Satz wrote:Then, please, answer: how many dex/qui buff does a pierce ranger need to have simmilar ws as a thrust-scout has without? considering simmilar spec?

Well you bring up a good point, which has been answered in the past. The bonus the ranger and hunter get over the scout is ws, because of there buffs, but what the scout gets is a shield to improve defense greatly and to allow a anytime 9sec stun, giving the scout a 9sec window to dmg a un-purged target. Only problem with that on new RA system was that purge is up more often, but on old ra system it isnt up that often, that is why recommended this change for OLD ra system.

The scout gains a long duration stun, and better defense of a value of 21% evade and 46% block with 42 shield spec. And a 39 thrust spec with a ws of 939, very simular to a assasins ws. While a hunter and ranger only has evade in there defenses of about 21-26% fully self buffed. Also duel wielding lowers evade chance, while 2h spear lowers parry, nether lowers shield blocking, that i know of. So vs a ranger the scout would have a 10% evade and 41% block = 51% base defenses, even higher then a assasin.

And if your claim is that shield slam can be purged, then you dont know much about effective tricks to get around that. One purge is less likely to be up on old ra system, and two, there is another shield stunning style that can easly trick alot of players to blow purge. Also they have to buy purge , while you can buy MoBlocking.

Wrong, DW also halves block.

updated first post, added some points that had been discussed and updated title to include it as a old ra change. As i believe would be the only way it could work. Classic with classic.

Nymeros wrote:Wrong, DW also halves block.

ow, i didnt see that back when i looked at those rules. Do you have a link, so i can see them all. Its in one of the patch notes i remember, back when they removed these rules, gives you an idea what was implemented. But anyway they still got MoBlocking to make up for that also, and the shield slam.

In the early days of uthgard, we haven´t any buffpots/charges here.
At that times, all classes with selfbuffs totally dominated solo-rvr.
Its much more balanced with buffpots/charges so i dont like the idea to remove them.

well i bring up the topic about removing these charged/pot buffs, now to be implemented with OF change. And this kinda change needs to be discussed now, so when and if OF RA's come, it may or may not be implemented with it. We are just talking about it, im not demanding it to be done right this second. I know such change will not happen for some time, as old ra wouldnt be coming for some time, if they decide to do it.

Any the server may have had no charge/buffbots in the past, but there has been many bug fixes not related to the buffs. Plus we have OLD frontier and this is a change suggested for old ra's. You cant compare todays uthgard to how it was long ago. If the staff sees some self buffing classes over powered, they can easly look into why. Is it because of the buffs, or because of some other bug, like wrong formula for something, that is benifiting them to much. Buffs is just one part of a class.

And id actualy would like to see old ra system with this change, i know my ranger will have issues with assasins when camo isnt up, but then again, when it is up and i got truesight , it will be intresting. On top of that with all the new/old ra's to see how it affects game play. I know there will be down sides for my class, but i also see many good sides too.

Alchemy and buff pot too are a part of the game, u can change it but not remove it...
A ranger specced melee is strong enought against an assassin, but u have to decide if u want to spec bow or melee...
With phisical defence high and ip, camo up, studded vs leather, u can own any assassin, and what i ve thought is that u want to compete with tanks, but that is against the point of the game :
stealthers>mage>tanks>stealthers

GRRRR! Made a who post pointing something out and hit post and the website times out and i lost it. So im just going to make this a short response, since alot of what i had before delt with formulas and game mechanics and i know alot of you, maybe confused by that.

So what i was pointing out was, that a ranger or any self buffing class should be able to take on enemy kinda enemy, almost equaly. But even without buffs and a ranger for example with his 50 PF buffs, the light tank will still have higher hp and higher ws and higher defense and so on. That is what makes him a light tank and pure melee. What doesnt make him one is the claim that he is invinsable in melee vs a class like a stealther, because i know even on a buffed up server, a assasin can take on almost any enemy with his PA/BS + poison debuff, because the buffs he and others can get is only a bonus, it doesnt reduce his effectiveness with his designed features, like it would for a ranger or hunter. To give you an idea of how much of a bonus, here is a celt ranger vs briton merc with no buffs/self buffs and how it is on uthgard.

Ranger
_______________________
50+11 Pierc
28+11 CD
12+11 Bow
6+11 stealth
50 PF

-buffs-
self dex/qui = 90
self str = 62
self AF = 80
DA = 9.4 dps

Pierc WS = 1217
HP = 1278
Swing Speed = 64.2% of Weapon speed
Evade = 25.7%

vs

Merc
____________________
50+11 Slash
34+11 DW
23+11 Parry
42+11 Shield

-buffs-
none

Slash WS = 1264
HP = 1579
Swing speed = 85% of Weapon speed
Evade = 10.07%
Parry = 32.8%
Block = 42.3%

As you can see the merc still has more WS, about 4% more, and 23% more health, compared to a buffed ranger. The ranger gains 80 extra AF, while the merc gains chain which has more AF and ABS. The ranger gains 9.4 more dmg per sec with his DA. The ranger gains dex/qui which lowers his Attack speed by 18% over the merc, by design. While the merc gains almost 33% parry and 42% blocking, while the ranger has 15% more evade. So as you can see there is trade offs, but when it comes to melee proformance the merc is still on top, unbuffed. And remember 50 PF isnt ideal with 50 piercing spec, but gives this test an idea of a maxed out melee ranger as of WS and buffs. In this test he has no bow and no stealth and less dual hit chance comared to the merc. Now for how it is on uthgard with a 1 min charge/pot buff time.

Ranger
_______________________
Same Spec

-buffs-
Same Self buffs

* Str/Con Charge = 56
* Haste Charge = 17%
* Con Pot = 20
*Dex Pot = 20

Pierc WS = 1332 (+115 WS = 9.4%)
HP = 1552 (+274 HP = 21.4%)
Swing speed = 51.8% of weapon speed (+10.6% AS = 28.2%)
Evade = 26.2% (+0.5% = 2%)

vs

Merc
_____________________
Same spec

-buffs-
*str/con charge = 56
*dex/qui charge = 63
*str pot = 20
*con pot = 20

Slash WS = 1546 (+282 WS = 22.3%)
HP = 1913 (+334 HP = 21.5%)
Swing speed = 72.4% of weapon speed (+12.6% AS = 84%)
Evade = 13.23% (+3.16% = 31.4%)
Parry = 39.1% (+6.3% = 19.2%)
Block = 48.6% (+6.3% = 14.9%)

So now you can see the effects of charged buffs have on classes on uthgard, the (+# = #%) is what that class gains for a charged/pot buff above origenal design of that class. And as you can see the Merc gains more in all areas, even haste. Now a ranger will swing faster, but the merc is gaining more, just from the dex/qui charge, he still could get a haste buff/charge, just before a fight.

Also as you can see , instead having the merc 4% stronger in melee WS/dmg, he is now 16% greater, and the merc still has more HP, but since the ranger doesnt gain a con self buff, the bonus between the two is equal. But the merc now gains more defenses above his origenal design, by more then 15% min in each one. And i mean 15% as compared to without buffs. This gives the merc even better defenses vs someone who self buffs, while the ranger only gains .5%, since he was designed with dex/qui, he can only access 20 more dex. So now the merc has much greater melee dmg, but he also gains more defenses, while origenaly designed he gained a small edge in melee dmg, but designed to last longer with better defenses and styles and a shield slam. Also the ablity to raise his parry/block by way of RA.

Currently a light tank and tanks are higher melee dmg, and higher defense then others, while origenaly designed to be a little better in melee and good defenses to stand a fight in melee. While a ranger can what, fire a bow. Well then i have to drop PF down, and or melee, which lowers my stats, and the bow shots will get blocked quiet often , facing a shield. So you get 1 to 2 shots, then have to melee, and currently on uthgard it is almost impossible without luck or high RR facing a lower RR. Best i can do is kite these targets, which take a long time, and isnt very effective. Now a ranger for example can get PD, but with Old RA system, we will not get that, and stealthing to kite with old ra's will be less effective because of no speed bonus. Also less likely to have purge up. That is why i recommend this change with old ra's only.

The game was origenaly designed so any class, with a few excepions of purge healing classes could solo any other class, some equal, other a little harder, but not as hard as it is on uthgard for some. Just look at the most pop classes out there at 50. Charged/Pot buffs are balanced for non self buffing classes, but it isnt for self buffing classes. A Self buff is a feature of a class and when you give it to someone who wasnt designed needing it, it makes the self buffers buff, less effective vs that target who is now buffed.

But i dont expect this to change some of these peoples mind, most may not be familur with formulas and game mechanics , so they look at the game at face value and compare it to current/shard servers. We want a classic game play on uthgard, and it all depends how classic we want it, some consider SI, TOA, CATA and so on as classic, it all depends what they liked. Diff classes gained more or less from each release. Charges and alchemy came into play about the time of there first mistake of SI, which fallowed with ToA about a year later. I wonder if they planned the release of pots and charges as a way to balance the game, with BUFFBOTTTED players. THINK ABOUT IT. on top of that, this makes players spend time grinding alchemy, and raiding, keeping them around to pay mythics bills.

( So now add the tipical respones, without considering anything i just said ) I will not be responding to old responses, that have nothing new to say. Ive alrdy answered each of those, over and over and they still ignore what i say, so im going to just ignore them, unless they got something new to add, that isnt flaming or offtopic. I believe the staff gets what im talking about and that is all im aiming for. Its the rest of the community that needs to convince them im wrong, with facts and so on that make sense, then just saying, tanks/light tanks = melee gods lol.

Eclipsed wrote:The game was origenaly designed so any class, with a few excepions of purge healing classes could solo any other class.

you never actually played classic daoc in the first years, did you^^

the game was designed and balanced for "massive fights, realm against realm at an epic scale."
that actually was the tagline of daoc^^

even assasin clasess where definded as "support your forces by climbing into the enemy keeps. taking out the defenders support classes"


drop it already^^

http://www.pointblank-rangers.com/videos/video.php

To those who claim that a stealther/hybrid isnt suppose to solo some classes. As you can see, it is possible with buffbots, toa, and all that crap, but you claim that without all those features and with buff pots/charges a ranger shouldnt be able to melee a tank or light tank. Which means a melee ranger can only solo other stealthers.

Sorry but your claims are wrong wrong wrong...... i love how you all like to use that word , wrong . No facts, no agrument agenst my claims, just the word wrong is all you say lol.

Alchemy and Charges is a counter to buffbots on live, and it wasnt enough, so they made champion ablities also that can buff you too. We do not have buffbots , so we shouldnt have all these buffs going around. Over the years , mythic had balanced the game around expansions, and around the game play with full buffed char with buffbots. So if we go to old RAS and an older patch, it will be even less balanced tword the years of buffbotting from live.

and for all who want to claim that these hybrids/stealthers with self buffs, dont reflect mythics design to compete with non buffing classes like tanks and light tanks, read this and EAT IT.

http://www.camelotherald.com/news/news_ ... toryid=389
- Added a self strength/constitution buff to the Champion Valor spec track to make them more competitive with tank classes that have higher natural constitutions:

DAM YOU MYTHIC, making them over powered..... give me a break kids. Mythic found that the champion was under proforming vs tanks and other classes , so they fixed it by adding a self buff, kinda like how other classes get self buffs to balance there class.

O and about the Old RA crying discussion. Here you go
http://www.uthgard-server.net/modules.p ... ic&t=13629

Plz stay on topic, if you can.

same goes for the friars dex/qui buff was added at the same time.

I pretty much do understand your requested change to solve a potential balancing issue, but I highly recommend to think about the great impact such a change would have. Alchemy and charges have not been implemented to only counter buffbots. They are a gameplay feature of which one is enrooted within the crafting system.

A most likely complete devaluation of alchemists (leaving MHB's and procs as only interesting goods) and a drastical devaluation of a few items offering stat-bonus charges.


Your request would mean to swing the nerfbat and let alone rot the pieces of previous features - features some players have invested a very long time for to achieve and I for myself always hated such "ultima ratio" solutions. So, what to do in order to address the mentioned balancing issue without wrecking havoc.


Transmutation of charges and addressed alchemy goods into items of a lesser impact to RvR. Customization, yes ... but only PvE. If it is good for the players then it is most likely good for the server!

A transmutation would be a reasonable solution as long as the offered transmutations were interesting enough. Actually DAoC offers a lot of such boni and abilities (ToA boni / ML abilities), but these are most likely out of discussion as these offer a much higher imbalancing ... but what if these abilities were only affecting PvE?

- Transmutation: Item charge -> Summon friend (teleport player to you)
- Transmutation: Item charge -> Group Teleportation to Bindstone
- Transportation: Alchemy charge -> Summon timed "mobile" bindstone
- Transmutation: Alchemy potion -> Potion Increase natural healing
- Transmutation: Alchemy potion -> Potion Increase movement (1min speed4)
- Transmutation: Alchemy Potion -> Potion XYZ

There are a lot more possibilities which in the case that they were PvE only would not influence rvr-balancing would fill the gap if charges and alchemy potions/charges were removed. Of course especially the suggested transmutations for item charges would need a sort of limitation ... I do love money sinks . However, such a change would be a matter of discussion for the staff.


With regards,
Sethor

Sethor wrote:
A most likely complete devaluation of alchemists (leaving MHB's and procs as only interesting goods) and a drastical devaluation of a few items offering stat-bonus charges.

Alchs still have lots of money sinks (heal potions, mana pots, end pots, hot pots, pom pots, end regen pots) and could have even more if alchs could recharge items


and Gerbald, you have still not understood the point about the thread

please reread the 14 pages of text and get the point right

(maybe time to do my clearing out in this topic)

Sethor, the discussion here is about removing buffpotions and -charges, not healing potions or other instant potions. I think you misunderstood them. It's only a small part of the alchemists repertoire.

One concern about the thread was about the value of alchemy and charged items. But there is alot of use in alchemy still, like the heal pots, end pots, and power pots. Plus thoses procs, charges and reactives are still useful. Stat buffs are just a small part of it.