Uh... it's called having two computers.

You are right, of what i found that duel logging was added at 1.6, while alchemy was added in 1.54, which is only about 3 months apart. And if i was mythic and i wanted to implement a new feature to make money with multi accounts, i would have to find away to reduce the effect of new buffbotting feature, by releasing alchemy, a few months, so people can level it up, before the release of buffbotting option. But we are not talking about removeing pots and charged buffs because its not on classic (1.65) but because its not what was origenaly intended in game play. Just look at before alchemy and DF and so on, some could say that was classic.

The question is, why does uthgard believe buffbotting isnt a good idea for there classic server. Is it because of the mass second accounts, which i dont believe since they can just add a buffbot npc. I believe they dont want buffbotting, because it effects gameplay for some classes, more then it does for others. So if we remove buffbots, why should we keep alchemy and charged buffs. Because it was on live back then, even though buffbotting was. Your bases is what mythic had going, and we know we dont want to fallow mythics game plan, or else just jump on a i50 or go play current live.

Also i havent seen a respone to this.

http://www.camelotherald.com/news/news_ ... toryid=389
- Added a self strength/constitution buff to the Champion Valor spec track to make them more competitive with tank classes that have higher natural constitutions:

So if mythic intended this, why do you all claim that buffs are not part of the make up of these self buffing classes. If you want to fight my claims, you have to fight all that i say with logic. Tell me why mythic said this then, if you dont believe self buffs are importent to these classes. And not try saying, it was a dum dev or something. That has been done alrdy lol.

Ati wrote:...Well before that only FEW was using buff bots, and mostly those were players also. So the dual log gave acces to log BB for everyone.

But this was about when the feature was available and used in game, not about when it became the standard for everyone.

Otherwise, before the advent of the ARS-servers , practically noone was using stat buff potions at all. Doesn't make them a post 1.80 feature either.

Well i can say that this disqussion is all most the same that

Remove all spell/styles/spec lines/classes... so lets all just run with blane weapon and base stats and only what varries is the Race u pic...

No sence

Well i stop spamm now will leave some space for someone else too =)

how is the removal of pot/charge buffs, the same as removing styles, classes and so on. Buffs are a passive bonus, which yes you got to re-buff yourself, in 10min and it does cost. Its not that hard to do, just costs money/bp. More of a annouyence then a strat to the game. It gives people that have been on the server longer, a bigger advantage over new comers, so its not a friendly feature ether. The removal will only allow self buffing classes to have full effect of there buffing lines, while non buffing classes vs each other will be the same, exept less pain to rvr, because you dont have to watch a timer all the time. If you think we have to have them to balance the game. Why havent you posted saying we need more charged buffs for lower lvl rvr, since all you can get is pots in BGs. Its because in BGs, people dont need to be buffed, and they seem to be fine, but you hit 50 and you claim you require these buffs.

But without buff pots and charges and going to 1.65, remember, one we can remove the 25% buff bonus, and i think some self buffs can be reduced to there origenal values, as of 1.65. But still remember, classes like a ranger, will not be able to spec 50 PF, without giving up alot, so dont act like there buffs are at no cost to them.

Oh....
Half of stealthers in BGs run with pots.

Whats so hard about getting pots? You spec alchemy up to 700, thats kinda, 4 hours crafttime, probably even less, and roughly 500g cost. Even my lvl 15s already have around 50g due to usual grinding.

A pot buffs you 20 base and 30 spec. A charge buffs you 57str/con, 63dex/qui. By implementing charges for lower levels, the values should be lowered aswell. Lets say:
lvl 43 buffcharge: 45str/con, 51dex/qui
lvl 35 buffcharge: 37str/con, 39dex/qui

So, paying 10g, instead of 3g per charge, for 7 to 21 more stat each 10 minutes? Did you ever think about these numbers yourself?

You still did not answer my question, that got deleted:

Do you want to have only ranger, friar, warden and thane doing solorvr? As a ranger, you wont have as many enemies to fight, as you have now, since 90% other people youll be seeing around will be ranger aswell.

Satz wrote:Oh....
Half of stealthers in BGs run with pots.

Whats so hard about getting pots? You spec alchemy up to 700, thats kinda, 4 hours crafttime, probably even less, and roughly 500g cost. Even my lvl 15s already have around 50g due to usual grinding.

that is not really a valid argument as you might as well say: "well everyone could just log a buffbot in"

but yet we don't have buffbots?
so why do we have alch buffs?

Weia wrote:The relevant differences show when you look at the stated reasons against buffbots.
Do buffpots make buffing classes obsolete ?
Will anyone exclude a buffing class from a level group because they already have buffpots ?
Do buffpots create an environment where players rather play alone with their pots instead of grouping ?
These negative effects on the community usually associated with buffbots are just not there with potions/charges.

You are right, Weia. One would answer all of these questions with no:

- No, buff potions and charges do not make buffing classes obsolete.

- No, noone will exclude a buffing class from a level group because they already have buff potions and charges.

- No, buff potions and charges do not create an environment where players rather play alone with their buff potions and charges (that follows from the first to statements).

That by the way was very nicely thought, I probably learned something today. When I look back at what I wrote I come to the conclusion that I implicated your reasons why buffbots cannot be compared to buff potions and charges: I was giving the reasons why they do not make buffing classes obsolete, why noone will exclude a buffing class from a level group because they already have buff potions and charges, why buff potions and charges do not create an environment where players rather play alone with their buff potions and charges. For some reason I just did not to the last step.

Weia wrote:Oh, and one thing concerning the much discussed influence on class balance: I actually think that it won't be selfbuffing classes that are the big winners if pots/charges ever get removed. The classes most incompatible with this current form of botting are casters. Funny enough, they were among those that got the most out of regular buffbotting, but as the most fragile classes, they have the higest upkeep to pay for liquid botting, and additionally as low strength classes are the least capable of hauling lots of barrels around. Removing liquid buffs may very well end up as a solo caster buff more than anything else.

That I see completely different:

1) because on ARS server mostly all non-assassin solo players had classes with self buffs because their base buffs lifted them above the "basic level" so I think the same would happen on Uthgard if buff potions and charges were removed

2) because a caster's performance heavily depends on its casting speed so in fact removing buff potions and charges would be more of solo caster's nerf than a buff.

nixian wrote:but yet we don't have buffbots?
so why do we have alch buffs?

Buffbots could prevent other people to log in, due to full server. Buffbots would reduce partyplay in PvE extremly.

--> Pots and Charges don't.

Buffbots have due to their big buffs a great influence on rvr.

--> Pots and charges are much (!!!) weaker, timered, cost money, have to renewed every 10 minutes. They have also influence on rvr but in a good and balancing way.

Alch buffs are a part of a classic crafting line. It is part of classic DAoC and not better or worse than any other crafting line.

eclipsed wrote:It gives people that have been on the server longer, a bigger advantage over new comers, so its not a friendly feature ether.

So are MP weapons, rare drops, even spellcrafting. Alch is even more friendly as it is really cheap to use Buffpots for you Char in Thid for example. Everybody can do that, even me as a new player on this server.

The removal will only allow self buffing classes to have full effect of there buffing lines, while non buffing classes vs each other will be the same, exept less pain to rvr, because you dont have to watch a timer all the time.

Right, many classes won't have to watch for their timers anymore, just because they won't go out solo to be farmed 24/7 by selfbuffing classes.

Why havent you posted saying we need more charged buffs for lower lvl rvr, since all you can get is pots in BGs. Its because in BGs, people dont need to be buffed, and they seem to be fine, but you hit 50 and you claim you require these buffs.

Buffpots are useable at lvl 5 and lvl 10 - charges aren't needed here. Buffpots are also used in the bg's, especially in Thid. But in the end, who cares about balancing in the bg's? They are a nice little playground, but all that matters is lvl 50 rvr.

Eclipsed wrote:how is the removal of pot/charge buffs, the same as removing styles, classes and so on.

Let me explane u this other way.

YOU CRY about BALANCE. If we remove all those things mentioned then u have COMPLEATE BALANCE, only differenc is the RACE what YOU pic, so you cant complane any more.

Also people say that longer being players here have advantage. Of they do, even w/o buff pots/charges. 1st they are ALOT higher RR, 2th they have WAY BETTER gear. So they still pwn the ****** out of you.

I cant solo with my svg, even with Fully Charged, i get PWNd by PD5 or PA+Viper3 . . .

Why Buff Pots and no Buff Bots ?

Easy, because buff bots give you up to 145-155 stats instead of 100>
(not familiar how many pnts u get from the charges+pots) but i know charge is ~60 and pot is 20 so let say 80, and 80 is ALOT lower than 145... and that is called balace, or else selfbuff chars would be way too over powered against unbuffed characters. For Example any1 remembers Holzmichel ?

Yes a high rank PD5 or a PA+Viper 3 may kill you, but my suggestion is for old ra's, plz go back and read. Plus ive heard many say savages are not as strong as they should be. The only true way to allow buff pot and charges to be balanced for self buffing classes, is to allow those buffs to stack with there self buffs. Would be the same thing without the buffs. But most of you see it as a str/con buff that gives the same % bonus, as a non self buffing class with a simular str/con charge. When in truth, non self buffing classes gain more from these buffs. Why.

Well a champions str/con valor spec buff, at lvl 32 is the same value or about the same value as the str/con charge is, and that is with a 25% buff bonus on the champion. So a champion doesnt gain a benifit over his charged enemy, up to lvl 32 in his valor, only his debuffs and dd. Now a champ could spec out of valor and use the charge, but then he loses his debuffs and dds, so that isnt an option.

Same goes for the base line buffs for classes like a warden. But since the only base line buffs non buffers can get is weak alchemy ones, it only reduces the self buff effectivenes a little , unlike the spec charged buffs.

Also keep in mind, mythic gave new skills to self buffing classes also, to make up for the effectiveness drop from there self buffs, vs a enemy with non self buffs. Examples.

Bard - Spec AF
Champion - Fatigue reduction chant, increase in str/con self buff values
Ranger - Bow specced buffs, freeing up spec pts
Warden - Shield spec, more spec pts, new chants

So if we went to old RA's and 1.65, we reduce mythics attempt at fixing these classes buffline effectiveness. Now some changes where because of expansion balancing, but others is because of how buffs effect these classes spec lines. Kinda like how mythic implemented str/con self buff for the champion, because he wouldnt compete vs tanks equaly. So add pot and charge str/con con and str and that will reduce the benifit of the self buff that the champ gets.

If all these classes can get there newers class balance fixes, why should we keep charged/pot buffing. Heck why are we going with 1.65, when buffbotting on a single account was added at 1.6. Why not go to 1.5 or 1.3 or what ever, then we can remove all this buffing, and some self buffed classes will still have there buffs. Then these kids cant complain, even though they will still complain. Just proving , its not about it being on live, but that they do not understand how the game works. Some just look at the screen and press buttons to buff and to taunt. Take some time and actualy get to understand how the game works. How each class is designed diff, how buffs effect some classes better then others and so on.

But i dont expect to convince them, they made up there mind about there choice. Staff just needs to do what they think is good for there server. Wether that consist with removing these liquid buffbotting, lowering there effect even more, or just keeping it as is. Just remember the first time you wanted to nerf these charges, they all complained that it would destroy there class and so on like right now. But after awhile it doesnt seemed to effect them, but it did help out self buffing classes a little, but only a little.

Eclipsed wrote:

Also keep in mind, mythic gave new skills to self buffing classes also, to make up for the effectiveness drop from there self buffs, vs a enemy with non self buffs. Examples.

Bard - Spec AF
Champion - Fatigue reduction chant, increase in str/con self buff values
Ranger - Bow specced buffs, freeing up spec pts
Warden - Shield spec, more spec pts, new chants

no

and warden/bard buffs really aren't selfbuffs as you trying to make them out to be...

you really need to remember this game isn't about 1v1 - it's a group game, where group characters have buffs for group members.

Cleric/Shaman/Healer/Druid are all solo characters right?

Eclipsed wrote:Bard - Spec AF
Champion - Fatigue reduction chant, increase in str/con self buff values
Ranger - Bow specced buffs, freeing up spec pts
Warden - Shield spec, more spec pts, new chants

I fear saying it, since im not convinced of removing/keeping charges/buffpots yet, but i should add:

Hunter - Selfbuffs put on composite skill line, freeing up spec points

dont forget scout

Scout - Selfbuffs put into longbow skill-line, to make em finally competetive.

Plus ive heard many say savages are not as strong as they should be.

Oh. My. God.