemist or Raid / buy a special item for a needed charge. Ya that makes rvr sound so much funner. And how is that a tactic, to run with passive buffs that do give you the upper hand vs those who do not have buffs. Well you could say, if you dont have the buff, then that is your fault, which implese you are required to have the buff to compete. Well ive heard that before....... if you dont have a buffbot, well that is your fault for not having one. I dont think uthgard is aiming for that logic.

Yes removing features that are on live, would be taking away features. So i totaly agree, lets add ToA, lets add Cata classes, lets add buffboting, lets add champ levels/ablities, MLs, Labrienth, and so on. Or do we want classic, maybe less features, but more fun to play. The more features you have, the more complex gameplay could be, but in the end, those features are just requirements to compete. And really screw with how the game was origenaly designed.

And there is a thread about custom changes and old RA talk, and there is tons of good and bad with old RA's, same goes with a lower patch, but if you choose to customize one thing, what about the other things. Why cant my ranger have MoS with old ra's, why does assasins have to get an ablitiy to see archers at great range vs no camo. Well it does suck, but i accept it and look at the better. Less assasin viper, truesight, volley RA that breaks any BTs and so on. If you want to custom nerf or make features better, you have to mod that classes other good/bad RA's to balance it. Unless mythic claims there was an issue with something, and you can find that statement on a site, then maybe some custom change to fix what ever, but just saying something isnt fair, isnt a good statement.

Eclipsed wrote:So far i havent really seen any good agruements agenst what i explain,

and so far i havent seen you make any valid arguments to support your claims.
since you want the change, that ougth to come first, dont you think?

and dont come with yet another apple and pears comparison.
just for once try classes that are actually in the same subclass and show that the nobuff types get a serious advantage over selfbuff types if both use pots they actually benefit from.
maybe even situations that actually happen, because i aint seen nothing yet from you that correlates in any way to every day expierence.
aside from that you cant take on a fullbuffed tank.


that would be something new to the topic at least.


oh, and by the way, tha example tank vs mages earlier?
saying that in an unbuffed situtaion quickcast would become available again?
i dont need 30 secs with my tank to make an unbuffed mage kiss dirt^^
surviving long enough to even get the first one out if the tank is in meele range is rare enough.
well, another apple and pears thing. seems like your theme lately.

Since you havent read all that i have, maybe like one post. You must of missed my comparison with a ranger vs an assasin, and that an assasin benifits from the buffs more. Go back and read, as many staff members alrdy told most of you, as i have too. Maybe some of you need a comparison for dummys........ maybe not.

And what are you basing your tank taking out a unbuffed caster with your tank ??? Your buffed up tank on uthgard ??? something from live or a guess. Also consider CC usefulness with Old RAs.

So please come up with a better agrument, or stop wasting my time. Heck go make your own thread agenst this, and everyone who doesnt have an agrument can post in there, then get it locked because it has no real points in it.

Apple this, pear that, the bottom line is:

Self-buffing classes have a disadvantage due to buff pots.

This is not disputable.

However, whether or not this is a bad thing IS. ARE self-buffers all overpowered because they can use buffs to increase their weaponskill/con, or are these assets balanced by other weaknesses? Or are their other abilities responsible for their overpoweredness on an open field? Are they even overpowered at all?

I'd like to see somebody go out with a self-buff class and have duels with even RR classes and see if they win most of the fights simply by merit of being tougher and stronger than them.

And somebody taking an unbuffed caster and taking on unbuffed melee and seeing how that works out.

What I'm seeing is that nobody cares about self buffers because they consider them overpowered. But are they really?

ECLIPSED:

I think they want you to compare Rangers to Scouts.

The real question is: Would a Ranger kick an unbuffed Scout's ass.

Personally I think the Ranger would have an edge even without PF because Dual Wield seems to trump Shields, and in NF settings and Purge on 5 minute timers, a Scout's slam and main advantage becomes mush. That was what scouts had to set them ahead of rangers, the ability to slam and then fill their opponent's face with arrows, along with superior archer abilities, even with ranger's PF buffs, if I recall correctly.

Well its hard to compare a scout to a ranger, in the sense of buffs and WS. Of course the ranger would come out on top. But we have to look at the scouts defenses and his most unique feature, the ablity to slam. Now a ranger with only self buffs , mostly 42 PF, since 50 PF is almost impossible with good melee, stealth and any bow. Now all this is based on old ra setup, so in the fight, we could see a scout go for a slam right away normaly, which if the 30min reuse purge is up, it will be purged. But if the scout uses numb to trick the ranger to blow purge, which he may, that gives the scout a easy 9 s stun after a few sec. Which then he can use Critshot... not volley because of the min volley range, but he can critshot twice, which even with out high dex, he should still be able to do some good bow dmg, with 2x normal shot dmg, twice. Then after the stun, the scout still has evade and a shield, and can spec MoBlocking. The scouts defense is what makes him able to fight equal. Yes he needs smart tactics, but from range, he can also block a enemy archers shots too.

So a ranger maybe has the better WS and better melee, but the scout has better defense and a 9s stun, if done right.

Saracen Scout unbuffed
_____________________________
39+16 Thrust WS (180 dmg stat) = 968
40+16 Bow WS (210 dmg stat) = 1299
HP = 1243
Haste from Qui = 20%
Evade = 21.7%
Block = 49% (42+16 Shield + 0 MoBlocking)

Eclipsed wrote:End regen pot is only like 2min, but he could use it for that reason, but at the cost of use with being able to use any other pot, like healing themself. But anyone can use it, even a class like a bard, who can use it and run speed song instead.

Buffcharge is only like 10min, but he could use it for that reason, but at the cost of use with being able to use any other pot, like healing themself. But anyone can use it, even a class like a shaman, who could spec full cave and some aug instead instead.

Heal pots are very low value and very , plus anyone can use them, even a healer, it doesnt reduce his heals effectiveness.

Buff pots are very low value, plus anyone can use them, even a shaman, it doesnt reduce his buffs effectiveness.

Small grps may lose out on some buffs, but that is the disadvantage of being a small grp, the bonus is more RP to go around. Without so much buffing from charges and pots, it makes it more likely your class would be needed in a grp, then just being passed by for a high dmg class.

If i had to chose between inviten a shaman for good buffs or a high damage class with buff potions - i'd chose the shaman all the time. You really got no arguement here.

Yes they are handy dandy little buffs, that cost money, that you have to re-buff, and have to have access to an alchemist or Raid / buy a special item for a needed charge. Ya that makes rvr sound so much funner. And how is that a tactic, to run with passive buffs that do give you the upper hand vs those who do not have buffs. Well you could say, if you dont have the buff, then that is your fault, which implese you are required to have the buff to compete. Well ive heard that before....... if you dont have a buffbot, well that is your fault for not having one. I dont think uthgard is aiming for that logic.

Yes. there are a lot of things to do if you want to compete in rvr and get the best out of you Char. But why do you reduce that to potions? Don't you have the upper hand vs somebody who is too lazy to get himself a proper sc'ing and runs with drops instead? It's the same thing as with potions. Everybody has the same possibilites, if you chose not to use something, you shouldn't complain if you lose against somebody who does.
Taking your arguement here for removing pots and charges, we would also have to remove proces, we would also have to remove spellcrafting. Hell, even all that lvl 51 crafting gear - why should anybody who invested time and money to get a MP 16.5 weapon have to upper hand over me wielding my training sword. That's unfair! QQ

If you don't have the right gear (Equipment, SC'ing, Buffpotions) it is your fault - you everybody can change that with little more effort.

And please stop comparing buffpots to buffbots - that are two different things. Not everbody could use a buffbot (money, slow computer), but really everybody can use potions.

Yes removing features that are on live, would be taking away features. So i totaly agree, lets add ToA, lets add Cata classes, lets add buffboting, lets add champ levels/ablities, MLs, Labrienth, and so on. Or do we want classic, maybe less features, but more fun to play. The more features you have, the more complex gameplay could be, but in the end, those features are just requirements to compete. And really screw with how the game was origenaly designed.

What is the state of the game how it was originally designed? Patch 1.0?

Unless mythic claims there was an issue with something, and you can find that statement on a site, then maybe some custom change to fix what ever, but just saying something isnt fair, isnt a good statement.

Good point here. but you scored an own goal here. You want potions and charges to be removed, you want a customized gameplay without Mythic stating that there is/was a problem with potions and charges.

I tell you something. On ARS I was playing an Inf. Without charges and potions I had no chance against Melee Rangers (equal RR). Even with charges and potions the good rangers could beat me lots of times. There was no balance until those evil charges and potions (of higher value!) were used.

On Live, i was playing the melee ranger myself (before the CD nerf against block/evade). Although i had a bb (and used it) my ranger always had 42 or even 46 Pathfinding. I was running solo only, so no mates to back me up and did very well against all other solo players out there. Did i regret the points in Pathfinding because of the useless Dex/Quick and Str Buff? Hell, no! The Spec AF gave me the option the use another charge instead, i had a great Dam Add and the speed shout. All great tools in rvr. Here without BB's the advantages are even bigger. With your selfbuffs you get much higher stats than with charges/pots and you can use more other potions/charges/don't have to rebuff all the time. That's great. I wished the Ranger was a mid class, it's like heaven. I really cannot understand how somebody plaing a ranger can complain about the current system.

Returning to the comparison of ranger with scout. Is Rangers Archery so much worse than a Scouts Archery that he needs additional 75 Dex/Quick and a Dam add? Is his melee so much worse that he needs 75 Dex/Quick, XX Str, Spec AF and Dam add to compete with a scouts (!) melee? Siure Scout has good defense with shield (on the other hand ranger having better evade due to dex/quick buff, taking much lower damage due to Spec AF buff and cutting evade and shield in half due to CD) and slam - but really, if i had to chose between slam or selfbuffs (ranger having 5 sec evade stun too), i'd always chose the selfbuffs (at the current state of game here)


My opinion: At the beginning Mythic didn't know which progression the game would take. With the introduction of charges and pots they took a first step to balance classes with those who had selfbuffs. The Buffpotions were even improved, got stronger, had a longer duration. The introduction was before BB became a real problem in rvr. In addition, Mythic introduced champbuffs. That gave on ARS rvr a much better balance.

Grrr, i have to repeat myself again.

When a self buffing class goes vs a non self buffing class, who has a pot or charge of simular self buff he has, that reduces his overal bonus for being buffed. Now yes that self buffer can use a pot or charge, but he has to reduce his buffline then, which he loses other things too, which makes it not a smart choice to drop your buffline, so you dont gain from some pots/charged buffs. Now if these self buffers had simular dmg tables, hp per con, or skills/RAs as non self buffing classes, you would have a valid argument that self buffs vs no buffed class is OP, but that isnt the case. Just look at a ranger vs any assasin.

Now your comparing my statement about 2min duration end pot vs 10min buffs, well problem with that, a buff would be more likely to be used before a fight, since its 10min, while end regen isnt needed till a fight. But stat buffs effect self buffers, while a end regen buff only effects those who can use end regen chants/songs, but those classes can use a end regen pot and use another chant, to benifit. A self buffer couldnt use a pot/charge buff and the self buff. Since stat buffs are buffed ahead of time most of the time, i really dont see people going without about 4 unintended buffs, which include str/con , dex/qui charges, and str , con pots. And that is only a 1min reuse needed.

Now on the subject about inv someone who buffs or use self buffs and add a dps. Well if your on alb, would you add a theurgist for haste buff or self buff it ? And that had been answered alrdy by people.

And you cant compare SC armor, or MP armor to self buffing, since self buffing isnt allwes easy to get, and has upkeep. While you SC your armor and your done, you dont need to keep putting money into it,unless you have charges to recharge. And 99% qual compared to MP is 1%, which makes MP not as needed as these buffs are. To compete on uthgard, you do need these buffs to compete with someone who also have these buffs. Now someone with self buffs, dont need as many buffs from pots and charges, but what they do get, doesnt increase there proformance, as it does for others , who dont get self buffs, because of there naturel high stats and dmg tables.

And the claim that buffbots are not fair because of money and computer, that isnt the reason we dont have them on uthgard, since a NPC buffer would fix that. Its because they screw up classic game play balance. And the staff also notices that pot and charged buffing has an effect also. How much of an effect and what to do, is what we are discussing.

GEEEEEZ, i need to add everything ive said to my first post, and tell every reply to go and re-read it lol. Sick of having to resay everything.