buffpots and charges in a non-buffbot classic setting
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Well since the "fix" i dont remember having a quad hit on my svg anymore. But im too lazy to test and i bet Hedra wont. |
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I guess since i am here posting for a little while (still waiting for some staff responses on some issues) ill interject my own view and opinion on this custom change.
I'm not in favorof custom changes as a general principal because I think that if you want to change overall feature mechanics in daoc then you need to take a comprehensive approach and not incremental-ism. I believe incremental-ism is why mythic ultimately lost sight of the big picture of how all their features were supposed to work together. When you make a change to one feature that is as interconnected game as this one, then you can affect the behavior of game play in all sorts of unintended areas. If this change were done along with a complete overhaul of other systems as well then i wouldnt find myself objecting at all to it. I'm not against custom changes, but only custom changes undertaken using incremental approaches. As for this particular custom change, I actually have some approval for it in the sense that, i think it was kind of absurd that players didnt have to spec in buff lines to get buffs that were as good or better than players who invested spec points. On that issue i agree that this may have been an improvement to offer incentives to get a certain line or to deny full benefits to those players/classes who dont have access to a self buff line. What i have a problem with here is over the logic used that charge values are reduced because of a desire to remove "buff bot" aspects to game play. I think this is an illogical premise to justify this type of change under based on historical cannon. The problem that people had with buff bots in the past was that players who did not have a buff bot were unable to compete versus those who were able to run a buff bot (or several). This created a situation where players were foreced to buy accounts to maintain a buff bot to compete in rvr. While there may be game play balance issues of unintended consequences for x class having "too many buffs" the real issue and complaint from players in my opinion, was over access to buffs and not whether having x,y,z buff made a,b,c class too powerful. I think the issue should be re-evaluated. The no buff bot rule makes sense in terms of creating even playing field in terms of access to buffs. I would agree on the spirit behind that. Players who cant afford/dont have the computer system capable of running multiple accounts should not be put in a situation where they are at a serious disadvantage vs those who have such luxuries. The issue with alchemy/item charges that differs from buff bots is that ANYONE can make an alchemist or obtain those items given sufficient time/effort put in. This brings us back to the access to buffs issue. Since anyone can have access to these items then i dont see why they should have been reduced under the logic of "no buff bots." Unfortunately, at this point, even if the staff decided to reverse the thinking and restated the reasoning to something like "item charges were reduced to encourage players to specialize in buff lines" i dont think anyone would believe it. The issue of credibility here has been tarnished im afraid. The only alternative would be to reset charges back to their original live values and perhaps consider another method for achieving the desired goal. |
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Agreed. With the coming of OF, visible soloing and small grouping has seen a vast decline. People are massing at BGs to avoid being steamrolled by zergs and rr10 fgs in the OF. Not to mention the amount of time wasted by such an endeavor. In light of these affects the OF had to the community, there should be a reevaluation of the recent changes to the charge/pot system, making it cheaper again, and setting the values back to be more livelike. |
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they arent avoiding being steamrolled in OF, they are avoiding being steamrolled in EMAIN! how many hundrets of times has it been stated that if you CHOOSE to solo in emain, you WILL get run over sooner or later? and dont start with "well there is nothing going on in hardians/odin"^^ well guess what, there is nothing going on there because you CHOOSE it to be this way. this is a fundamental difference between NF and OF. you have a CHOICE. while this concept might be difficult for some or even most players around here to understand, there is NO downside to it in comparison of being FORCED where to go in NF. and again, about the buffpots: yes, i have an alchemist. two, actually. yes, every char of mine is equiped with at least 2 barrels, my vale actually runs around with: mana, mana reg, endu, health, haste, d/q, s/c, str, dex. and i even carried a barrel damage shield for a while. to do at least a little damage, even if i couldnt hit my target for the life of me. and guess what, i still dont play it in rvr because no matter how many pots i carry around, you never use more then 2 permanent and 1-2 instant. you cant keep up with the 10 min timers. even if i sit and wait somewhere and add them one after the other and JUST after drinking the 9th pot get into a fight, i still lose. even a s/c charge and a str pot wont give me enough WS to actually hit a high dex assasin class good enough to kill him before he kills me, with or without him using dex pots/charges. i still have less hp than any tank and my oh so famous instants from the arboreal line never land anyway. even the so uber haste self instant doesnt really cut it since you burn through your endu like there is no "in 2 minutes" and all your pretty style bonus is gone. that only works if you have a permanent source of endu. only reason to spec arboreal it is for the ABS. and that is an requirement. even with gulping endu reg or instant, the style i do most damage with drains me with 3 uses. thats not failing one of the 6 required styles. which works fine on mobs. which never works in rvr. and yes, i have a ranger. and yes - and here comes the hammer - even with carring all kinds of pots around, my ranger STILL has 42 pathfinding^^ even IF there would be only a 3 seconds timer on potions instead of 60 seconds, i STILL would have 42 PF. since the buffs i get from that line are just way more powerfull, i get a really nice damage add and a speedbuff, while useless to get away on account of being broken by a gust of wind, is still usefull to run someone down. or just get from druim ligen to tnn in a hurry. and the one thing i SO hate to read here over and over again is that buff potions REDUCE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF SELFBUFFS! that makes NO sense whatsoever^^ have you ever read and understand what your saying? something doesnt get "weaker" or "less useful" because there is something "else that does the same thing, just worse^^ you wouldnt trade a horse for a mule for a long distance ride because the mule takes less skill to ride? the difference to the lower level shrinks a bit, that is all^^ gives em a mule instead of going by foot. so the scout doesnt have a selfbuff line. i have. so he uses potions. so do i. so he gets a bit more out of the potions then me. he has a slam. i have purge. he has a high bow range. i have high stealth. he has higher start dex. i have two weapons and a 7DPS dmg add. i have 22 DPS per hand. i have way more AF. im still stronger. because my buffline gives me tools he cant get from potions. in the best case poor excuses of what i have. because he has to buff far more then me to reach the same overall synergy. and still have it less powerful. good, if i face a berserker headon and hes not buffed, he most likely dies. if hes buffed up and goes hamster on me, he will kick my ass. and you know what? thats the way it should be. a berserker has no business getting killed by a selfbuffed ranger. even IF i get the jump on him and can get out 3 styles before he can do anything. he should wipe the floor with me. but he doesnt always do it. or rather, he rarely does. thats on account of the meele damages values ARE OVERALL LOWER then on live. and that makes me "less weak" then it does him. and my buffs counter that a mit more. so i win out. i have the same hero here that i had on live. same temp, same weapon, same race, same starting points, same RR atm, same RAs, heck even the name is the same. yet my live hero hit 400-800+crits on sced targets. easy. here its 150-300+crits. i never onehitted someone on this server given equal level. i never seen someone get onehitted on this server given an equal level. and it used to be a not uncommon occurense, especially targeting mages whos buffer just died. 750+crit BAM your dead. my sced ench was onehitted at least 3 times a day. by scouts. by warriors. by mercs. by PAs. and then some. even with a BB and 0 PF, full weapon/cd spec on my live ranger i could not take on a pot/charge buffed tank on live. because no matter how strong my buffbot made me, if he got a stun in he could just utterly destroy me. the chars here are on a far more even footing then they ever where on live. and the potions dont change a damn thing about that. in the worst case they make things more even out, grant fairer fights. i shouldnt be able to take on a 5 level higher SB and force him to use a healthpot to win the fight. i shouldnt be able to take out 2-3 other players in a row if only i can make them mess up their powerul attacks and land mine. but i can. and most times i do that without potions. you wanna tell me none of them uses any kind of potions? none? maybe even that im the only sced player on uthgard? dont kid yourself. 3 of the 4 player that just jumped me gulped a health potion afterwards. think thats the only pot they have? the pots push someone over his basic level, yes. by far? no. but it adds excitement to the game and a certain sense of, well, uncertainty. is a selfbuff class still stronger then one without? hell yes. take on a friar. take on a battlewarden. hell, even a healer can kill me^^ or a druid. just takes longer. they will knock some sense into you, despite all the potions and charges you can get your hands on, 100plat sc or not^^ would they respecc their bufflines to free up skillpoints to push other skill lines? yeah, thats gona happen. for sure. guaranteed. all meele rangers will run around with a 44/44 or even a 50/50 spec since they dont need PF anymore. all the frias will be 50 staff, something friars could never do before since they had no other choice then to spec their buffline to compete with potions^^ i will respec my warden to 50 blunt, 35 regrowth and 24 parry. always wanted that spec. never could do it because there are buffpotions in the game and without my buffline i cant compete. come to think of it, even WITH my buffline i cant compete with potions and charges. just as you have said. well that will change if all goes according to your dream. go ahead. FREAKSPEC FTW! honestly mate, thats never going to happen. the selfbuff classes will be specced exactly how they are specced now and if you even consider dropping your PF once potions/charges are gone your an utter fool and dont understand the benefit of your selfbuffs. as insulting as that may be. its fact. if you get your will now with pots/charges; what will go next? what else causes you to be weaker then some others? /geezer mode on/ sc? RAs? realm ranks? CC? grwoth rates and effects on styles? those after evade stun style bum me out, tell you that. lets have them removed next. gives them a too big advantage. they can only win with that. sure. hell, those mages are a bugger too, arent they? those damn spells ar just to mighty powerful, arent they? should be removed too. and what about those damn instant heals those healer classes have? you finally got them down and they just pop right back up again. twice! better get rid of that too. specbuffs have to go in any case. makes them damn spec classes just too strong. and base buffs should only work on the classes that have them. cant let them run around buffing others, non-selfbuff classes. upsets the balance, ya know^^ cant let that be allowed. oh and them pets. especially them theurg pets. hell, those earthpets even outdamage a tank^^ that just aint fair, i tell ya. gotta fix that. and that chain stunning? man thats just wrong. once is ok, but then ya should be immune to that, ya hear me? and that str/con those bloody hybrids have^^ that has to go for sure. after all, it was just put in to make them less bad against selfbuff classes. cant allow that, no my son, that has to go for sure! and the worst of the bunch, that darn crowd control! what jerk came up with that idea? isnt it a fight? isnt it supposed to be an all out war? cant have folks standing around counting leaves in the middle of a war now can we? thats just wrong mate. that stuff gotta go! aint no use for it anyway, since m ranger aint has it. my ranger aint having it, no one should have it. and what i have no one should have except me. disturbs the balance of things, ya know? ya hear me son? gotta take all that stuff out^^ it aint classic^^ oh, back in the days, that was some real fighting going on. all just charging in, spilling guts all whichaway! so much blood ground couldnt hold it and spit it back up. grass grew red cause of all of that. the crows too. millions of them buggers. man those where the days, wherent they? not all that messing around with putting folks to sleep and haveing them sneak up on you and running around never getting tired and running away if they couldnt win, no my friend. you just manned up, kept your withs about cha and killed till there aint no more killing to be done! the river of blood! all dried up these days. never ran out of fresh supplies back then. the field of graves! none of that stupid resurection business! put all them gravediggers outta work^^ that cant be right. god wouldnt like it, ya know. killing ppl and have them stay dead is every mans god given right and none should prevent that by healing! goes against gods plan, ya know? that good plan hes got made up thousands of years ago, up far in teh future, all the way up to judgement day, whenn all the dead rise and fight! cant have that prevented by healing folks and waking them from the dead and putting them to sleep instead of killing them. just aint natural. aaaaaaaaaaaall that stuffs gotta go mate. good olde blades, bollocks of steel and a whole lot of faith, thats what we need again. just like back in the old days. good old days...... /geezer mode off/ i like having pots. i like haveing sc. i dont like running around in all epic since thats the best you can get. i dont want to pay 20plats for a rare drop that gives me 5% in two resis since you just have to have it. i dont want to nearly wet my pants again because i finally got all thre meele resis capped. even if it costs me in every other stat. i dont want to go back having more then +2 skill only made possible by realm rank. i dont what to go back to stoneage of camelot. it was not fun. it was a plain pain. |
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The argumentation is that you have less of an advantage thanks to everyone having similar buffs, not that your buffs are any less effective.
This is a moot point. I play on a piece of junk 512 MB RAM comp with a crappy graphics card and can run a buffbot at about the same framerate. If your computer can't handle two instances, then your computer is already way below the minimum and you probably are already crippled by low framerates and really have no business playing. Unless somebody has an anecdote that disproves this. I think what happens is when you minimize a game it goes into "sleep mode" and takes up about as much bandwidth/memory as an IM program. |
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As i can see, many do not understand what i mean by pots and charges reducing self buffs effectiveness . So ill try better to explain.
First to explain how some classes gain more natural stats then others. For example the Celt Ranger vs a Briton Merc. Without any kinda buffs, these classes have the fallowing stats. w/ 10 str, con, dex for starting stats. Celt Ranger RR6 ______________________ Str = 85 + 75 = 160 Con = 70 + 75 = 145 Dex = 115 + 75 = 190 Qui = 83 + 75 = 158 39+16 Pierc w/ 175 Dmg Stat = 950 WS 145 con = 1278 HP Briton Merc RR6 ______________________ Str = 115 + 75 = 190 Con = 85 + 75 = 160 Dex = 93 + 75 = 168 Qui = 60 + 75 = 135 39+16 Slash w/ 190 Dmg Stat = 1219 WS 160 con = 1579 So you can see that the merc gains more natural dmg stat and con, then the ranger. But you could say that is why he has more WS and health, so lets see the mercs WS and HP with the same dmg stat and con as the ranger and compare. Merc Stats to equal Rangers Str = 115 + 60 (-15) = 175 <-- dmg stat = 1162 WS Con = 85 + 60 (-15) = 145 <-- 1513 HP So as you can see, matching the dmg stat and con as the ranger has , the merc is still has way more WS and HP. So now lets lower the merc stats even more to equal the rangers WS and health. Merc stats to equal Rangers WS and Health value Str = 115 + 1 (-74) = 116 <-- dmg stat = 954 WS Con = 85 + 7 (-68) = 92 <-- 1279 HP So as you can see, the merc would have to lower his dmg stat by 74 and his con by 68 to be equal to the ranger, when it comes to dmg and health. So to me this looks like the merc has a natural self buff of 74 str and 68 con over the unbuffed ranger. Now lets add the maxed PF buffs to the Ranger, which has a str value of 62 and a dex/qui value of 97, which gives them a dmg stat bonus of 79. Well look at that, max PF and a ranger can just barely go over the Merc natural dmg stat with the ranger piercers. While the merc still has 68 stat worth more then the ranger. Now add a 20 value base str pot to the merc, which increases his dmg stat bonus from 74 to 94, while the ranger already has his self buff, so he cant gain, which reduces the effect of his self str buff vs the merc. Same goes if he had a dex/qui and so on. So please stop comparing stats with each class, like they effect them the same, and dont start with that crap that not every class should be able to solo each other. Yes the exeption of the healer classes, who can easly get into grps, the rest should be able to choose any enemy and have a FAIR fight, as long as they use what they get to the fullest. Like a ranger needs to take advantage of his bow also, not just meleeing , when he is spec for some bow. |
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I also agree that the game is fairly balanced in terms of solo gameplay. However some exceptions are nearsight classes killing anything without nearsight (I really can't see an eldritch losing to a caster), they have nearsight which has to be purged or they die, and stun, which has to be purged or they die. Well I guess they could run away until nearsight wears off and win while immune...? Still, it's not fair at all.
So, no, it's not balanced in solo - but I think it's not far from it. As it stands, there are only a few cases where a certain class always dominates another. Then there's asassins -> casters which is a joke, a caster would have to be the best caster in the world to survive a PA and viper3. Or even just viper3. I think the poison can kill them by itself. Balancing that would be a nightmare but otherwise the solo aspect wouldn't be hard to make fair. Realistic on this server, though? No. It's not. |
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Nothing. There's no other item or anything else that's unfair this way to self-buffers. Everything else is something they can benefit from or is a non-archetype specific disadvantage. Yeah I answered a rhetorical question, you got a problem? |
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and for those who will say. Well what about the assasins, like a nightshade, who is also have low stats / dmg / hp table as the ranger, but they dont get self buffs. Well that is true but they do get a str/con debuff of 118. So vs that merc, that would lower that mercs natrual self buffs by 59, and on top of that the assasins have better evade then the ranger, and other poisons like DoT.
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My machine is Athlon XP+ 3000 with 1024 MB DDR1 and some AGP GFX Card. I play one 1024 x 768. Whenever I try to taskswitch between two accounts there is a chance of 50% that one of my daoc sessions will terminate. Hence I do not have the hardware to support the permanent and reliable usage of a buffbot. So I think that is really a point to be considered: The usage of buff potions and charges does not depend on your hardware while the usage of buffbots does. |
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A merc is a light tank and should do more damage than a stealthclass. You keep comparing Rangers to Blademasters and Mercenaries - both these classes are supposed to do more damage than rangers, how can you not understand this? If you really want to compare damage/weaponskill between buffed and unbuffed, do it between a ranger and a scout. Both archers, stealthers, one has self buffs, the other does not. |
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Why don't you compare Scout and Ranger? Won't it support your opinion that selfbuffs only put classes in balance to classes without selfbuffs? You just cannot compare Stealth classes to Tank classes.
Natural selfbuff? Merc is a Tank, he should always have more Dam und HP than a stealth class. That's the tradeoff for having to run without stealth und therefore giving up the oportunities of surpise attack or ranged attacks. |
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Actualy you cant compare a ranger to a scout, because a scout has shield, which gives them a anytime stun and higher defenses, that is why they get shield, and not self buffs. If you want to compare two classes on simular tables then, lets look at the luri ranger vs a luri nigthshade.
Both Unbuffed/No Poison str/con debuff Ranger ____________________ str = 65+75 = 140 con = 50+75 = 125 dex = 135+75 = 210 qui = 103+75 = 178 39+16 pierc (175 dmg stat) = 950 125 con = 1208 Nightshade ____________________ str = 65+75 = 140 con = 50+75 = 125 dex = 135+75 = 210 qui = 103+75 = 178 39+16 pierc (175 dmg stat) = 950 125 con = 1208 Now you could say these two classes are equal now, but you have to count the assasins str/con debuff and the ranger self buffs. Ranger ____________________ str = 65+75 = 140 + (51 PF buff) = 191 - (85 Poison debuff) = 106 con = 50+75 = 125 - (59 Poison debuff) = 66 dex = 135+75 = 210 + (78 PF buff) = 288 qui = 103+75 = 178 + (78 PF buff) = 256 39+16 pierc (197 dmg stat) = 1015 66 con = 996 vs the unbuffed NS. The ranger still has a little more WS, but less health. But why not give the NS a 20 value str pot and a 63 value dex/qui charge. Which brings his stats too Nightshade ____________________ str = 65+75 = 140 + (20 base pot) = 160 con = 50+75 = 125 dex = 135+75 = 210 + (63 spec charge) = 273 qui = 103+75 = 178 + (63 spec charge) = 241 39+16 pierc (216 dmg stat) = 1074 125 con = 1208 Now we see the NS has more WS and more health then the ranger. Some of you will say, the ranger could get a con pot, or str/con charge, but the NS could easly do the same after 1 min, which still keeps the ranger below his origenal design. Self Buffed Ranger vs no buffed NS with Poison ______________________________ Ranger has 65 more WS then NS (6.8% higher) Nightshade has 212 HP more then Ranger (21.2% higher) Ranger has 14% higher haste from qui then Nightshade Nightshade has 16.1% higher evade then Ranger (61.6% higher) Self Buffed Ranger vs 20 str pot + 63 d/q charge NS with Poison ______________________________ Nightshade has 59 more WS then Ranger (5.8% higher) Nightshade has 212 HP more then Ranger (21.2% higher) Ranger has 1.8% higher haste from qui then Nightshade Nightshade has 19.25% higher evade then Ranger (73.7% higher) As you can see, with charges and pot buffing, the non self buffing class is gaining more, while the ranger has lost his effectiveness that his buffing gave him, that he had to spec for. Now yes he could drop PF for charge/pot buffs, but at the cost of also a dmg add, AF , and Speed. Now you my say, well the AF and dmg add makes it stronger then the NS, but the AF counters the loss of HP and higher defense, while the dmg add counters as best as it can the DoT. Now yes the ranger could go get the str/con charge and con pot, but in 1 min, the NS can have the same. Its not that hard to stay buffed with a 1 min time frame. Some may make it sound extra hard, but its not. Farming gold isnt hard, and you gain gold by killing anyway, same with BP for the charges. What reduces the effectiveness of a self buffer is , when he buffs him/her self with x self buff, and he faces an enemy with x pot/charge buff, no matter the value it will reduce the self buffs effectiveness, by some amount. And yes you can comare these kinda tests vs a Merc because a unbuffed merc vs a ranger is fair, because the merc still has more HP and still has more WS, maybe not by as much as youd like. But its not all about the dmg that makes a light tank or tank a pure melee class. Its every thing, the health, the extra WS, the easyer specing for melee, better melee driven RA's, and so on. But many think its because of the melee dmg only, because alot look at this game from face value and are use to buffed up servers, where these classes do have superior melee. But it would be like saying a NS is the best stealther class compared to the ranger, because his normal attacks are better or do more dmg. Which isnt true, what makes him more effective is his stealth skills, like PA, poisons, evade and so on. But a ranger has ways to counter some of it with buffs and bow. Need to look at the big picture when looking at a class. Just because you may not have the skills to compete without your higher stats with these buffs vs self buffing classes, doesnt mean everyone couldnt compete. Your use to them, and you assume without you cant win. Have a open mind about it. Go ask a self buffer to duel you with no pot or charged buffing. Your theory is he should just totaly kick your ass. |
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on this I will disagree. Charges (STR/CON at least) are way to rare and expensive for regular players to obtain and giving them too much power over alchemy pots would only widen the gap between regular players and hardcore players who spend more than 20-25+ hours in-game weekly. I agree those charges should reward a player who has worked hard to obtain them, BUT not to such a large degree that a player that does not possess them would be in a great disadvantage compared to a player that does have them. This way you could make the charges give +200 to stats and say "Well, everyone has access to them, so it is fair.". It is not.
One of the best books I've read. I agree with everything said. <strong>FIX TEH PROFILE PAGE SO I CAN CHANGE MY SIG PLZ</strong>
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ranger isn't a assasin |
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