Pierce vs. Crush vs. Slash

Falken
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Postby Falken » Dec 17, 2016 07:19

More paper daoc, I know I know.

http://camelot.allakhazam.com/weapon_effect.html

Current spec I am planning to go is 39pierce/50CD/42shield/rest parry

I personally went with pierce because all of the priority targets that I want to ensure drop fast are vuln to pierce, sure some are resistant, but that is the game you play with weapon choice.

Which weapon are you choosing and why? Pros/Cons?

I think my only resignation to going pierce is the lack of slow piercers compared to the other types, so would the damage of being neutral to most everybody (crush) be made up for by having slower weapons? That is really my only thing I need to explore further. Current slowest speed for crush = 4.2 and Pierce = 3.9 (SI loot drops a 4.3 Pierce, but we won't live to see SI content added to this server)
Last edited by Falken on Dec 19, 2016 21:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Wyndhm
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Postby Wyndhm » Dec 18, 2016 19:11

I am planning on the same exact spec for my Blademaster for the same reasons you mentioned. Most priority chain-wearing targets are vulnerable to pierce. Yet, in addition to the lack of slower weapons (until SI is released), you'll have to be on non-chain-wearing targets eventually and they will be resistant to you.

isocleas2
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Postby isocleas2 » Dec 18, 2016 23:43

What do you consider priority targets? I'm not sure what group set-ups you expect to run in but I remember alot of hib groups would drop the mid light tanks first since they'd often overextend. If those are your first targets Pierce is probably not the best choice. If you're chasing healers/shamans it would be a different story.

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Damsjp
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Postby Damsjp » Dec 19, 2016 00:07

This is the template I would do if I do a BM.
- 50 CS for Supernova and also get maximum chance hit with left hand.
- 39 Piercing, coz you have also the snare from side better than the slash one (time/dmg ect). Plus open on the 39 style piercing quiet good GR. (44 piercing or 50 are useless bleeding styl)
- 42 shield, unless you solo or you play sure 100% in assist with a shield, it can be discuss but... well ...let's just have slam honestly.
- rest parry

I don't talk about crush which I don't see any advantage in 8vs8.

Regarding slash or thrust.. it's depend what you gonna play.. so your targets.
If you play all the time as a peeler (like in a caster comp), slash can be an option, coz you get bonus on savage/zerk.
If you are piercing you get malus on zerk/savage/armsman which will probably be your main target as peeler.
In other hand piercing you get bonus on mercenary which is not too bad as peeler, plus as offensive bm : shaman/healer/cleric/minstrel which will be your first target (with the mages, but neutral armor).
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Falken
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Postby Falken » Dec 19, 2016 07:15

Planning to primarily play in 8v8 as bard/bard/druid/druid/eld/hero/bm/X

The weapon spec styles won't get much use, sure the pierce side snare is .03 greater with its 2nd style being .05, but back styles are typically easier than side styles unless target is stunned or accepting their defeat. Snow Shower > Thunderstorm is just as viable as Copperhead > Cobra's Bite with the added bonus of being back style. If it was a viable kill target then I would be using Slam (because leading with ice storm puts them stun immune and this gives you more stun time than leading with IS) > Ice Storm > Tempest > Supernova. Obviously using the 3 style CD chain isn't something you want to get in the habit of doing due to 2nd style bleed, but it is our main dps chain and significantly higher than anything else.

From the research I remember doing back at the beginning of beta I pretty much told myself it was between pierce and crush, so somewhere along the line slash just didn't seem viable (I don't recall the exact reasoning).

edit: Snow Shower > Thunderstorm vs Copperhead > Cobra's Bite - http://imgur.com/a/H3qqM

41+9 in piercing, 50+15 CD - firb 225 str/148 dex/115 quick (15 str 10 dex starting stats) all stats capped, RR5 (no dps RAs)
Keep in mind these DF pierce weapons are completely trash and way to fast to actually get an idea for damage at 50, but just look at the differences in the style damage. Looks to me like Snow Shower is hitting a bit harder than Cobra's bite, despite having a lower growth rate, so I will stick to using primarily CD skills :grin:
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isocleas2
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Postby isocleas2 » Dec 19, 2016 08:35

I don't like Pierce for your setup. About the only time I see as a superior choice is if you run an all naturalist and tank group, that's the only time I can see your first targets being thrust weak since healers + shamans will be on the menu.

If you're running one or two casters that's probably one or two more than the mids are so you'll be kiting and dropping light tanks, better to be slash or even crush.

Against albs it's just the opposite I expect most alb groups to have 2-4 casters and you'll be pushing them more often than not. In which case it doesn't matter much what weapon line you put points in, by the time you're hitting something that's not wearing cloth the fight is over.

Also there were more armsman than there were mercs on beta and I don't expect that to change for live. Slash > Crush > Pierce imo

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Postby Falken » Dec 19, 2016 10:14

isocleas2 wrote:I don't like Pierce for your setup. About the only time I see as a superior choice is if you run an all naturalist and tank group, that's the only time I can see your first targets being thrust weak since healers + shamans will be on the menu.

If you're running one or two casters that's probably one or two more than the mids are so you'll be kiting and dropping light tanks, better to be slash or even crush.

Against albs it's just the opposite I expect most alb groups to have 2-4 casters and you'll be pushing them more often than not. In which case it doesn't matter much what weapon line you put points in, by the time you're hitting something that's not wearing cloth the fight is over.

Also there were more armsman than there were mercs on beta and I don't expect that to change for live. Slash > Crush > Pierce imo


Appreciate your input, about the only thing I have left to figure out before launch and not proving an easy decision.
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Postby Evinac » Dec 19, 2016 15:58

I'm going blunt. IIRC, mids are neutral to crush across the board, same for albs with slash.

Alb 8mans are likely to be caster grps, then the melee dmg type doesn't really matter. If there are alb tank grps, I'd want the extra bonus from crush vs the best abs armor in the game. Also not sure if a 3.9 pierce will break 100dmg on a pally or arms.

The no SI thing is kinda of a deal breaker for pierce here... kinda curious how the stealthers are approaching this, but i digress.

The question I'm personally having a hard time with is: slam vs highest WS possible with 50/50 CD/weapon spec.

And I know we're talking 8vs8 here, but Blunt also has a 10sec stun on a 2nd style in the after parry chain, lvl 39 style -> lvl 50 style, that I can't stop drooling over, for those lonely late night solo runs in Odin's... :idea:
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Falken
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Postby Falken » Dec 19, 2016 21:25

Evinac wrote:I'm going blunt. IIRC, mids are neutral to crush across the board, same for albs with slash.

Alb 8mans are likely to be caster grps, then the melee dmg type doesn't really matter. If there are alb tank grps, I'd want the extra bonus from crush vs the best abs armor in the game. Also not sure if a 3.9 pierce will break 100dmg on a pally or arms.

The no SI thing is kinda of a deal breaker for pierce here... kinda curious how the stealthers are approaching this, but i digress.

The question I'm personally having a hard time with is: slam vs highest WS possible with 50/50 CD/weapon spec.

And I know we're talking 8vs8 here, but Blunt also has a 10sec stun on a 2nd style in the after parry chain, lvl 39 style -> lvl 50 style, that I can't stop drooling over, for those lonely late night solo runs in Odin's... :idea:


Pretty sure composite 50 of weapon choice and 50+11+RR are minimal differences in WS, or at least that is the common idea going around regarding those. Slam is too good to pass up, and if you ever plan to pug on Uthgard people will want you to have slam. I can understand your point of view, but my BM is strictly for group play so the parry chain doesn't really appeal to me, if we aren't running our 8 man then I will likely be working on my alt or crafting. Thanks for your insight, I do agree that @ max of 3.9 speed w/o SI weaps pierce is definitely not a clear winner here.

As far as your question 9 sec anytime stun is to good to pass up, there may be groups you run in where you have a dedicated hero doing the peeling and everything is stun immune, but there may be times where you have to fill that role in a caster setup and no slam = no group invite. Up to you, if you really want a definitive answer you could make your char with composite 50 weapon and then 50 spec weapon to see the WS difference, hit the dummy in both setups with the same skills/weapons and see a difference.
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Damsjp
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Postby Damsjp » Dec 19, 2016 21:39

3.9 thrust in main hand thats bit ****** I admit. Also against tank mid is not super, and against armsman too... but you can't have all. Really depend when you will start, you will see what you target the most. There is not perfect choice in this.
Regarding speed weapon in piercing, It should be better with SI, you can get 4.3 thrust in galla but proc dot, after anyway you make bleeding with tempest..so, doesnt matter anymore, lets full damage.
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Falken
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Postby Falken » Dec 19, 2016 23:12

Damsjp wrote:3.9 thrust in main hand thats bit ****** I admit. Also against tank mid is not super, and against armsman too... but you can't have all. Really depend when you will start, you will see what you target the most. There is not perfect choice in this.
Regarding speed weapon in piercing, It should be better with SI, you can get 4.3 thrust in galla but proc dot, after anyway you make bleeding with tempest..so, doesnt matter anymore, lets full damage.


Yep, if we had SI drops as we should than pierce would be a clear choice, unfortunately it is as you said a bit of a tossup. I am sure that we will see WAYYYYY more mids in the frontiers than albs, so its better to gear towards beating them up rather than albs, plus albs will be mostly caster groups which are neutral regardless. WTB SI DROPS :(
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