Toblerone wrote:Here's a suggestion about volley: remove it completely until someone finds solid proof about how it worked on live because it sure as hell didn't work the way it does on uthgard.

Please explain how it worked on live then, since your sure it isnt how it worked. So many claim " This isnt how it worked on live " But yet dont say why exactly. Just a simple reply saying its incurrect, but no details on why.

So please explain why in detail, or else you really dont have the right to demand changes.

This isnt even a bug report section, and you know why, because to post this in there, youd have to actualy have proof and yet none has been provided.

well there are loads of things which aren´t checked or could be checked properly atm and those things won´t be implemented till they are properly checked and the staff knows how they are supposed to work. E.G. Ani (partly), Necro (complete) BD ( Pets).

Why should volley be an exception?

And please don´t try to convince people it works as it should...

Eclipsed wrote:Please explain how it worked on live then, since your sure it isnt how it worked. So many claim " This isnt how it worked on live " But yet dont say why exactly.

Because nobody used it on live which is probably, just probably, an indicator that it was nowhere nearly as powerful as it is here and I have my doubts that somehow the uthgard community discovered something new that eluded tens of thousands of live players for years.

Eclipsed wrote:

Toblerone wrote:Here's a suggestion about volley: remove it completely until someone finds solid proof about how it worked on live because it sure as hell didn't work the way it does on uthgard.

Please explain how it worked on live then, since your sure it isnt how it worked. So many claim " This isnt how it worked on live " But yet dont say why exactly. Just a simple reply saying its incurrect, but no details on why.

So please explain why in detail, or else you really dont have the right to demand changes.

This isnt even a bug report section, and you know why, because to post this in there, youd have to actualy have proof and yet none has been provided.

I hope its detailed enough.

In the links Zippity gave us i have found something interesting.
This is the link http://members.multimania.co.uk/talsyra ... urce1.html

"-Manual Targeting: This is done by holding F5 or whatever key ground target is set to. Place the target marker in the middle of a mass of person to get maximum damage output. If placed under a single person you may not even hit that person in 5 shots. Though you may never hit the same person twice, you will receive a few RP’s when that person brought down. The counter to this is mobility. If the enemy is always on the move then the chances of hitting them drops without some practice in estimation. When a volley is made ready, you may reposition the target marker and fire on a new area, so long as you do not move from you location. You may pivot but you may not make a step or you volley will be canceled and you must wait until you may fire again. You may fire 1 shot reposition fire a second and so on until all 5 arrows have been expended. With ample practice a moving group may be engaged consistently. The downside to using manual targeting is the limited range you may place the marker at. For targets beyond this range you must use /groundset"

And i have extracted this :
If placed under a single person you may not even hit that person in 5 shots. Though you may never hit the same person twice, you will receive a few RP’s when that person brought down.


On uthgard if you volley VS 1 person that person is hit by each arrow shot ( lets say 5 hits using volley 3) like in that 350 radius where i am standing, arrows drop on each inch from those 350 , but its not like that , arrows should fall around me also if i am alone in 350 radius and maybe not a single arrow will hit me or maybe just 1 arrow.....CONTINUES and it says after that u may never hit the same person twice ( thats means its almost imposible to hit 2 times 1 player that stands in 350 radius) but u will get rps when he dies.

This is our problem my friends, here if i am on a 350 radius all those 6 shots hit me and every single player that would stand in that radius, when it actually should be a miracle if i m hit 2 times .

Imagine this scenario VS a group of ppl that stay in a 350 radius , on uthgard every player is hit 6 times by those arrows ( we count miss block etc) .
On live if you would shot volley VS a grp of ppl that are scathered in 350 radius , at 1 shot you would have hited randomly maybe 2 ppl, at 2nd shot maybe none, at 3rd shot maybe 1 , at 4th shot maybe other 3 ,at 5th shot maybe 1 that wasnt hit until now , at 6th shot maybe u d hit 1 thats was not hit and another that was already hited because he moved in that area.

Yeah, this sounds like the volley we had on Live, and it makes no sense to slam a player and volley him when u make 6 rounds and u hit him ONCE for normal dmg,or maybe u dont hit him at all ,but never 2 times( wich would make sense to use Crit shot, and 1 more normal shot for a scout) .

A good question for me is :
- on that 350 radius how much place a player occupies ? how many places there r in 350 radius that can individually be calculated? because if on live you could volley VS a single person and almost never hit it 2 times means that we got something like puting 10 arrows in 100 baskets but each time the baskets should be diferent in such way that an arrow never enters same basket in 6 rounds. On uthgard you put 100 arrows in each of those 100 baskets 6 times.

Eclipsed; the information used to implement volley here says at the top it is wrong for NF. The mythic description says nothing which could be interpreted as the current implementation. Why should something be implemented when we know it's not right?

Yes i know about zip's info on volley, only problem is there is no presented info on actualy tests, just opinons on how it works. Like saying firing at a single target may not even hit once. How many times did he test that to make that judgement. And claiming you cant hit the same target twice isnt correct as i presented multi source about volley hitting the same target more then once, when that issue was brought up , because of one of you crying about it in the past. So not all the info he is giving is 100% clear and that is what they have to watch out for when trying to implement it. Plus i though zip was the one that helped the implement the current volley. I know zippity, and i know he loves the current volley lol, and last i heard was he was ticked off at the staff about not implementing many of the archery bugs yet.

All all these suggestion on finding away to drop an arrow in the GT, that is simply called a miss rate, and what most of you are saying you want some kinda miss rate of like 75%, making 6 arrow volley only hit once and vs a grp, maybe a few arrows will hit. Making it useless in solo, small grp and big grps. Now why would mythic implement such a skill if it has no use, oviously we are missing some importent feature of volley or mis understanding how it should work. If you think you know how to implement it, then make the suggestion. Here fill this out with what you think it should work like.

What should the miss rate of each arrow be ?
What kinda prep time should there be to start volley ?
How much time in between each additional shot ?
What kinda damage should each hit do when it hits ?
If there is more enemys in a GT, how does that effect the miss rate (details) ?
How well should volley work vs a single player, small grp and a large grp ( detailed )?
And what ever else info you want to give.

So what kinda volley would you preferr then, and if you want it to be live like, look at zip's notes and any other source and fill in my questions then, since you claim its easy. Keep in mind, if you make it useless, you are not making a fair implementation and wasting your time with implementing something has no uses.

Id just love to see what you kids like to make it into, the worse you make it the more you most hate being volleyed LOL.

If i was to have volley changed, to reflect its real purpose, would be to make it more useful vs small and large grps and not so much vs single enemys. So here is my suggestions to achieve this.

What should the miss rate of each arrow be ?
- Each arrow release during volley should have a miss rate of like 50% or so, but each fire should have a chance to hit each enemy in the GT. Example 1 enemy in GT = 1 arrow released into the air and 50% chance to hit that player, 3 enemys in GT = 3 arrows released into the air and each arrow has a chance to hit there target 50% or low , depending on testing. 8 in GT = 8 arrows released into the air.

What kinda prep time should there be to start volley ?
- Standered normal shot delay time to start volley (3 - 4sec)

How much time in between each additional shot ?
- the normal 1-2 sec delay

What kinda damage should each hit do when it hits ?
- Normal Shot dmg

If there is more enemys in a GT, how does that effect the miss rate (details) ?
- If there is more in the GT, the miss rate is still the same, but additional arrows are released into the air to make firing at grps more rewarding, and effective vs healers.

How well should volley work vs a single player, small grp and a large grp ( detailed )?
- vs a single enemy it will not be that effective with such a high miss rate and only one arrow being fired at a time, vs a small grp it is more effective because there is more in the GT and releases more arrows per fire round , making up for the miss rate. vs a big grp there is even more arrows released into the GT depending on number of enemys in the GT, making volley a door during a siege more effective vs spreadhealing classes.

Examples.

Volley 1 ( 3 arrow fire turns )

If there is 5 enemys in the GT radius, and the archer readys volley and take the first fire turn, he releases multi arrows at one time into the air at all 5 enemys, but with a higher miss rate of like 50%, most likely only 2 or 3 will get hit. Then 1sec later can fire again at all who is still in the GT, meaning 2-3 will get hit again, and again. The balance with this is, as soon as they scater, you can not keep all targets in the GT, and if that 5 enemys scatter and your last volley fire round is shot with only 2 enemys in the radius, youl fire 2 arrows and most likely only 1 will get hit if not 0. This makes firing at a grp more rewarding and more useful vs a full grp. Which the current volley is not good vs small grps or big grps, only in solo. This will allow volley to not be useful vs sinlge or vs two enemys, but makes it useful vs more enemys you can keep in the GT and for Grp battles. But that is only possible with firing multi arrows at one time, depending on the number of enemys in the GT. Like 1 enemy = 1 arrow into the air, 2 = 2 arrows into the air, 3 = 3 arrows into the air and so on. And each arrow that goes up, only has a 50% or what ever that would be balanced to hit that target, and can not multi hit the same person twice in one fire turn.

That is the only way i could see volley fixed to not be used in solo situations, but still useful vs grps. Even the current volley being strong vs solo, is weak vs any grp with a healer, since spread heals counter that easly. So mass dmg vs a grp is the only way to make spread heals not as effective.

I sugest you to go and make some rps.

What should the miss rate of each arrow be ?
What kinda prep time should there be to start volley ?
How much time in between each additional shot ?
What kinda damage should each hit do when it hits ?
If there is more enemys in a GT, how does that effect the miss rate (details) ?
How well should volley work vs a single player, small grp and a large grp ( detailed )?
And what ever else info you want to give.

If you dont like volley, then contribute what live is by filling this out, based on the proof you have or found and give links to them, it will oviously help the staff. I will also challenge your proof and comments , so expect it.

Eclipsed wrote:

What should the miss rate of each arrow be ?
What kinda prep time should there be to start volley ?
How much time in between each additional shot ?
What kinda damage should each hit do when it hits ?
If there is more enemys in a GT, how does that effect the miss rate (details) ?
How well should volley work vs a single player, small grp and a large grp ( detailed )?
And what ever else info you want to give.

If you dont like volley, then contribute what live is by filling this out, based on the proof you have or found and give links to them, it will oviously help the staff. I will also challenge your proof and comments , so expect it.

Heh ..i found the info about how volley should work in zippity's files where no1 had a look and explained it just up abit, and it matched with what i already knew .

Eclipsed wrote:What should the miss rate of each arrow be ?

Guessing around 20%-25% hitrate against 1 target

What kinda prep time should there be to start volley ?

Used to be drawtime like a normal shot i think?

How much time in between each additional shot ?

Good as it is now, think it's the same as the old live one

What kinda damage should each hit do when it hits ?

Normal bow hit

If there is more enemys in a GT, how does that effect the miss rate (details) ?

Hard to know exact numbers since there's no documented tests..

You will hit alot more, I don't know the formula for it but maybe 25% per target with diminishing returns, so ~25%, ~43%, 54% etc? The admins can probably think up some nice formula.

And what ever else info you want to give.

This is a link that seems pretty accurate on how it used to work (no formulas but I think the general idea is correct.)

Link

Thanks Umilard. That's the first useful post in a while.

So the AoE attack hits randomly within a radius around the GT?

The only actualy info , that isnt based on opinon is the small chat log shown, since the test of his opinons where on so called tests, that where not described on how many times he did them and vs grey con mobs.

Also the chat log shows there was at a min of 4 grey mobs in the GT radius, if he didnt move the GT. 4 of 5 arrows hit and each one that hit kills the grey so each kill reduced the number of mobs in the radius. Being first hit and kill was with a min of 4 targets, second hit and kill was with a min of 3 targets, third hit and kill was vs 2 targets , the forth was possbily vs 1 target and missed , while the last was possibly vs 1 and hit. Now is the volley counting the dead mobs in the radius or not, was there more mobs and so on. And Umilard's suggestion on how volley should work, is based mostly on opinon from a person that just bought volley for the first time, back when it was an RA still and didnt do much testing. This makes volley terrible vs single, small grps and large groups. Even the current volley isnt good vs grps only solos on uthgard. We know volley isnt totaly correct on uthgard, but if they are going to waste there time redoing it, they better find away to make it useful or it will not be used and re-made for nothing. Maybe if bow dmg was actualy stronger, a rare volley hit would actualy mean something. A full buffed archer on live, doing 400-500 dmg, vs an enemy without a buffbot, would be like hitting someone on uthgard for like 400-500 dmg, which that would be why volley would work out, but that isnt the case, are shots will max out at like 350ish with 50 bow spec and as much dex you can get your hands on.

Whats so useful? He wants to absolutely nerf the hell out of one of your abilities just like the rest. Why should volley have any higher miss rate than any other attack in this game? Why should it have increasing miss rates? ****** on your suggestion of increasing miss rates per additional arrow or at all. That is flat out ridiculous. How about we add a 25% and increasing miss rate to all spells cast and all melee attacks and all heals cast?

How about any action anyone does in this game gets a 25% and increasing miss rate to it? If its good enough for the archer then its good enough for all the rest of you.
The link the guy posted is just some random kid posting about volley. Do any of those mobs even have 462 hit points? Hell no! This guy in the post does not even understand Volley as he clearly states he has no experience with it.
None of you kids got any rebuttal for the current volley. There are many counters to volley currently, you dont need more help and pampering. Yes we know its not exact to live but here it actually has a use. All of you have said how useless it was on live then whats wrong with it actually working here? Oh yea thats right... cause you can die from it.

All you complainers ultimately want to do is make it so that you no longer have to fear being hurt or killed from it. Thats what this whole thing boils down to and not a single one of you complaining can deny that.

Seyha if you think its such a great idea then you can have this (Umilard's suggestion) while the rest of us continue on and you let us know how that works out for you with your new, outrageously increased miss rates. I did not spec my bow to full to get the amazing new skill which gives me a 25% miss chance that increases with each arrow fired.

Eclipsed wrote:The only actualy info , that isnt based on opinon is the small chat log shown, since the test of his opinons where on so called tests, that where not described on how many times he did them and vs grey con mobs.

Also the chat log shows there was at a min of 4 grey mobs in the GT radius, if he didnt move the GT. 4 of 5 arrows hit and each one that hit kills the grey so each kill reduced the number of mobs in the radius. Being first hit and kill was with a min of 4 targets, second hit and kill was with a min of 3 targets, third hit and kill was vs 2 targets , the forth was possbily vs 1 target and missed , while the last was possibly vs 1 and hit. Now is the volley counting the dead mobs in the radius or not, was there more mobs and so on. And Umilard's suggestion on how volley should work, is based mostly on opinon from a person that just bought volley for the first time, back when it was an RA still and didnt do much testing. This makes volley terrible vs single, small grps and large groups. Even the current volley isnt good vs grps only solos on uthgard. We know volley isnt totaly correct on uthgard, but if they are going to waste there time redoing it, they better find away to make it useful or it will not be used and re-made for nothing. Maybe if bow dmg was actualy stronger, a rare volley hit would actualy mean something. A full buffed archer on live, doing 400-500 dmg, vs an enemy without a buffbot, would be like hitting someone on uthgard for like 400-500 dmg, which that would be why volley would work out, but that isnt the case, are shots will max out at like 350ish with 50 bow spec and as much dex you can get your hands on.

Accually, I base my opinion from playing daoc from EU beta up to the launch of new frontiers. The link is just something that somewhat support my claims on how volley worked. Volley on live was "terrible" in open RvR but was awesome at keepdefenses. Put out a groundtarget, get a friend to GTassist and it hurt like hell.

I don't think fixing a broken ability is a "waste of time", I think it's common sense.

Silverleaf wrote:Whats so useful? He wants to absolutely nerf the hell out of one of your abilities just like the rest. Why should volley have any higher miss rate than any other attack in this game? Why should it have increasing miss rates? [I am a little bunny and like flowers] on your suggestion of increasing miss rates per additional arrow or at all. That is flat out ridiculous. How about we add a 25% and increasing miss rate to all spells cast and all melee attacks and all heals cast?

How about any action anyone does in this game gets a 25% and increasing miss rate to it? If its good enough for the archer then its good enough for all the rest of you.
The link the guy posted is just some random kid posting about volley. Do any of those mobs even have 462 hit points? Hell no! This guy in the post does not even understand Volley as he clearly states he has no experience with it.
None of you kids got any rebuttal for the current volley. There are many counters to volley currently, you dont need more help and pampering. Yes we know its not exact to live but here it actually has a use. All of you have said how useless it was on live then whats wrong with it actually working here? Oh yea thats right... cause you can die from it.

All you complainers ultimately want to do is make it so that you no longer have to fear being hurt or killed from it. Thats what this whole thing boils down to and not a single one of you complaining can deny that.

Seyha if you think its such a great idea then you can have this (Umilard's suggestion) while the rest of us continue on and you let us know how that works out for you with your new, outrageously increased miss rates. I did not spec my bow to full to get the amazing new skill which gives me a 25% miss chance that increases with each arrow fired.

I'm not "scared" to get killed by volley and I don't think I quality as a kid anymore (30 years old). I have a problem with volley becouse it is nowhere near livelike. Volley was a tool used for keepdefence, not as a super replacement for a critshot.

Also, I think you misunderstood the missrate. I was talking about hitrate so it increase the more targets are in the GT. with a crowded spot (ie a keepdoor with tincans hitting it) most if not all of the arrows used to hit a target. But you are correct that it would suck badly against a solo target, just as mythic intended it.