http://www.camelotherald.com/news/news_ ... toryid=389
- Added a self strength/constitution buff to the Champion Valor spec track to make them more competitive with tank classes that have higher natural constitutions:

Celt Champion (no Buffs)
____________________________
50+16 Blade (190 dmg stat) = 1124 WS
145 con = 1325 HP

vs

Briton Armsman (no Buffs)
____________________________
50+16 Slash (190 dmg stat) = 1302 WS
168 con = 1755 HP

So mythic claim of adding the str/con self buff to the champion is to make them more competitive with the tanks, as you can see how much lower the champs stats are to the tank. Now lets add the highest str/con in valor, which is 62 value, did get increased to 75 during 1.71 patch, but if we go to 1.65, that will be reduced to the older value, which with the 25% bonus it will be 77 value.

Celt Champion (50 valor spec)
____________________________
50+16 Blade (267 dmg stat) = 1375 WS
222 con = 1614 HP

Now as you can see the Champion now has a little bit more WS, but still less HP then the tank has. Now lets give the tank a 56 str/con charge. Now that is a lower value so by everyones theory, the champion should still be doing better, but lets see.

Briton Armsman (56 str/con Charge)
____________________________
50+16 Slash (246 dmg stat) = 1516 WS
224 con = 2026 HP

Now as you can see the tank is back to having a much greater value in WS and health, which just destroys mythic's origenal claim, back in 1.51. Which is before alchemy pots, and not too long after DF release. And before single computer duel logging for buffbotting.

So guys, please explain. And dont say, tank is stronger, tank wins .

Eclipsed wrote:So guys, please explain. And dont say, tank is stronger, tank wins .

you gave the answer yourself...
armsman = fulltank
champion = hybrid

hybrid is supposed to have lesser WS and lower HP.
see the factum...if you want compare 2 things than do it wie two of the same kind..

fulltank vs fulltank
or
hybrid vs hybrid

Eclipsed wrote:
So guys, please explain. And dont say, tank is stronger, tank wins .

But that is the exact reason... Armsmen is a tank, therefore does what a tank does.

A Champion is a hybrid, he is not supposed to be doing the same amount of damage, but has debuffs/ranged rupt to compensate the lower damage (supposedly).

Do you actually believe that every class is supposed to have the same weaponskill/damage/con etc?

Why don't you do one of your tests between a theurgist and a warrior, you will find that the theurgist doesn't have as much ws/damage - lets change it?

Why you cant just understand -.-

Arms VS Champ :
Arms have more WS and HP < Champ have Debuffs, DD, Snare

THAT IS CALLED BALANCE.

Wonder now if champ had same amount HP and WS like armsman? No balance anymore.

And as the game was ment as Realm VS Realm VS Realm not 1v1 then please stop the QQ. Mythic was aiming that people cooperate in RvR zones, in RvR aspect all classes are needed cause every of em have different utility and spells.

Please Close the Topic, hurts my eyes to see the QQ.

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The World Needs More Love and Tolerance !

BlackCougar wrote:they arent avoiding being steamrolled in OF, they are avoiding being steamrolled in EMAIN!

how many hundrets of times has it been stated that if you CHOOSE to solo in emain, you WILL get run over sooner or later?

and dont start with "well there is nothing going on in hardians/odin"^^

well guess what, there is nothing going on there because you CHOOSE it to be this way.

this is a fundamental difference between NF and OF.
you have a CHOICE.
while this concept might be difficult for some or even most players around here to understand, there is NO downside to it in comparison of being FORCED where to go in NF.

Well in NF there were choices to be made too.
Agramon was not the only place to do RvR.
It was the most frequently visited place, granted, but not the only one.
So in a sence your choices were limited by where people were.
So everyone interested in RvR went to agra.
But there was small grouping and occasional solo action with visible classes.

And now with OF, indeed you have choices.
But again, they are limited to where people are.
I myself have seen no action outside of emain, neither have the people I play with regularly.
So that leaves me with a choice: either go get steamrolled in emain, or go to a BG for some fun and a better use of my free time.
Guess what I regularly choose?

To get back to my point here, RvR outside of BG, aside from zerging and the occasional fg, is mostly dead.
And in order to encourage people to do lvl 50 RvR without the protection of fgs and zergs, the staff should rethink their decision to gimp the ability to use pots and charges to their full (live) extent.
Because when you sum it all up, they were reduced in effectiveness and if I'm not mistaken, were made more expensive to upkeep.
Its not a bad thing to have people who do the work of farming gold and items in order to be more competitive in RvR to do so.
Otherwise lets all go to a i50 server where you're all pretty much the same.

Amadeth wrote:Charges (STR/CON at least) are way to rare and expensive for regular players to obtain and giving them too much power over alchemy pots would only widen the gap between regular players and hardcore players who spend more than 20-25+ hours in-game weekly. I agree those charges should reward a player who has worked hard to obtain them, BUT not to such a large degree that a player that does not possess them would be in a great disadvantage compared to a player that does have them. This way you could make the charges give +200 to stats and say "Well, everyone has access to them, so it is fair.". It is not.

Agreed.
That is why pots should have values closer to live.
http://apothecary.4t.com/reference_statbuff.htm
I get why the buffs have a shorter lifespan, but not why their values are so diminished here.
Again, players who spend more of their free time here should be able to show something for it.
Don't get me wrong, people who are buffed/selfbuffed will always have an advantage, but right now its just not worth it to use charges/pots because of their lowered effectiveness and great cost.

Braxis wrote:Agreed.
That is why pots should have values closer to live.
http://apothecary.4t.com/reference_statbuff.htm
I get why the buffs have a shorter lifespan, but not why their values are so diminished here.
Again, players who spend more of their free time here should be able to show something for it.
Don't get me wrong, people who are buffed/selfbuffed will always have an advantage, but right now its just not worth it to use charges/pots because of their lowered effectiveness and great cost.

Now I'm not sure I understand. You say charges and pots should have increased value because solo play at the moment is "impossible"? So, basically, what you claim is that if charge/buffpot values are increased, you will stand more chance against groups? Say that again?!

As for one on one, how will increased values change anything? Except that you'll stand somewhat better chances at rolling Eclipsed, they wont change a thing.

Amadeth wrote:Now I'm not sure I understand. You say charges and pots should have increased value because solo play at the moment is "impossible"? So, basically, what you claim is that if charge/buffpot values are increased, you will stand more chance against groups? Say that again?!

As for one on one, how will increased values change anything? Except that you'll stand somewhat better chances at rolling Eclipsed, they wont change a thing.

Let me explain it to you.

Amadeth wrote:Charges (STR/CON at least) are way to rare and expensive for regular players to obtain and giving them too much power over alchemy pots would only widen the gap between regular players and hardcore players who spend more than 20-25+ hours in-game weekly.

If the pots were more livelike in their values, then charges (if put back as they should be) would not have a great advantage over them, seeing as pots are available to everyone without much difficulty, wile charge items are hard to come by and even harder to upkeep.

To further elaborate, I am saying that the recent changes to charges (reduced values and increased cost) should be reevaluated (and possibly rolled back to earlier live values), and that alchemy pots should be a little more livelike in value to shorten the gap between charge and pot bonuses.

As for the effect pots and charges have on soloing and small grping.
I am saying that more people would go out on their own and in small grps if the charge/pot bonuses were more livelike, and that zerging/fg would no longer be the only option open to us.
It wont change anything to the fgs (because their buffs are better and free), but what it will change is something for the people who are not interested in zerging and doing 8v8, hence reviving soloing and small grping in the OF.

Braxis wrote:

Amadeth wrote:Charges (STR/CON at least) are way to rare and expensive for regular players to obtain and giving them too much power over alchemy pots would only widen the gap between regular players and hardcore players who spend more than 20-25+ hours in-game weekly.

If the pots were more livelike in their values, then charges (if put back as they should be) would not have a great advantage over them, seeing as pots are available to everyone without much difficulty, wile charge items are hard to come by and even harder to upkeep.

To further elaborate, I am saying that the recent changes to charges (reduced values and increased cost) should be reevaluated (and possibly rolled back to earlier live values), and that alchemy pots should be a little more livelike in value to shorten the gap between charge and pot bonuses.

Or, you could keep the charges at their current values without messing with the pot buff values and thus calling for more possible imbalance and QQ from certain classes. I see no reason to increase pot buff values right now, and even less reason to increase charge buff values.

Braxis wrote:As for the effect pots and charges have on soloing and small grping.
I am saying that more people would go out on their own and in small grps if the charge/pot bonuses were more livelike, and that zerging/fg would no longer be the only option open to us.

No.
Current state of RvR has nothing to do with pot or charge values. You will not get steamrolled by FGs any less by having, say, 50% stronger buff pots. Current state of solo/smallman RvR owes itself to the Emain concentrated RvR action and long running time for Hibs to get to the said zone (and thus keeping Alb/Mid port times fixed at 8 minutes).

Krinton3 wrote:

something doesnt get "weaker" or "less useful" because there is something "else that does the same thing, just worse^^

The argumentation is that you have less of an advantage thanks to everyone having similar buffs, not that your buffs are any less effective.

I would agree on the spirit behind that. Players who cant afford/dont have the computer system capable of running multiple accounts should not be put in a situation where they are at a serious disadvantage

This is a moot point. I play on a piece of junk 512 MB RAM comp with a crappy graphics card and can run a buffbot at about the same framerate.

If your computer can't handle two instances, then your computer is already way below the minimum and you probably are already crippled by low framerates and really have no business playing.

Unless somebody has an anecdote that disproves this.

I think what happens is when you minimize a game it goes into "sleep mode" and takes up about as much bandwidth/memory as an IM program.

i think he was adressing the orignial state where the minimized instance didnt go to a sleep mode and runnin multiple account did seriously hurt performance.
and i second that, petpulling with ench with a druid logged in on the same rig was seriously impairing performance.
not anymore though, with the newer clients.

Eclipsed wrote:As i can see, many do not understand what i mean by pots and charges reducing self buffs effectiveness . So ill try better to explain.

First to explain how some classes gain more natural stats then others. For example the Celt Ranger vs a Briton Merc. Without any kinda buffs, these classes have the fallowing stats. w/ 10 str, con, dex for starting stats.

Celt Ranger RR6
______________________
Str = 85 + 75 = 160
Con = 70 + 75 = 145
Dex = 115 + 75 = 190
Qui = 83 + 75 = 158

39+16 Pierc w/ 175 Dmg Stat = 950 WS
145 con = 1278 HP

Briton Merc RR6
______________________
Str = 115 + 75 = 190
Con = 85 + 75 = 160
Dex = 93 + 75 = 168
Qui = 60 + 75 = 135

39+16 Slash w/ 190 Dmg Stat = 1219 WS
160 con = 1579

you keep comparing apples with pear^^

you just CANT compare different subclasses and use that as an argument, every argument made on the assumption that different subclasses should match is void by default.


no, you cant compare assasin with ranger.
you cant compare ranger with fulltank.
you cant compare offtank with hybrid.

you-just-cant.

what you CAN directly compare to a certain extend is:

armsmen/merc - hero/bm - warrior/bers.

paladin - champion - thane.
reaver - valewalker - savage.

scout - ranger - hunter.
infiltrator - nightshade - shadowblade.


the second you compare different subclasses with each other everything you say has no meaning whatsover.
and i havent made you see such a comparison yet.
because you say, you cant compare a ranger to a scout or a hunter. well, thats excatly what you HAVE to compare to make a point.



until you realize this, again, everything you say is void.

Back to topic... I personally would be happy to see Uthgard a zero buffbot server, removing charges & stat buff potions... Not because of a question of balance, but it would give a more original, classic feel. It is like comparing the server to the Olympics with strict anti-drug rules, but now everyone can buy a pack of performance enhancing steroids from time to time, which for me makes winning less impressive.

I vote for the anti-drug rules again ^^

You can vote as much as you can, but the pots and charges have been for way too long in the game, that means GMs will never remove em, unless we go to 1.0 patch.

Amadeth wrote:Current state of RvR has nothing to do with pot or charge values. You will not get steamrolled by FGs any less by having, say, 50% stronger buff pots.

Again, you misunderstand my point.
I am not disputing the fact that I will get rolled again by fgs/zerg, but that there may be others like me out there if the said values are modified, hence giving us an opportunity to do solo/small man RvR.

Amadeth wrote:Current state of solo/smallman RvR owes itself to the Emain concentrated RvR action and long running time for Hibs to get to the said zone (and thus keeping Alb/Mid port times fixed at 8 minutes).

Anyone else share my concerns for the current RvR situation?

Runis wrote:

Nymeros wrote:

Plus ive heard many say savages are not as strong as they should be.

Oh. My. God.

Well since the "fix" i dont remember having a quad hit on my svg anymore. But im too lazy to test and i bet Hedra wont.

Poor you.. But you are right - I won't ^^
If you are too lazy to autoattack a dummy I can't help it, and I don't even have acces to savage for test anymore.

This discussion should have ended a long time ago if you ask me. Buffs in general for solo / smallmans are needed to compete to anything that has spec buffs (selfbuffs are just an inbetween).

This is mainly the case with casters. Removing the option to buff dex on a solo or smallman caster will make them next to useless outside grps without a specbuff class.

It might look fancy to you, Eclipsed, to have buffspots and charged removed, but in fact you should stop complaining about it and making unrelated comparisons regarding classes is doing more harm than good. You should thank the staff for deciding on customising the values and re-use timers on buffpots to nerf them to what they are, because if Uthgard neglected this and went for the livelike implementation purely to be livelike (which is not always a good idea, as shown here), you would even be off worse than you are now.

I'm thankful the staff has found a reasonable solution to all this, and I'm hoping staff will continue to follow this line of thinking throughout other aspects of Uthgard's setting that require some modification in the name of balance (such as RAs, NS, ...).


To sum up:
- buff pots/charges are nerfed to keep things away from the buffbotlike behaviour they might cause.
- buff pots/charges are available to any class and even selfbuff classes also gain advantages from them.
- buff pots/charges are vital for some classes to be able to do smth decently without spec buffs. The main issue here is the tank vs caster balance (casting speed will be nerfed to shreds, tanks will still inc you at same speed).

PS: I will leave the fact that this thread still didn't get locked as it is in this thread, but will draw my conclusions.

Zarkor wrote:To sum up:
- buff pots/charges are nerfed to keep things away from the buffbotlike behaviour they might cause.
- buff pots/charges are available to any class and even selfbuff classes also gain advantages from them.
- buff pots/charges are vital for some classes to be able to do smth decently without spec buffs. The main issue here is the tank vs caster balance (casting speed will be nerfed to shreds, tanks will still inc you at same speed).

perfect explanation imo