patouch wrote:add that to the issue tracker!

However there's an important point not to forget: back in live circa 2002-2003, the variety of gear found on average players was really different from what we see nowadays, where "templates' are almost a prerequisite to step out of a pk, and a general knowledge of the game mechanics much more advanced than what it used to be for the common population.

I beg to differ. As Kha mentioned, damage variance and amounts are low even against mobs, this is not a gear/gear ignorance issue.

We are playing 1.65 right now, and at that period of the game SI had been implemented as well as Alchemy and Spellcrafting before that. Templating was much more common even before SI. And remember that SI brought with it the ROG items, which were universally panned because they were unique and therefore irreplaceable in a template.

Templates are not the reason archery is weak. If that were the case then damage across the board would be low. But when I shoot a mincer with a 99% 5.5speed bow for 210damage and he responds in kind with a dd instant for 180 against max resist plus a little AoM something is way out of balance.

RvR as a ranger, let me summarize.

You need s/c buff up and haste buff up (ofc your own buffs aswell)
Without camo, you are dead.
Without IP you are dead
Without purge, you are dead
Without the jump you are dead
With the jump, you get 50% of not dieing.

Your bow dmg? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Its the biggest joke of the game, only good thing is DOT proc when 1v1
(Which shouldnt proc, since 1.65 live didnt have craftable procs on bows)

In groups, its ok. just let ns bait and you run arround.
Keep defense is okaj ish..

Long story short,

roll other class. it aint worth the hassle.

Tau wrote:Your bow dmg? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Its the biggest joke of the game, only good thing is DOT proc when 1v1
(Which shouldnt proc, since 1.65 live didnt have craftable procs on bows)

While I agree 100% that bow damage is lower than it should be right now I cant take your post seriously since the DOT proc you hailed as being the one good thing has a cast range under 400 units. It will simply never ever proc under normal archery shot conditions.

So you are not using it in 1v1 with any regular success on a bow, which means you are making things up in order to be dramatic for no good reason (unless you happen to miracle an undetected shot from within melee range and it happens to fire).

I.E. you are talking out of your ass.

DaytonChambers wrote:

Tau wrote:Your bow dmg? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Its the biggest joke of the game, only good thing is DOT proc when 1v1
(Which shouldnt proc, since 1.65 live didnt have craftable procs on bows)

While I agree 100% that bow damage is lower than it should be right now I cant take your post seriously since the DOT proc you hailed as being the one good thing has a cast range under 400 units. It will simply never ever proc under normal archery shot conditions.

So you are not using it in 1v1 with any regular success on a bow, which means you are making things up in order to be dramatic for no good reason (unless you happen to miracle an undetected shot from within melee range and it happens to fire).

I.E. you are talking out of your ass.

a. lovely avatar
b. you're completely right. it doesnt proc above 400 units, which means u have to swap bows at the last shot.. (its a pain)
c. I am not making things up, that said; what you're saying is only making it worse/dramatic.
d. Miracle shots from mellee range happen allot when you bow and staelth and people run near and the 1v1 starts.

Tau wrote:a. lovely avatar
b. you're completely right. it doesnt proc above 400 units, which means u have to swap bows at the last shot.. (its a pain)
c. I am not making things up, that said; what you're saying is only making it worse/dramatic.
d. Miracle shots from mellee range happen allot when you bow and staelth and people run near and the 1v1 starts.

a. Yes my avatar is indeed lovely, "Murica" You know, the people who created DAOC

b. Swapping bows in order to juggle procs during a pull or a fight opener just sounds recklessly cumbersome for very little benefit. You get a single shot while the dot proc is in range, and that's melee range where your shot can get interrupted. As I said before, it would take a miracle to land it as a range opener in a 1v1 so it's NOT a reliable asset to the class. You're FAR better off using a haste proc on your bow as you have several chances for it to fire when you initiate the fight, it aids both ranged and melee attack speed, and it has no range restriction since it's a buff on the caster and not the target.

C. You claimed that the dot proc is good on a bow, when it's anything but. So yes, you are making things up/spreading bad info.

D. Miracle shots do not happen often. That's why they're miracles when they do. Now if you're in melee range adding on someone else's fight you may get a shot off or two at the most, but if I were to see you add on me with a bow I'm gonna swing at you to interrupt your leech ass. Then you're dot proc on that bow is once again useless.

DaytonChambers wrote:b. Swapping bows in order to juggle procs during a pull or a fight opener just sounds recklessly cumbersome for very little benefit. You get a single shot while the dot proc is in range, and that's melee range where your shot can get interrupted. As I said before, it would take a miracle to land it as a range opener in a 1v1 so it's NOT a reliable asset to the class. You're FAR better off using a haste proc on your bow as you have several chances for it to fire when you initiate the fight, it aids both ranged and melee attack speed, and it has no range restriction since it's a buff on the caster and not the target.

C. You claimed that the dot proc is good on a bow, when it's anything but. So yes, you are making things up/spreading bad info.

D. Miracle shots do not happen often. That's why they're miracles when they do. Now if you're in melee range adding on someone else's fight you may get a shot off or two at the most, but if I were to see you add on me with a bow I'm gonna swing at you to interrupt your leech ass. Then you're dot proc on that bow is once again useless.

Why would i pust haste on bow? I allready have haste pot.

Also when you know SB/infil is near you and can see you from jordheim, it's wise to prepare a shot, and release with [nearest target] and [face] right befor they backstabd /pa.

And like i said, if i /bow, people gonna try and find you, and they might get very close just before uncovering.
Happens allot actually. Even without bow, they might have run over me and know my loc.

Just because you think it's not a good proc, doesn't mean it isn't.. maybe your playstyle doesnt fit the tool?
Your opinion is your opinion, but don't say your opinion is the only truth there is..

And just because you're from 'Muricah' and 'fake news' is somehow trending in your country, doens't mean everything you read and doesn't align with your vision is fake news... Dare I say that you live in a country where newschannels are owned by the same people running your political party's and that you actually try understand different views than yours? nahh i won't say it

Tau wrote:And just because you're from 'Muricah' and 'fake news' is somehow trending in your country, doens't mean everything you read and doesn't align with your vision is fake news... Dare I say that you live in a country where newschannels are owned by the same people running your political party's and that you actually try understand different views than yours? nahh i won't say it

You keep defending your weapon proc selection and playstyle despite originally saying that the class is trash and you cant win fights. You want me to understand a viewpoint different than my own? Sure I understand the style of play you appear to be going for.

I can still disagree with it though. Critical thinking FTW.

I also understand that you yourself said that you cant win fights unless all your toys are up. Perhaps your method of play is a factor in that?

Stop defending a playstyle that you yourself said isn't very competitive. It makes you look foolish.

DaytonChambers wrote:You keep defending your weapon proc selection and playstyle despite originally saying that the class is trash and you cant win fights. You want me to understand a viewpoint different than my own? Sure I understand the style of play you appear to be going for.

I can still disagree with it though. Critical thinking FTW.

I also understand that you yourself said that you cant win fights unless all your toys are up. Perhaps your method of play is a factor in that?

Stop defending a playstyle that you yourself said isn't very competitive. It makes you look foolish.

Fck me, how old are you? I don't want you to understand anything at all, I couldn't care less if you understood what I was saying. I merely responded on your statement that I was spreading false info. Which you could not know, since you're not playing my toon.

You may disagree with my 'playstyle' , that's fine. I am sure there are better rangers outthere, maybe even you. Doesn't change the fact that was I said was still true.

Am surprised ... Not that many reaction to my 2002/2003 posts (Page 1, proof of the problem existing)
Did rangers already gave up ? Or they are too busy bashing eachother playstyle using forum post ?

I think most gave up. I see very few rangers in Hib anymore

Kha wrote:Am surprised ... Not that many reaction to my 2002/2003 posts (Page 1, proof of the problem existing)
Did rangers already gave up ? Or they are too busy bashing eachother playstyle using forum post ?

I have not given up and I still try to keep the fire burning with random posts regarding low ranger bow damage.

I am currently 36+13 bow spec. I rarely if ever hit above 200 on a equal level opponent. Usual damage after resists is 175 or so...even on casters and leather wearers. (99qu bow 5.5 speed, best arrows, yellow PF dex/quick, red dmg add)

I often see hits of less than 100 (see my post on the main page).

The trouble is Dev is thoroughly convinced archery is working fine. They stated they did a lot of testing on live using Crossbow (I'm guessing an armsman that can spec in crossbow) to compare and the results were similar betweem crossbow live vs bow here. I personally am not confident in this comparison. What effect does dex/str/quickness play in the equation? Is crossbow really supposed to be the same mechanic? I always thought archery had a built in growth rate bonus that made it superior to crossbow as crossbow was more an after thought for Armsman (anyone who says there were armsmen who specced in crossbow for anything more than a novelty is full of it) as opposed to archery being the main dps for um... archers.

They have put the burden of proof on the community to say this is incorrect. This pretty much puts us at an impasse. There is just not enough historical evidence to prove our point. Posts with dmg info posted like above are nice but dev will just disregard them as not having enough information or being reliable. I've even asked the simple question if they are using the generally accepted formula for archery here...and they will not say if they are or aren't:

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/archery_bow_mechanics.html

Base Damage at 100% variance mark =

EDPS * (your WS/target AF) * (1-absorb) * slow weap bonus * SPD * 2h weapon bonus * Arrow Bonus

EDPS = effective dps of the weapon

For base damage this is (clamped factor and weapon condition/quality)

For cap damage this is (clamped factor only)

Condition and quality of the weapon will affect effective damage in the following way :

Effective dam = Clamped Damage * Quality(%) * Condition(%)

The clamped damage is your maximimum allowed damage at your current lvl:

Clamped Damage = 1.2 + LVL * 0.3

2h weapon bonus = 1.1 + (0.005 x spec)

SLow Weapon bonus = 1 + ( (spd - 2) x 0.03)

SPD = listed weapon speed.

Damage Cap = EDPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD - 2) * .03) * (1.1 + (0.005 x spec) )

2h weapon bonus (note: when the weapon is a two hand weapon, the cap uses the 2h weapon bonus formula also.


As you can see there are many places where the formula could be implemented incorrectly:

AF (this should be by specific piece of armor, not total AF)
Absorb values for armor (again for a specific piece that is hit by the arrow..for casted absorb buffs it should be value/6 since arrows hit one piece of armor),
2h weapon bonus,
slow weapon bonus
weapon SPD (should be unaffected by quickness)

Torgo wrote:
The trouble is Dev is thoroughly convinced archery is working fine. They stated they did a lot of testing on live using Crossbow (I'm guessing an armsman that can spec in crossbow) to compare and the results were similar betweem crossbow live vs bow here. I personally am not confident in this comparison. What effect does dex/str/quickness play in the equation? Is crossbow really supposed to be the same mechanic? I always thought archery had a built in growth rate bonus that made it superior to crossbow as crossbow was more an after thought for Armsman (anyone who says there were armsmen who specced in crossbow for anything more than a novelty is full of it) as opposed to archery being the main dps for um... archers.

Crossbow is exactly the same as short bows. It's not on the same table as Recurve bow or Longbow. Damage wise it should be your skill (higher should raise your cap) and dex. Quickness should make you draw/shoot faster without effecting dps.

We all know this. As a Ranger you are basically shooting with a short bow. Thats why the damage is so low.

I don't agree with the "as a ranger you're shooting with a short bow" comment.

Yesterday in RVR on L50 RR3L3 luri ranger. Capped melee resists 35+13 bow spec.
I was hit by a scout regular shot for 345ish 3 times.

Today me shooting at L50 RR3 cleric using correct arrow type, yellow PF dex/qui buff and base dex pot my crit shot hit for 213.

I understand there is an absorb difference between RF and chain however there is no way a normal shot should be 150% of a crit shot.

Something in the AF calculation seems to be way off.

Are you sure you the crit shot landed and it didnt switch to a regular shot? But yeah, albs get a spec af too.

My 2 cents regarding archer damage in general.

Since my hunter is just lvl 27 at the moment i can just verify my findings up to this level. From what i can see they are using pretty much the same damage formula for bow damage as for melee calculations. Up to this moment on all melee i have done on uthgard i could verify that the formula on http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_Damage pretty much nails the results i have during play.
This still also holds true for archery damage which is said in the forum to be the same as melee. That said with max bow damage + buffs + template it should be normal to do around 200 damage with a normal bow shot (x-heavy damage) on a full templated chain wearer.