well the issue with vanish and viper on all assasins, is because we still have not yet gone to the classic RA's / Patch. An update on progress would be nice soon, depending on what all has been worked on since last update. But if you think about it, the status of tanks/light tanks on classic live and uthgard, is how fully buffed stats effect a tank/light tank compared to a lower table class like the assasins. A higher table class will gain way more damage and HP from those buffs and the gap in balance is changed. Good old mythic, doing what they did best, with making money and getting secondary bot accounts. Lure of such imbalance would drive many to get a bot.

If buffs did not effect balance in that way, there would be no reason why every class that can gain self buffs by way of a spec line, had been placed on lower tables. No high table class normaly gets a buffline they can spec. So when playing a Nightshade with a buffbot, vs an enemy tank with a buffbot, your gains from your buffs, will not come close to what that tank is getting, which would make it much less desirable to take them on. But luckly uthgard is not aiming to implement classic lives buffbot system and balance changes. So i dont think some things will be exactly the same as classic live. Most classes can take each other on, with a fair chance. But you will need to know your class, and not just hit a few keys for large amounts of damage and a quick kill.

Since PA crit can only be 50% of the damage of the hit. A PA of like 1200 with a Crit would mean at best Crit of 50%, his inital attack had to be of 800 , then plus 50% (400 more). 800 damage seems impossible to me, as my 5.7 spd bow has a cap damage of 536 vs no AF. Im not sure if the bonuses from the PA would increase it that much. But then there needs to be some proof of that 1200 dmg. I play my ranger, so i dont see many PA's on myself, so i cant say if its not correct. People would have to post screenshots of many PAs on uthgard showing such high damages.

PA damage calculation on Uthgard takes the Cap Formula and modifies it with the absorb and resists of the target.
This results in a high overall damage but you will never reach the actual cap damage.

On live it's more like a "normal" style with about 3,5 - 4,0 growth rate but in tests I made it shows that there must be more variables than just the style variables to calculate the style damage component.

i've had crits with PA that were clearly over 50%, like 600+~500crit on mainhand when attacking realm guards. don't know if the calculation is different for players and npcs. don't have any SS or logs, always thought that's normal

Beanie wrote:No, he is quite correct. You're spreading misinformation. Shadowblades were strong when critblades were strong and sitting bonuses were intact. Nobody wanted to play a nightshade or infiltrator. Eventually they got buffed, sitting bonuses were removed, shadowblade damage on 2h was diminished and then came the two infamous left axe nerfs (which were sorely needed because Berserkers were 1 shotting everything not in plate/scale/chain). Infiltrators eventually became the better of the assassins at < RR6 due to dragonfang, but high realm rank nightshades were the best.

Critblades were good against caster, but mostly were screwed against other types of stealther or non-stealther, since 2h is too slow to perform creeping death (7 sec stun = insta-win) fast enough against e.g. an evade 7 class with dodger 3 and 360+ dex. Even with my scout pre ToA, I killed 2h specced shadowblades, lol (unfortunatley there were lonly few ).

All things considered equal (buffs and whatnot) assassins still didn't (wisely) attack shield tanks or even lights if they had any sense, because they would lose (except the rr8+ nightshades against low rr mercs or [sometimes] warriors).

Its all depends on the tanks equipment and spec. Group-specced tanks are much easier to fight than solo-specced one. Most tanks dont focused on solo RvR and went unbuffed and with group-spec into solo pvp.

Against a solo specced tank, it was nearly impossible to win, since those specced (and still specc) high parry, which is not halved by dual weapons.

[/quote] but in classic, all assassins never had access to Vanish, Viper and everything else. Viper was a NIGHTSHADE ONLY skill, whereas Vanish was an INFILTRATOR ONLY skill.[/quote]
But these RAs were much deadlier back than. For example, Viper could be combined with master of arcane for critical viper dots. And vanish could be used in combat to double perf enemies.

Their skillsets, damage, armor and abilities just didn't/couldn't overcome the tools of the tank.

Although assassins only have leather armor, they can reach 50% evade, which is stastically much better than plate. Asssasins have posions, which debuff weapon damage and hitpoints of the enemies. Tanks e.g. get 4.4 HP per con. 118 debuf posion removes around 1.25*118 con, which is around 600 hp with the initial hit. You can combine str+ str/con debuff to reduce the WF of your enemy. And you can snare and kite. The only "tools" tanks can use slam and switch to 2h, which is, of course, very powerfull when purge is down.

As I said earlier, my warrior ate a 1,200 damage perf (yes, I'm fully spellcrafted with capped resists and yes it was a huge crit). Classic assassins would be elated to perf a heavy for a 3rd of that. They didn't even hit casters that hard.

Thats correct, and need of course adjustment.

As i know pa damage miss 2 hand bonus. The max damage that i did with pa, was 850 with 2hand axe and 625 with one hand axe.

And about old times.

Assasins never attacked shield tanks cause purge timer. If now you attack shield tank with purge down, you probably will die too.

And about if ranger is overpowered its other story, but rr5, ip2-3 and pd4-5 are nice toys. I saw rangers hit for more than 200 damage with main hand (lol like merc or zerker). I only saw one assasin do this damage, and was really strange.

Now i dont know who is really overpowered.

I see so much clueless ppl and BS in this thread i cant believe it, mostly i guess from dudes with a rr4 tank with half descent template getting killed by a rr8+ ranger/assasin.

NOt a single SS so far either as "proof"

Take this as example

Although assassins only have leather armor, they can reach 50% evade, which is stastically much better than plate. Asssasins have posions, which debuff weapon damage and hitpoints of the enemies. Tanks e.g. get 4.4 HP per con. 118 debuf posion removes around 1.25*118 con, which is around 600 hp with the initial hit. You can combine str+ str/con debuff to reduce the WF of your enemy. And you can snare and kite. The only "tools" tanks can use slam and switch to 2h, which is, of course, very powerfull when purge is down.

OMG such bull, 600 hits removed from str/con? What game are u playing? Maybe on live u can take away 600 hits from a 2800+ hits fullbuffed tank. This is Uthgard where fullbuffed tanks have around 1800 hits and u wont take away a third of a tanks hits with the debuff. Half that number and u are more correct. And plate in combination with uthgards defence is good stuff. A solo speced arms/pala takes any stealther 1on1 with ease or they are gimped.

This thread is not about, who can kill someone in 1v1. Its just about PA damage.

pweet wrote:This thread is not about, who can kill someone in 1v1. Its just about PA damage.

From my view its pretty balanced, this is with NS with 3.9 spd weapon and 44 in CS. Most PA´s are around 450-500. Might hit thrust weak targets for 600+ but very rare. Tanks with high AF and casters with PD i hit for barely 400 even less then that. Never been close to cap dmg as some in this post claims u can do.

High AF seems to reduce PA dmg alot so i suggest running AF buff if u want to lower ur opponents PA dmg. Maybe its just 2H PA´s against slash vulnerable targets thats bugged but i want believe in this untill i see some proof.
PA dmg now seems fine (just above the dmg str/con debuff does) except on casters where it seems low to me. But that might be the effect of PD.

Zazo wrote:i've had crits with PA that were clearly over 50%, like 600+~500crit on mainhand when attacking realm guards. don't know if the calculation is different for players and npcs. don't have any SS or logs, always thought that's normal

It is normal. Guards = npcs = crits cap out at 100% not 50% like they do on players.

vangonaj wrote:Assasins never attacked shield tanks cause purge timer. If now you attack shield tank with purge down, you probably will die too.

Tanks were easy rps for assassins although you required some skill unlike uthgard's assassins, purge 3 + stick + garrote spam.

Jonah wrote:

Although assassins only have leather armor, they can reach 50% evade, which is stastically much better than plate. Asssasins have posions, which debuff weapon damage and hitpoints of the enemies. Tanks e.g. get 4.4 HP per con. 118 debuf posion removes around 1.25*118 con, which is around 600 hp with the initial hit. You can combine str+ str/con debuff to reduce the WF of your enemy. And you can snare and kite. The only "tools" tanks can use slam and switch to 2h, which is, of course, very powerfull when purge is down.

OMG such bull, 600 hits removed from str/con? What game are u playing? Maybe on live u can take away 600 hits from a 2800+ hits fullbuffed tank. This is Uthgard where fullbuffed tanks have around 1800 hits and u wont take away a third of a tanks hits with the debuff. Half that number and u are more correct. And plate in combination with uthgards defence is good stuff. A solo speced arms/pala takes any stealther 1on1 with ease or they are gimped.

Can you read? Apprently not. Otherwise you had noticed, that my post was focused on how assassins performed on live pre-ToA, not on Uthgard. And yes, with buffs up (and it was rather normal to go in PvP fully buffed by a bot), you got around 600 HP reduced by the str/con debuff poison. And, yes, tanks had around 2400-2600 HP with cap buffs, but, with the same buff, assassins had around 1800-2000.

Even on Uthgard, the debuff hits !unbuffed! hybridtanks for more than 200 dmg, tested by me on a lvl 50 paladin.

Jonah wrote:From my view its pretty balanced, this is with NS with 3.9 spd weapon and 44 in CS. Most PA´s are around 450-500. Might hit thrust weak targets for 600+ but very rare. Tanks with high AF and casters with PD i hit for barely 400 even less then that. Never been close to cap dmg as some in this post claims u can do.

I played a RR8 nightshade on the new classic server from mythic. To be honest, my RR8 bladeshade with 20P template my fully buffed with 330+ str didn't do so much PA dmg like my unbuffed lvl 50 RR4 Infi on Uthgard.

PS: And, nevertheless, I killed solo spec tanks with my NS (without any viper).

pweet wrote:This thread is just about PA Dmg, any plans to fix it?

Yes there are plans and already some tests made. Even though PA damage increased on live in one recent patch its way lower than on Uthgard.

High PA damage on a tank = naked damage due to intercept rate, or tank sitting down. I get high damage rate on my hero by a stealther if I'm intercepting for someone. There has yet to be a stealther that can kill my hero, unless Im simi-afk or there is more then one.

I find a stealther to do 3/4 of my HP with a PA or half to be this has not happened to me yet. Maybe if I run into a RR10 stealther... I dont know...

Blue wrote:

pweet wrote:This thread is just about PA Dmg, any plans to fix it?

Yes there are plans and already some tests made. Even though PA damage increased on live in one recent patch its way lower than on Uthgard.

They increased PA because of all the expansion where u got loads more hitpoints. PA didnt even mach the str/con debuff in dmg. Remember on live most chars have 800-1000 more hitpoints then here. My briton ML10CL10 etc infil had around 2200 hits fully buffed if i remember correct. After the PA boost patch PA got ok damage again, i did around 700-800 dmg on soft targets. Tanks i never hit for more then 500, specially paladins.

Casters where easy to kill as they didnt have so much hits increase from overcaps so most casters went down in 3 hits (PA,CD, SS). Here on uthgard i hit casters worse then tanks even if they have low PD, thinks its the AF buff that buggs up the damage. On live it was always 700-800+ and maybe 5-600 on PD users.

Cant understand why u think its higher damage here then on live, maybe percentually compared to hit points but not raw numbers. Stil havnt seen any SS of those 800 PA ppl talking about. Most my PA´s are around 4-500 wich i consider a balanced number.

But it needs a rework as u say, damage seems very strange atm when tanks can get hit harder by a PA then a caster.

Garad wrote:
Can you read? Apprently not. Otherwise you had noticed, that my post was focused on how assassins performed on live pre-ToA, not on Uthgard. And yes, with buffs up (and it was rather normal to go in PvP fully buffed by a bot), you got around 600 HP reduced by the str/con debuff poison. And, yes, tanks had around 2400-2600 HP with cap buffs, but, with the same buff, assassins had around 1800-2000.

Even on Uthgard, the debuff hits !unbuffed! hybridtanks for more than 200 dmg, tested by me on a lvl 50 paladin.

U know there was a 300 hard cap on every stat on old school daoc? No way str/con debuff took away 600 hits. U cant calculate debuffs like normal spells, so ur calculations are wrong. Debuff works better against buffed targets. And no u got those number totally wrong. A fully buffed char here has the same amount of hits like in old school daoc. The only way to raise it is with RA´s. My rouge classes can get like 1700 something with maxbuffs here, a tanks should be around 2100-2200. Can do a test later to tell u have much the debuff will take away from a fully buffed tanked but i promise u it isnt 600.

Jonah wrote:Cant understand why u think its higher damage here then on live

Because I tested it on live and compared it to Uth. Quite large differences. You do PA cap damage all the time on Uth. You do not on live. Its just reduced by resistances and your stats dont even matter on Uth in the whole calculation.