Hybrid spec mana/void Eld? And question about resistances

Geff
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Postby Geff » Mar 13, 2017 23:50

I've been thinking about doing a build focused on long range damage.

Tentative build idea: 37 Mana / 39 Void

Reasoning for Void is 1) the high rank spec bolt, 2) the second rank of energy resistance debuff 3) I think that full mana is more for close pbaoe'rs than for long range damagers ( am I wrong?).

The combo would be: Spec bolt > base bolt > energy resistance debuff > The mana line spells which all do energy damage. Pbaoe only if enemies catch up or get close.

Now the question is how does enemy resistance factor into damage calculation? I couldn't find a formula anywhere. Would the mana line spells do respectable damage with the energy resistance debuff while I'm waiting for bolt cooldown?

As far as I know, the Void line is the only line with an energy resistance debuff in hibernia. I can see this potentially making them an asset in a group with a mana enchanter (are they common?) or another mana eldritch.

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Postby Dranith » Mar 14, 2017 16:16

I think this is a good idea in theory, but I don't think it would work out very well in practice. Debuffing for your own damage doesn't really work out too well as you're probably better off just getting the higher tier damage instead of the debuff. Also, mana chanters aren't brought into pvp for their pbaoe, they're primarily brought out for their heat debuff for the light spec chanters/eld/ment to nuke.

Personally, I'd really recommend to pick either mana or void and do a more traditional fullspec/subspec rather than a split spec.

If you do go void though, you may want to make friends with an arb animist, because your body debuff would cause their bombers to hit really really hard, unfortunately they're just not as common as light spec magicians.
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Postby Geff » Mar 14, 2017 23:23

Does anyone know the damage formula with resistance factored in? Really the effectiveness of the build idea hinges on it. I haven't played the game before so I don't know how much more damage you typically do with resistances debuffed. I imagine that on squishier targets the bolts should almost kill them so the debuff won't be necessary. On tankier targets or with bolts on cooldown is when I will be needing the debuff.

Then again I have never played daoc before and haven't played eld so i have no idea about the damage numbers.

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Postby Ghast_Bors » Mar 15, 2017 12:47

I don't think you're going to find many opportunities to use the energy debuff in combination with pbaoe. Usually you're going to be using pbaoe to bomb a bunch of targets at once so you're not going to have time to single debuff all of those targets first before you move in to bomb. Especially not in RvR because after you cast one or two debuffs you're going to have someone beating on you. Pbaoe does plenty of damage on it's own so there really is no need to debuff for it. The time spent casting energy debuffs isn't worth the extra damage that you would gain from them when you compare the damage output with how much total damage you would have done if you had just bombed instead.

If you really want to go void, go for it, but you're better off making your second spec light so that you can assist on the chanter's heat debuff train with your baseline heat dd and still do okay damage. This will also give you access to some form of nearsight which is pretty much the most devastating spell in the entire game, imo.

If respecs were pretty easy to come by I'd say to try out your idea and see how it goes, but since they're not, I wouldn't recommend it.
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Postby Geff » Mar 16, 2017 08:11

The main reasoning for going Void is the two bolts which seem to do a lot burst of damage, but more importantly long range damage.

I tested damage of bolt vs. damage of Mana long range DD in Thidranki. Eventhough I haven't put any points in void and put all my points in mana, I've found that the baseline bolt still does more damage than the mana spec single target DD and slow ability while having significantly shorter cast speed. That's huge! I can't imagine how much damage it would do specced.

I really don't want to be a bomber because I don't want to go to close range and I prefer to kite if I can help it. The resistance debuffs are for some additional utility and damage while bolts are on cooldown.

I expect I won't be using the debuff all the time. Maybe on tanky frontlines to help not only my own non-bolt damage, but also the damage of my allies if they use energy damage spells.

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Postby barto22 » Mar 16, 2017 09:22

Geff wrote:The main reasoning for going Void is the two bolts which seem to do a lot burst of damage, but more importantly long range damage.

I tested damage of bolt vs. damage of Mana long range DD in Thidranki. Eventhough I haven't put any points in void and put all my points in mana, I've found that the baseline bolt still does more damage than the mana spec single target DD and slow ability while having significantly shorter cast speed. That's huge! I can't imagine how much damage it would do specced.

I really don't want to be a bomber because I don't want to go to close range and I prefer to kite if I can help it. The resistance debuffs are for some additional utility and damage while bolts are on cooldown.

I expect I won't be using the debuff all the time. Maybe on tanky frontlines to help not only my own non-bolt damage, but also the damage of my allies if they use energy damage spells.


Bolts can miss, can be blocked and don't work on targets already engaged in combat (citation?).

Void debuffs in combination with animist bombers is their bread and butter really.

As for mana spec, your use comes with disease and snare.

Each off spec should be light unless running with another eld. This is for nearsight.

If not planning on running with another eld or animist I would recommend speccing light with off spec as mana.

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Postby Geff » Mar 20, 2017 04:30

Would going 45 Light be a better option if I want Long range DD? It would result in less burst damage than the Void/Moon build I'm guessing, but would the long range DD still be competitive?

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Postby Pinot » Mar 20, 2017 14:01

I'm not terribly sure how the 1.65 patch factors in my understanding, but here's what I can contribute. Resistance will vary between PvE and PvP, the sole difference being that PvE relies on a formula based on number of attackers vs. a target to lower the "to hit" value. This is why pet spam (e.g. FnF Turrets) isn't just valuable, it's required in certain encounters where mob levels are much higher than that of players, particularly dragons, Legion, etc.

The Void Eldritch's bolts scale up in level, so using higher level bolts will yield higher ratio of hits versus misses against same-level attackers (e.g. in RvR). In PvE, using these in groups will probably get you dead, so debuffing and GT PBAOE is preferable here (while this damage type will have a higher resistance rate). The Moon line is more often preferred by PvE Eldriches but in keep defense I imagine this could be quite useful -- a bit rougher on moving and/or close range targets no doubt.

That said, the spec you outline above is interesting. I would be curious though if you'd be gimping yourself a little by not taking one of those lines higher than the other, depending on which line you prefer over the other.
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Postby barto22 » Mar 20, 2017 15:19

Geff wrote:Would going 45 Light be a better option if I want Long range DD? It would result in less burst damage than the Void/Moon build I'm guessing, but would the long range DD still be competitive?


Well, yes and no. The trouble is that daoc is not a 1 class game. Each class can compliment each other. It would be easier to say that light is better than void for example. But it can all be really dependent on group composition.

I'd say that the most common group compositions will include a light eld as they bring much needed utility to the group. You can then compliment the light eld by adding a mana chanter for the heat debuff and also add a mentalist to then compliment the enchanter. He enchanter or mentalist being alone in a group won't be as useful unless they are complimenting another person.

This can be said with a void spec eld. It could be great, but it would be better if it were to compliment another characters spec.

I'm struggling to get out what I'm trying to explain here I guess but the bottom line is that a light eld doesn't need another class to compliment it. The specline is already useful enough on its own.

Hope that makes some sort of sense.


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Postby Geff » Mar 21, 2017 05:07

barto22 wrote:Bolts can miss, can be blocked and don't work on targets already engaged in combat (citation?).

Can confirm this is not true.

I'm currently full mana build for PvE, however I've used baseline bolts from time to time in single target situations. Until around lvl 30'ish the baseline bolt was outdamaging the single target DD and slow from the mana line. Now the single target DD in the Mana line is outdamaging the bolt. Ofcourse this was expected eventhough the tooltip number in the bolt is way higher than the tooltip number in mana single target DD.

I have never had a bolt resisted, ever. I have missed bolt very infrequently. This gives me the impression that bolts can possibly never be resisted, but they follow similar hit/miss rules to melee attacks?

I've read that bolts can be blocked with shields. I'm not too concerned about this as most people in RvR from my knowledge use 2H, or the characters that do have shields don't have high shield spec for high block chance. Furthermore, block only works when being hit from a frontal arc.

I plan on lvling to 50 with mana spec 48 mana/24 light. I might go void hybrid at a later time, but I'm having a lot of doubts based on feedback here.

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Postby Grignr » Mar 22, 2017 16:55

1.52: A NOTE ON BOLTS

A quick note of explanation about bolt spells. As every "robe" caster knows, bolt spells are intended to hit targets that are not in combat. They do much more damage than direct damage spells, but they are usable only in certain situations. A bug was fixed in 1.52C which changes how the game determines if a player or monster is "in combat" - now to be truly flagged as in combat, you must actively be attacking someone (or something) else. Previously, large numbers of players would be flagged as "in combat" when they were in fact not actively engaging someone. So, theoretically, that change made bolts easier to use in RvR, although they still will not be usable in all situations.

1.62: - Re-tuned the way Bolt spell damage is assessed. You should now see Bolt damages raised, especially when hitting lightly armored targets.

- We found and fixed the infamous "Block/Parry bug" - the one that caused players to block and parry less often when attacked by a grouped opponent. This change will have the most effect in RvR situations where you are fighting an opponent who is in a group. This fix will also fix an issue with opponents appearing to be "in melee" and having bolt spells fired at them blocked more often than intended.


Bolts chance to hit should definitely be affected if the target is in combat.

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Postby Pinot » Mar 23, 2017 00:00

Grignr wrote:Bolts chance to hit should definitely be affected if the target is in combat.


Affected, yes. Miss entirely, no.

It reads that they cranked up the "miss chance" calculation a bit when targets are in combat. If they meant that it would make targets completely immune to bolts, that's what they should, and probably would have written.
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Postby barto22 » Mar 23, 2017 00:06

Pinot wrote:
Grignr wrote:Bolts chance to hit should definitely be affected if the target is in combat.


Affected, yes. Miss entirely, no.

It reads that they cranked up the "miss chance" calculation a bit when targets are in combat. If they meant that it would make targets completely immune to bolts, that's what they should, and probably would have written.


I'm not so sure I agree. I definitely remember seeing some ingame wording something like, "your spell misses because you target is engaged" or something along those lines. From that quote it would seem that they fixed a bug that made people in combat even though they were not in combat. It doesn't say anything about cranking up the miss chance of the spell.

I wouldn't be surprised about mythic should have/would have written. More often than not it doesn't make sense or is just not documented at all.

EDIT : It even says that bolts can only be used in certain situations. That, to me, says that you cant just use them on cooldown on any target.
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Postby Grignr » Mar 23, 2017 12:55

Yeah, look at the language used:

"intended to hit targets that are not in combat"

So they shouldn't hit targets that are in combat.

"will not be usable in all situations"

Will not, not reduced effectiveness.

"having bolt spells fired at them blocked more often than intended"

Blocking in this game is a complete negation not a drop in damage.

And yes I seem to remember similar "your spell misses" messages both on RM and Shaman bolts.

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Postby Geff » Mar 27, 2017 03:07

Where does it say "intended to hit targets that are not in combat"? It does not say that in the in-game spell description. Not sure where you guys are getting this from as it's the first time I've heard this. I think something like not usable in combat would be important enough to show in the in-game description. Bolts work on mobs that are actively engaged in combat. I haven't tested it in RvR thoroughly.

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