Eclipsed wrote:now your trying to charm me with how you care about the ranger, and make bow dmg stronger lol.

edited, as per Nayru's request: I have come to a conclusion that you, if you really think what you claim, are not a very bright person. This is a purely personal conclusion and, hence, cannot be taken as a fact.

Eclipsed wrote:And i didnt say to remove all of alchemy or all charges. Just ones tha affect gameplay design for those classes that gain those skills. Like buffs on self buffing classes, debuffs on assasins and classes like a champ

Ah, yes. Also: endo regen, power regen, health regen, healing pots (hey, healing classes are here to heal, pots need to be removed!), haste pots, damage shield pots. Are there any pots left then? Should DD charges be removed because there are classes with insta DD spells? Should damage add charges be removed? Those were all in classic DAoC, before alchemy.

Eclipsed wrote: And i dont see self buff classes in BG killing everyone. I just got out there with my BM , who is 30, and im doing very good, only went out there for a few min last night, was tired. Seen a lvl 35, who i didnt know was in a grp of 8, but i jumped him since he came at me, and i had him down to like 30% within a few seconds, before his grp got to me and pressed pause on my fight. That time i had a haste pot and str pot. and without, i know i could still do very much fine.

ROFL. not just the story, but now you also claim your buff pots didn't affect your performance much at all!

but since we're into storytelling, let me tell you another story of a certain ranger in thidranki to whom I happened to talk to yesterday early in the morning. the said ranger repeatedly literally OWNED a reaver that kept returning for revenge 6-7 times. the poor guy couldn't kill the ranger even after indigo-ing him for full slams duration. in the end, to show him some respect for his sportsmanship, the ranger sat down and let the reaver kill him. that same ranger also managed to kill a thane and a shadowblade in a 2 vs. 1 scenario a few minutes later. your story is nice, but it carries absolutely no relevance, just like mine.

Nayru wrote:I have been arguing pro buffpotion and -charge removal in the internal discussion that we had a year ago. Not for playing any character, but to get rid of the paradox situation to forbid buffbots and offering liquid pocket buffbots on the other hand.

I see the idea of the "paradoxon" you are mentioning but I think you are wrong with that one. Let me give you some reasons why:

- A buffbot's buffs are very much stronger than anything you can get by alchemy and heavy bossmob farming.

- A buffbot buffs you - and you're done: No rebuffing, no timers, you are just buffed forever until you die or log off. With buff potions and charges you have to manage your timers plus you have to rebuff every buff every ten minutes. You also have to face the fact that in long runs you can run out of buffs, especially out of buff charges.

- For a buffbot you have to work (i.e. spend your precius free time) once to get it to level 50. For your supplement with buff potions and charges you have to work continously.

- For a buffbot you do not have to spend any ingame money as it does not need any stuff. Using buff potions and charges continously costs you ingame money.

In a sports gym I would see it like that: Buffbotting is plain doping while using buff potions and charges is using the art of cooking fine and healthy food to supply your body with the stuff it needs.

Der_Eisbaer wrote:

Nayru wrote:I have been arguing pro buffpotion and -charge removal in the internal discussion that we had a year ago. Not for playing any character, but to get rid of the paradox situation to forbid buffbots and offering liquid pocket buffbots on the other hand.

I see the idea of the "paradoxon" you are mentioning but I think you are wrong with that one. Let me give you some reasons why:

- A buffbot's buffs are very much stronger than anything you can get by alchemy and heavy bossmob farming.

- A buffbot buffs you - and you're done: No rebuffing, no timers, you are just buffed forever until you die or log off. With buff potions and charges you have to manage your timers plus you have to rebuff every buff every ten minutes. You also have to face the fact that in long runs you can run out of buffs, especially out of buff charges.

- For a buffbot you have to work (i.e. spend your precius free time) once to get it to level 50. For your supplement with buff potions and charges you have to work continously.

- For a buffbot you do not have to spend any ingame money as it does not need any stuff. Using buff potions and charges continously costs you ingame money.

In a sports gym I would see it like that: Buffbotting is plain doping while using buff potions and charges is using the art of cooking fine and healthy food to supply your body with the stuff it needs.

It doesn't make a bit of difference. Your arguments don't make any sense. If you had to pay your buffbot 100 gold every day, and he had to run with you and rebuff you every ten minutes, and was level 35 instead of 50, would that make it okay? Or would it introduce the exact same balance problems, except it hassles people more?

Just because it takes more effort for less results doesn't make it pure and good and balanced.

It certainly is better than buffbots, but here's a nice analogy:

Getting stabbed sure is better than getting shot in the face, but does that make getting stabbed okay?

Nayru wrote:Another point is that nobody, except for Albion, would have spec AF buffs anymore like Mythic intended it at the very beginning in case there would be no more buff charges. It all has it's pros and cons. Nevertheless buffcharges lead the gameplay to a state far away from the original in some situations.

Pots and charges were part of DAoC before SI release, they are classic content - how can they lead away from the original? They were introduced with a reason. If you remove Pots and charges, remove the whole sc'ing and alchemy system, let's go back then to the real classic DAoC rvr with only drops having stats. Everything else is kind of gaga and favors a minor balanced rvr.

Krinton3 wrote:It doesn't make a bit of difference. Your arguments don't make any sense. If you had to pay your buffbot 100 gold every day, and he had to run with you and rebuff you every ten minutes, and was level 35 instead of 50, would that make it okay?

You just gave a pretty good metaphor of how using buff potions and charges is. In other words: You tried to use an argment that I myself used just one post ago against me what is not exactly what I personally would call very smart.

Krinton3 wrote:Or would it introduce the exact same balance problems, except it hassles people more?

What balance problems with buff potions and charges are you talking about? I did not mention any so you maybe clearify what you are talking about.

Krinton3 wrote:Just because it takes more effort for less results doesn't make it pure and good and balanced.

You are quite late, I already had that discussion with Amadeth on page 6, posts 84...86. I suggest you to read it.

Krinton3 wrote:It certainly is better than buffbots, but here's a nice analogy:

Getting stabbed sure is better than getting shot in the face, but does that make getting stabbed okay?

...and that anolagy has something to do with the fact that buffbots are far from being comparable with buff potions and charges because...?

Krinton3, seriously: Remember what I alread told you about your posting style. It is hard to take you serious as long as you 1) do not take the time to give your thoughts a structrure before writing them down and 2) do not bother to keep your writings free from emotianal dialectics.

Krinton3 wrote:...It certainly is better than buffbots...

It is WORSE than buffbots.

Around the time they became widely used, leveling a Buffbot was trivial. Hardly anyone had no access to a bot when necessary. Even the worst pugs would have at least one, and soloers without a bot of their own could usually get spare buffs from someone who had.

Buffcharges/Potions however require a lot of farming/upkeep, which means they are yet another advantage for established hardcore players over newbs and more casual ones.

This is only comparable to the earliest stages of buffbotting on life, when the few existing buffbot owners used them for easymode farming of unbotted players.

Locked

about time to get all this .... moved to offtopic section in a split

_________________________________________________
Reopened

removed a lot of offencive and offtopicness and renamed the topic to something more right compared to what is discussed here


this is the last time

next time it goes too offtopic this will get locked

Can someone sum up i a few sentences whats this all about?
I read all 16 Pages and posted some things myself, but Eclipsed edited some of his postings and nixian deleted 5 full pages and most of what i wrote and now i really dont feel like rereading everything and tomorrow Eclipsed edits his 50% of the thread again and nixian deletes some pages and then i have to read everything again ... great example how not to handle a thread imho.

Gerbald wrote:Can someone sum up i a few sentences whats this all about?
I read all 16 Pages and posted some things myself, but Eclipsed edited some of his postings and nixian deleted 5 full pages and most of what i wrote and now i really dont feel like rereading everything and tomorrow Eclipsed edits his 50% of the thread again and nixian deletes some pages and then i have to read everything again ... great example how not to handle a thread imho.

sure:

Eclipse/staff/me:

"Is it really classic and viable having a liquid buffbot (in form of charges and pots) when the servers main point is being classic and not having buffbots?"

Main counter-arguement:

"It would be unfair to remove charges now + it would overpower selfbuff classes"

Additional counter argument: All pots and DD charges should be removed when following the buff-pot removal logic.

remove all selfbuffs, spec buffs, baseline buffs, remove 2 realms, remove all classes except main tank

With which patch were Alchemy Potions and Charges implemented (i really don't remember)?
Because its very simple for me: If they were introduced before 1.80 (or 1.65 if Uthgard foes all the way back to this patch), then they should stay in game, but if the were added to the game after the patch Uthgard is aiming at, then they should be removed.

If they were introduced before 1.80 (1.65) and you still want them removed, you have to ask yourself why, because they were part of the game. Eclipsed has already stated why he wants them removed: He feels his Ranger should be stronger and taking away Potions and Charges helps him with that. Thats of course not an argument, but selfish QQ and Nixian will remove my Post for telling that truth again, but i dont care.

alchemy and spellcrafting were implemented a lot earlier. patch 1.45 or so.

Amadeth wrote:alchemy and spellcrafting were implemented a lot earlier. patch 1.45 or so.

1.54 I believe has been said before in this thread

Then i dont know why this is being discussed at all.
We have SI classes, horses, tinderboxes and lots of stuff that is not really classic and we really discuss to remove something that was there for such a long time, even before SI ?