Good insight there! Thanks!

I don't build my characters for power; I build them to a theme. I'm afraid that if I go Ranger, then I'll end up with (nearly) maxing both Bow and Stealth. I'm afraid that it'll prove frustrating due to the game's mechanics.

What I know right now: I'm making a Lurikeen. I could make a melee Ranger since Lurikeens can't be Blademasters, but my Ranger will have too much Bow and will gimp itself by not having Celtic Dual. Stealth looks like a lot of fun.

I still can't decide if I want to go Ranger, Hero, Champion, or Nightshade. All would be 1hand Pierce based.

Bryt wrote:becareful with the pathfinding spec line on uthgard.
the buffs are not that decent as the druid buffs, because with the archer rework after toa, the line got buffed and with this patchlevel the selfbuffs are just a Little bit better then the potions.

Potions are really low in this patch and are only 1 charge. +20 for base and +30/30 for spec. Most people will only carry 2 or 3 type of potions because inventry is so limited becuase they are only 1 charge use and only last 10 minutes. So most your enemies will have 2 spec potions up thats it

Ranger can use spec DEX/QUi which is about +60/60 and str + 51ish with your pathfinding skill at 48+11, that will also go up slighty too with realm ranks

So spec buff is atleast +30/30 higher than potion. and base str is +31 higher than potion. Also factor in you have room to carry atleast 2 types of potions so you can have the str/con and dex potions up.

Basing off most your enemies only running 2 spec potions of +30 and you running pathfinding and 2 potions you will have this over your enemy: +50dex, +30qui, +50str,

Now this will be different when you factor in the spec charges that mid has of +75str/con, in that case you still have +5 more str unless they run a charge and 2 potions which they probably will then they have +15 more str than you from buffs/potions

Ganaka wrote:

pirhana7 wrote:

Ganaka wrote:Anyone auto-training? How common are respec stones? How much money will I save if I level Fletching?

I plan doing a melee ranger. Yes i know everything about this patch and that life will be hard for a ranger. I will also be running with a NS so it shouldnt be that bad.

Yes i plan on auro training bow, but even if i was going bow spec i would still auto train as that is what i did in beta and leveling wasnt that bad . Once you auto train to level 12 you get the first crit shot opener and it becomes very easy to solo. Pathfinding buffs are very effective in a world with out buff bots.

48 path, 30 stealth, 15bow, 44pierce, 24 CD. Once you get dodger and IP you become alot stronger in melee.

Thanks! Nice to hear about auto train getting better at level 12. I will be doing a bow spec.

I like your build concept. Is 30 stealth enough in RVR? What am I losing compared to 40 or 50 stealth?

Well i am basing that spec off of being at maximum stealth at RR10. then it will be 30+20 and cap at 50. Life will be a little hard at first and i will be seen easier until i get RR up. But i plan on being with a NS friend as well as staying back away from the stealth travel spots. So i will usually get to open with Bow. I would not reccoment this stealth spec as a NS tho because you need to go right in and get close to melee open

I've been playing a ranger all beta. When leveling I tried to keep my bow equal to my level that was counting in + recurve items.

It was painful leveling until I got the Guardian bow OTD. Very gear dependent. If you can get your hands on a 99qu slow bow that is always above your current level you will be OK as long as you can afford the best arrows and match damage type to mob weakness. If you are stuck with an under-powered bow/arrows you will be living on greens and blues and sitting ALOT to heal. Yellow are 50/50 win or die without good gear.

As far as RvR...I went bow and PF heavy...My thinking was without buff bots, the self buffs would give you an edge. As I have also tried a scout, this is definitely true when you don't consider charges or potions. However my melee was awful. I don't know how many times I would attack another melee/stealth class, get them down to 25% health with bow and try to finish them with melee only to lose.

Bow damage seems low. Only using DF gear but even PF and bow specced, around 200 dmg for a regular shot and 400 for a crit against decent armor is typical. I've tried to convey that something seems off with bow damage to dev but without formulas of what it should be I can't prove it.


Even though I am not melee specced, I am not sold on the melee spec ranger. I need to see it/try it to believe it. And for me, if I am going to play an archer class, I want to be an archer..not a watered down NS without poisons.

That is just me...

But for all the negativity I posted above I an still leaning toward rolling a ranger. I just like the "sniper" play style. I will add I had no problem getting into PvE groups. Most welcomed me if they had an open spot although I didn't bring much to the table.

Did some bow dmg tests today, maybe it will help somebody decide to roll sniper

Code: Select all

------------------------------------
#Realm rank: 5l0
#Race:Lurikeen
#+13 to recurve bow from items
#+4 to pf from realm rank
#tests done only by critshot ability
#target: Level 50 Doll(was orange, 50+lvl)
------------------------------------
test1:
bow 5.4s,91%quality,16.2dps
45bow,
42pf,
augdex3,
233basedex,
--------unbuffed--------
1462WS
1474WD
233dex
capdmg 1001
--------buffed----------
1661WS
1474WD
285dex
capdmg 1001
------------------------
1)346+41
2)321+55
3)279+43
4)294+49
5)294+50
6)344+37
7)267+51
8)273+49
9)304+47
10)275+50
11)361+52
12)286+54
13)338+55
14)307+39
15)327+52
16)263+37
17)284+48
18)348+37
19)321+39
20)307+53
dmg~353,85
------------------------------------
test2:
bow 5.4s,91%quality,16.2dps
50bow,
42pf,
augdex3,
233basedex,
--------unbuffed--------
1504WS
1474WD
233dex
capdmg 1019
--------buffed----------
1708WS
1474WD
285dex
capdmg 1019
------------------------
1)370+47
2)295+43
3)299+45
4)278+49
5)301+46
6)355+49
7)270+46
8)367+48
9)274+53
10)267+52
11)348+40
12)340+49
13)295+43
14)353+45
15)359+53
16)365+39
17)325+42
18)340+48
19)355+55
20)297+38
dmg~368,75
------------------------------------
test3:
bow 5.4s,91%quality,16.2dps
45bow,
48pf,
augdex3,
233basedex,
--------unbuffed--------
1462WS
1474WD
233dex
capdmg 1001
--------buffed----------
1691WS
1474WD
293dex
capdmg 1001
------------------------
1)291+70
2)298+60
3)303+63
4)303+66
5)398+57
6)384+54
7)405+62
8)389+53
9)396+58
10)356+52
11)382+57
12)345+63
13)359+57
14)300+47
15)340+67
16)312+63
17)312+63
18)324+59
19)352+49
20)356+59
dmg~405,55
------------------------------------
test4:
bow 5.4s,91%quality,16.2dps
50bow,
48pf,
augdex3,
233basedex,
--------unbuffed--------
1504WS
1474WD
233dex
capdmg 1019
--------buffed----------
1740WS
1474WD
293dex
capdmg 1019
------------------------
1)329+52
2)358+63
3)308+53
4)391+58
5)337+56
6)322+51
7)379+62
8)341+62
9)308+61
10)396+59
11)344+68
12)329+69
13)389+56
14)412+52
15)313+68
16)408+48
17)389+59
18)296+51
19)408+66
20)391+66
dmg~416,4


-salute

[17:15:54] You prepare a critical shot
[17:15:54] You prepare your shot (4.6s to fire, target is in range)
[17:15:57] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:15:59] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 291 damage!
[17:15:59] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:03] You prepare a critical shot
[17:16:03] You prepare your shot (4.6s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:07] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:16:09] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 244 damage!
[17:16:09] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:14] You prepare your shot (3.8s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:17] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:16:19] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 167 damage!

[17:16:24] You begin casting a Perfect Acuity spell!
[17:16:26] You cast a Perfect Acuity spell!
[17:16:26] Your Dexterity has increased.
[17:16:26] Your Quickness has increased.
[17:16:26] You feel more dextrous!
[17:16:30] You prepare a critical shot
[17:16:30] You prepare your shot (3.9s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:34] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:16:35] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 285 damage!
[17:16:35] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:40] You prepare a critical shot
[17:16:40] You prepare your shot (3.9s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:44] You are ready to fire!
[17:16:44] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 263 damage!
[17:16:44] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:49] You prepare your shot (3.2s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:53] You are ready to fire!
[17:16:57] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 158 damage!
[17:16:57] You critical hit Level 50 Doll for an additional 29 damage!
[17:16:58] You prepare your shot (3.2s to fire, target is in range)
[17:17:01] You are ready to fire!
[17:17:04] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 180 damage!
[17:17:04] You critical hit Level 50 Doll for an additional 30 damage!

From my testing the dex/quick seems to only affect how long it takes you to shoot a shot. It has no minimal effect on damage for the bow. Judge for yourself it if is worth it.

Torgo wrote:[17:15:54] You prepare a critical shot
[17:15:54] You prepare your shot (4.6s to fire, target is in range)
[17:15:57] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:15:59] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 291 damage!
[17:15:59] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:03] You prepare a critical shot
[17:16:03] You prepare your shot (4.6s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:07] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:16:09] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 244 damage!
[17:16:09] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:14] You prepare your shot (3.8s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:17] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:16:19] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 167 damage!

[17:16:24] You begin casting a Perfect Acuity spell!
[17:16:26] You cast a Perfect Acuity spell!
[17:16:26] Your Dexterity has increased.
[17:16:26] Your Quickness has increased.
[17:16:26] You feel more dextrous!
[17:16:30] You prepare a critical shot
[17:16:30] You prepare your shot (3.9s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:34] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:16:35] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 285 damage!
[17:16:35] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:40] You prepare a critical shot
[17:16:40] You prepare your shot (3.9s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:44] You are ready to fire!
[17:16:44] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 263 damage!
[17:16:44] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:49] You prepare your shot (3.2s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:53] You are ready to fire!
[17:16:57] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 158 damage!
[17:16:57] You critical hit Level 50 Doll for an additional 29 damage!
[17:16:58] You prepare your shot (3.2s to fire, target is in range)
[17:17:01] You are ready to fire!
[17:17:04] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 180 damage!
[17:17:04] You critical hit Level 50 Doll for an additional 30 damage!

From my testing the dex/quick seems to only affect how long it takes you to shoot a shot. It has no minimal effect on damage for the bow. Judge for yourself it if is worth it.

I believe that is the problem with archery damage on Uthgard. They appear to be using the quickness adjusted bow speed as the SPD variable in the damage calculation formulas, when the formula appears to require the LISTED BOW SPEED instead. The SPD variable for archery is used twice in the formula and lowering it via quickness reduces the damage a good amount, which should not occur in my opinion (and from what I can gather from old websites). Once you plug in the data to the damage formula that gives the damage at 100% variance (the low end of the range if fully specced), you also need to multiply by 1.25 to get the average shot damage since it will range from 100% to 150% and the distribution is uniform.

Anyway, that is what I believe is wrong with archery damage (at least the major problem)...weapon skill may also not be calculating correctly based on the amount of dex, but that is probably not as big of a difference.

Even in their example on the following source pages they don't use the quickness adjusted speed of the bow in their regular damage shot calculations, but instead use the listed bow speed.

Base Damage at 100% variance mark =

EDPS * (your WS/target AF) * (1-absorb) * slow weap bonus * SPD * 2h weapon bonus * Arrow Bonus

SLow Weapon bonus = 1 + ( (spd - 2) x 0.03)

SPD = listed weapon speed.

Source: http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics ... anics.html

"This is the 100% mark referred by the weapon specialization section. If you are completely unspecced, then the damage variance of your weapon will fall between 25-125% of this 100% mark. If you are fully specced (or overspecced), then the damage variance will be 100-150% of this mark."

Source: http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics ... anics.html

Zansobar wrote:

Torgo wrote:[17:15:54] You prepare a critical shot
[17:15:54] You prepare your shot (4.6s to fire, target is in range)
[17:15:57] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:15:59] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 291 damage!
[17:15:59] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:03] You prepare a critical shot
[17:16:03] You prepare your shot (4.6s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:07] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:16:09] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 244 damage!
[17:16:09] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:14] You prepare your shot (3.8s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:17] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:16:19] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 167 damage!

[17:16:24] You begin casting a Perfect Acuity spell!
[17:16:26] You cast a Perfect Acuity spell!
[17:16:26] Your Dexterity has increased.
[17:16:26] Your Quickness has increased.
[17:16:26] You feel more dextrous!
[17:16:30] You prepare a critical shot
[17:16:30] You prepare your shot (3.9s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:34] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:16:35] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 285 damage!
[17:16:35] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:40] You prepare a critical shot
[17:16:40] You prepare your shot (3.9s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:44] You are ready to fire!
[17:16:44] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 263 damage!
[17:16:44] You abort your critical shot
[17:16:49] You prepare your shot (3.2s to fire, target is in range)
[17:16:53] You are ready to fire!
[17:16:57] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 158 damage!
[17:16:57] You critical hit Level 50 Doll for an additional 29 damage!
[17:16:58] You prepare your shot (3.2s to fire, target is in range)
[17:17:01] You are ready to fire!
[17:17:04] You shot Level 50 Doll with your Exquisite Infernal Malison Recurve Bow and hit for 180 damage!
[17:17:04] You critical hit Level 50 Doll for an additional 30 damage!

From my testing the dex/quick seems to only affect how long it takes you to shoot a shot. It has no minimal effect on damage for the bow. Judge for yourself it if is worth it.

I believe that is the problem with archery damage on Uthgard. They appear to be using the quickness adjusted bow speed as the SPD variable in the damage calculation formulas, when the formula appears to require the LISTED BOW SPEED instead. The SPD variable for archery is used twice in the formula and lowering it via quickness reduces the damage a good amount, which should not occur in my opinion (and from what I can gather from old websites). Once you plug in the data to the damage formula that gives the damage at 100% variance (the low end of the range if fully specced), you also need to multiply by 1.25 to get the average shot damage since it will range from 100% to 150% and the distribution is uniform.

Anyway, that is what I believe is wrong with archery damage (at least the major problem)...weapon skill may also not be calculating correctly based on the amount of dex, but that is probably not as big of a difference.

Even in their example on the following source pages they don't use the quickness adjusted speed of the bow in their regular damage shot calculations, but instead use the listed bow speed.

Base Damage at 100% variance mark =

EDPS * (your WS/target AF) * (1-absorb) * slow weap bonus * SPD * 2h weapon bonus * Arrow Bonus

SLow Weapon bonus = 1 + ( (spd - 2) x 0.03)

SPD = listed weapon speed.

Source: http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics ... anics.html

"This is the 100% mark referred by the weapon specialization section. If you are completely unspecced, then the damage variance of your weapon will fall between 25-125% of this 100% mark. If you are fully specced (or overspecced), then the damage variance will be 100-150% of this mark."

Source: http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics ... anics.html

That makes sense. Now if you can just convince dev of that...

I guess the question i don't know the answer to is does Quickness reduce the damage on styled mellee attacks? I know it reduces auto attack (unstyled damage) to keep the dps the same, but I do not believe it reduces style damage. I believe quickness makes it so you can style faster, correct?

Anyway, if the above is true, since any attack with a bow is style damage (it uses endurance) quickness should not reduce the damage, only speed up the attacks. Even if the above is not true I believe from the source I posted in my prior post that the spd of bow used in the damage calculations should not be the quickness adjusted amount, but instead just the listed bow speed.

I feel as though unless you're planning on running with a small stealth group, leeching kills, keep defence or just following zergs when you can, NS is the way to go. I really enjoyed my scout (though he was Mordred), I had two hunters as well. Archery has a great feel in this game w/ the stealth that goes with it. Just what I have read, I don't want to feel gimped and will probably roll a NS instead as my solo stealth class.

So has this bow dammage been looked into?

If so what did they find. And did they fix it. As them number seem really really low

Lazyghost wrote:So has this bow dammage been looked into?

If so what did they find. And did they fix it. As them number seem really really low

The issue has been confirmed: https://www2.uthgard.net/tracker/issue/ ... _bow_speed

I'm glad I brought this to the attention of the forum, even though I didn't go ahead and create an issue tracker report myself. It seems like it will be a simple fix in their damage formula but it might take them quite awhile to look into it.

Zansobar wrote:I'm glad I brought this to the attention of the forum, even though I didn't go ahead and create an issue tracker report myself. It seems like it will be a simple fix in their damage formula but it might take them quite awhile to look into it.

5hats great news. What will this mean dammage wise if hey fix it

Lazyghost wrote:

Zansobar wrote:I'm glad I brought this to the attention of the forum, even though I didn't go ahead and create an issue tracker report myself. It seems like it will be a simple fix in their damage formula but it might take them quite awhile to look into it.

5hats great news. What will this mean dammage wise if hey fix it

It could be as much as an 80% increase in bow damage if you had a 40% reduction in bow speed from quickness (that was not supposed to reduce bow damage formulas). My assumptions were based on a 5.4 speed bow lowering to 3.2 seconds per shot (i'm not sure if that is the correct speed reduction but if it was it should be about 80% increase in bow shot damage from the boost to slow weapon bonus and the SPD factor in the formula). This seems about right to me for end results on bow damage per shot. Bow damage should NOT be doing 250 -300 per crit and thus half that on a normal shot. With a MP bow you could probably see almost a doubling of the overall bow damage reported in the tests above.